Author Topic: Grumph / Tri-Greeves  (Read 2869 times)

iansoady

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2023, 11:06:24 AM »
I expect yopu've all had sleepless nights worrying about how I've been getting on with the project. Fear not - all will be revealed.

I'm still waiting with my fingers crossed for my V5C to arrive. They haven't cashed my cheque yet. So am occupying myself by doing various dry (and wet) builds of the engine. I've now completed the bottom end - some of which is odd to my mind. As well as giving a torque figure for the big end nuts Triumph also specify a stretch on the bolt of .004" to .005". I think I've got it right....

Despite having mismatched crankcases from different years not to mention different capacities, the bottom end and timing gear has all gone together remarkably well. There's no perceptible step between the case sides at the barrel face and the crank and camshafts all spin easily. So I'm hopeful about that side.

Less so about the notorious pushrod tube sealing which has had me scratching my head for ages. There is an annular seal at the bottom of the tube which fits over the tappet block and a Viton ring which sits in the head to seal the top flange of the tube. The book and all the "experts" I've consulted say there should be .040" - .060" "crush" on this top ring when the head is bolted down. However, assembling with no seals at all leaves the head floating .040" or so above the barrel face - which coincidentally is close to the thickness of the head gasket. I measured this using plasticine in the joint and tightening the head down with no gasket.

Obviously, putting seals in would mean that there would be no clamping force on the head gasket at all. So after much thought I've decided to turn .060" off the bases of the pushrod tubes to allow them to sit further down and get this crush. What can possibly go wrong? More to the point, why do I need to do this? My only theory is that the head face has been skimmed at some point. Remember that this engine is being built from a fairly random selection of bits which someone else has discarded after selecting better ones.

Just looking at the photos I have to make sure that the reduced portion of the tube won't catch on the tappet block. And of course I will have to deal with any effects on valve / pushrod geometry if as I suspect the head has been skimmed.

Some photos:

This is the barrel after tightening down the head showing the flattened plasticine.



This shows how the pushrod tube sits on the tappet block.



Another view showing the flange at the top of the tube and the (annealed) head gasket - which by the way was rock hard when it arrived.



This is the recess in the head that the flange fits into.



The first pushrod tube in the 4 jaw chuck - it's too big for the 3 jaw.



And this is the Viton sealing ring which is .090" thick uncompressed.




Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958(ish) Grumph.....

iansoady

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2023, 10:50:40 AM »
And what arrived in the post today? A V5C with the correct details including the currently fitted Villiers 9E engine. Oddly enough DVLA don't seem to havebothered cashing my cheque! So onward and upward.  I have completed the Triumph bottom end which all looks good and have just trial assembled the top end to check valve / rocker action which all seem to work well.

I'm not finally fitting all that at this stage as it will make the engine unit very heavy - I anticipate plenty of juggling to get everything in line even using engine plates made by Phil Hyde, a respected Grumph builder.
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958(ish) Grumph.....

CrazyFrog

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2023, 09:40:38 AM »
And what arrived in the post today? A V5C with the correct details including the currently fitted Villiers 9E engine. Oddly enough DVLA don't seem to havebothered cashing my cheque! So onward and upward.  I have completed the Triumph bottom end which all looks good and have just trial assembled the top end to check valve / rocker action which all seem to work well.

I'm not finally fitting all that at this stage as it will make the engine unit very heavy - I anticipate plenty of juggling to get everything in line even using engine plates made by Phil Hyde, a respected Grumph builder.

Happy to pop round and lend a hand to help fitting the engine Ian, if you think it would help...
2023 Royal Enfield Meteor 350
2021 Honda CB125F

iansoady

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2023, 10:24:39 AM »
Many thanks Pete, I'll bear that in mind. If you get an anguished call from Redditch.....

It'll be quite a while before I'm at that stage however.
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958(ish) Grumph.....

iansoady

  • Posts: 1647
Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2023, 02:11:06 PM »
Just when it was all going so well.....

The bloke who's making the engine plates tells me the frame is bent. Apparently this is very common. I have a number of options, the easiest of which is to put the whole lot on ebay. But I'm made of slightly sterner stuff. In truth it doesn't look that bad to me - but what do I know?



But off to France for 3 weeks shortly so all troubles will be forgotten in a haze of good wine & food....
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958(ish) Grumph.....

CrazyFrog

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2023, 03:58:38 PM »
Eek! I know it's an alloy frame, but it doesn't look like it needs more than a little tweak to me...
2023 Royal Enfield Meteor 350
2021 Honda CB125F

Moto63

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2023, 04:11:58 PM »
Absolutely, nothing that a big hammer wouldn’t cure 🤦???🤦???😁
Ps.. I am joking
Name withheld to protect the innocent 😉

iansoady

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2023, 08:54:10 AM »
One of the gurus in the Greeves Roders Association tells me that a big scaffold pole is the answer. But I'm scared......
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958(ish) Grumph.....

Itsme

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #23 on: May 30, 2023, 05:04:33 PM »
Hi Ian

Sounds like you are putting your previous engineering experience to good use. It is that which always stops me taking on a project like this not having been an engineer and knowing that at some point for a project like this something will need turning or milling etc. I could wipe its bum, but don't ask me to ream anything (reaming people is definitely frowned upon in care work!).

As for the bent frame, it doesn't look very bent so does it depend on how fast you are going to ride the finished bike? That might be a naive question, but might also be relevant.

Anyway keep up the great work as you always seem to be working on projects that I would if I was of any practical use.

Ian

CrazyFrog

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #24 on: May 30, 2023, 06:23:52 PM »
I'm sure you already know Ian, but the Greeves company has been reborn. Might be worth asking their advice?

http://www.greevesmotorcyclesltd.com/
2023 Royal Enfield Meteor 350
2021 Honda CB125F

iansoady

  • Posts: 1647
Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2023, 08:57:36 AM »
I've heard some questionable stuff about the new Greeves company Pete. The Greeves Riders' Association has some really knowledgeable and helpful people but of course most come from a purist point of view where if something isn't exactly as it "should" be then it must be dealt with. By all accounts these frames commonly bend and I expect there are loads running around in that state.

For comparison this is one from one of said gurus..... Looks significantly worse than mine.

Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958(ish) Grumph.....

themoudie

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2023, 01:18:10 PM »
Aye Ian,

I bet that handled like a navvie waltzing up the street after a night on the bevvy!  ;)

Did it " ...... just happen"? Or, was some part of the scenery involved in an abrupt halt to progress? Hopefully, it was the latter and not the former, or else I would suspect CocaCola/ pot metal, rather than ex WWII airplane aluminium alloy! Surely Bert wouldn't use something shonky?

Hope you get yours "unbent", with a large scaffold pole and some heat in short order.

Good health, Bill

iansoady

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #27 on: June 12, 2023, 02:49:17 PM »
Here are my engine plates. The bloke making them - who is very well respected in Tri-Greeves circles - reckones he can compenstae for the bend by adjusting the sizes of spacers which he has to make anyway. So here's hoping.
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500
1958(ish) Grumph.....

Itsme

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #28 on: June 12, 2023, 03:02:24 PM »
Its really nice to see work done by people who know what they're doing. Those look lovely and make the project a little bit more real.

Ian

Moto63

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Re: Grumph / Tri-Greeves
« Reply #29 on: June 12, 2023, 06:11:46 PM »
Its really nice to see work done by people who know what they're doing. Those look lovely and make the project a little bit more real.

Ian
Yes don’t they just. Look really good, plus good news for Ian that he can hopefully compensate for the twist in the frame. 🤞
Cheers, Michael