Author Topic: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?  (Read 700 times)

themoudie

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Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« on: August 22, 2015, 10:20:09 PM »
A tale of woe. :(

Morini 125H been sitting for a long while. All connections individually cleaned and remade. New charged battery fitted and upon turning the ignition key, sidelights, rear light and headlight all worked. Indicators and horn, nothing? :-\  So checked wiring, could find nothing wrong and rang NLM; "Ignition and sparks completely separate, so applied petrol, turned on taps, float sticks, then frees off. :o  Mop up. Kick over and she fires up, try and sort 'tick-over', sort of but not right. Try the lights, nothing, absolutely zilch, anywhere and the 30Amp fuse is still OK!  ::)

Carby strip again tomorrow and then start applying the meter! Italian electrics and 6v to boot!  ???

Sensible suggestions on a postcard and I'll post findings and thanks as the 'Inquisition' progresses. :-X

Thank you for the pressure relief valve.

My regards, Bill

iansoady

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2015, 09:17:12 AM »
A quick google shows up this: http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/tech.html - worth joining the club I would have thought.

Also this:  http://morini.mayoreric.com/images/cowiring.jpg
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500

SteveC#222

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2015, 09:53:46 AM »
Ah...electrickery....black magic!

Can't really help much Bill,  lighting coil?....if it's any help I have a very good E manual on bike electrics I can Email you a copy if you need it.
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional!

Propellor

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2015, 10:45:18 AM »
Good luck finding it.

Hopefully cunning and a multimeter will sort it!
BEIGE is all the rage

themoudie

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2015, 09:10:27 PM »
Thank you all for your responses. Being a delinquent, and with the sun shining, a strong but balmy east wind blowing, the decision was made to go for a run rather than swear in the workshop. Plenty of space on the single track roads and stayed away from the tourist 'honey pots', that were mobbed.

Gave directions to a very harassed GSXR 1000 rider and his wife who had been caught up in the queues (6 miles with a jammed coach and lorry at it head on the diversion route) after an 86 year old motorcyclist was involved in a double collision on the A82 north of Luss, unfortunately the gentleman died at the scene I believe (my condolences to his family) and the road remained closed for over 6 hours. The GSXR rider had been trying to get to Fort William via A82, then A85 and Glen Coe, but his map (1:500,000) download of roads north of Inverness wasn't helpful and they turned up in Aberfoyle at the back of 17:00 trying to go North! ??? Directed them off towards Callendar, with instructions and can only hope they found somewhere to lay their heads as their eyes were on stalks! ::)

We continued the canter via David Stirling's memorial, up to Sheriffmuir and demolished roast leg of lamb with trimmings, followed by panna cotta, with fresh soft fruit and cream.  :P The best panna cotta in my 60+ years. Difficulty holding the bikes up outside the inn, due to the wind, but once underway a tacking style into wind made good progress and we came home at the back of 20:00hrs, plump and with 150 miles of good riding under the belt.

Morini the Minx tomorrow when the rain arrives.   ;)

My regards, Bill

Propellor

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2015, 05:56:49 AM »
Good decision bill.

I too got 200 in across back roads yesterday morning. Glorious weather but a lot of (expected) gravel and muck washed out from a very heavy downpour Saturday evening.
BEIGE is all the rage

themoudie

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2022, 12:06:19 AM »
This hoary old chestnut returns!

Is anybody any good with CDI ignition diagnosis, PLEASE?  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(  This is a Ducati Electronica system that has the battery charging coils and the ignition power and trigger coils mounted on a common stator plate, with the timing of the ignition spark controlled by a trigger inside the keyed flywheel and an electronic advance circuit within the combined transducer/ coil unit. Similar to equipment fitted to Vespa and Lambretta scooters. BeadSpeed have supplied replacement parts that I have fitted and the engine now idles, but appears to retard the ignition rather than advance it as the revs rise! ::)

I am no further forward with the "Morini the Minx"! Having replaced the ignition power coil, the ignition trigger coil on the stator, the transducer/coil, HT lead, spark plug cap and spark plug and plagued the Morini Riders Club gurus since 2015, all to no avail! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

At present, the engine idles steadily at 1,300 to 1,400rpm. If the throttle is opened slowly, the revs rise gradually, the ignition timing mark ('ANT') on the flywheel can be seen to move in a clockwise direction, consequently on a clockwise rotating crankshaft this is further retarding the ignition timing, I THINK ??????? ?!  :-\  No wonder the engine cuts out and the exhaust pipe glows red.

The engine is supposed to run 36° advance BTDC. Reverting to the original transducer/coil produces the same result, with the 'ANT'  mark moving to the right (clockwise), in the same direction as the rotation of the crank?

Answers will be gratefully received and with my limited electrickery ability I shall try to implement them. The professional coil winders, stator rebuilders, have either lost their staff due to retirement, found alternative employment or just aren't interested.

I have also asked The MRC membership for info. advice as well.

Thank you for your time, Bill

johnr

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2022, 02:38:10 PM »
how is the ignition advanced and retarded? mechanically by bobweights, or electronically? if its the first, has anybody had the bobweights apart and possibly put something in backwards, if its electronically then the fault would seem to be with the electronics.

iansoady

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2022, 03:36:11 PM »
Hi Bill.

You say the engine rotates clockwise and the timing mark moves further clockwise as it speeds up. That suggests that it is in fact advancing although my brain is a bit sluggish at the moment. Maybe you're thinking about a conventional points type setup where you'd move the points baclplate in the opposite direction to the cam rotation to advance it.

I found a pdf manual online which suggests that the advance is electronic. It's about 30MB - downloaded from here: if it's useful.

https://www.motorcyclemanuals.info/motocycles-atvs/moto-morini/
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500

themoudie

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2022, 09:42:11 PM »
Thank you John and Ian,

Yes, it is a CDI ignition and thank you for posting the link Ian, but I already have a copy of the "Blue book", as it is known in Morini circles.

I too have a sluggish brain syndrome, all the time, when in comes to electronics and other objects that you can't see working!  ::)

On page 23 (33 in pdf) of the manual in para 2, it says that "Slightly move the stator plate. Bear in mind that turning it (the stator) clockwise the timing is retarded." That in my mind is crucial to my understanding of what I need to do, as when the the piston is at TDC, as indicated by the 'PMS' mark, the 'ANT' mark is to the right (page 22, Fig.22/A) and my logic would suggest that to "advance the ignition" I need to see the 'ANT' mark move to the left (anti-clockwise), so that the spark occurs before the piston reaches TDC, not to the right (clockwise) that further retards the spark after the piston has passed TDC.

Unlike all other Moto Morini models, the 125H relies on the trigger coil mounted on the stator and triggered by a trigger shape inside the flywheel rotor passing over it, rather than separate trigger coils mounted adjacent to the end of the camshaft on the left-hand side of the engine. Vespa and Lambretta use similar stator/flywheel combinations, as did Ducati on the singles, all made by Ducati Electronica.

At present, with the engine idling at 1,300 to 1,400rpm the 'PMS' mark aligns with the centre of the camshaft and the 'ANT' mark appears approximately 36° to the right of the camshaft centre when I strobe the flywheel. As the revs are increased, the 'ANT' mark moves to the right (clockwise) and then the engine dies? I think due to the ignition being retarded, but I am not sure?  :-\

I have been recommended to try and speak with a gentleman named Alan Osborn, as he is a practical electronics engineer dealing with Nortons/Moto Guzzis since 1976. Ian you will have seen his articles in the NOC magazine "Roadholder".  ;)

Good health, Bill
« Last Edit: July 23, 2022, 09:50:05 PM by themoudie »

iansoady

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2022, 09:19:48 AM »
Yes, but as I understand what you've said (possibly incorrectly) it's the mark on the rotor that is moving clockwise - the instructions talk about moving the stator clockwise to retard. So I still think it's advancing....

Al Osborne is a fount of knowledge on all things electrical to do with Nortons in particular (not to mention elderly valve amplifiers) but can be a bit prickly. His website (you probably already know this) is http://www.aoservices.co.uk/.
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500

Steve H

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2022, 09:58:17 AM »
Is anybody any good with CDI ignition diagnosis, PLEASE?  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(  This is a Ducati Electronica system that has the battery charging coils and the ignition power and trigger coils mounted on a common stator plate, with the timing of the ignition spark controlled by a trigger inside the keyed flywheel and an electronic advance circuit within the combined transducer/ coil unit. Similar to equipment fitted to Vespa and Lambretta scooters. BeadSpeed have supplied replacement parts that I have fitted and the engine now idles, but appears to retard the ignition rather than advance it as the revs rise! ::)


Bill. not sure if this helps but the majority of Lambretta and Vespa ignitions are static, whilst its possible to buy a system which does advance these are not the norm. Might be worth double checking what you have fitrted and how the advance is supposed to work on the Morini

iansoady

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2022, 10:22:01 AM »
Two strokes (at least older ones) do have static ignition settings ie don't advance with engine speed. But in Bill's case the advance seems to be handled by the CDI box.

TBH I'd be looking at carburation - blocked jet would be my first port of call especially with the hot exhaust.
Ian.
1952 Norton ES2
1986 Honda XBR500

themoudie

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2022, 11:17:07 AM »
Good morning Ian and SteveH,

Thank you for the "prickly" warning Ian and your point about the direction of rotation of the rotor and the movment of the stator plate to retard.

Your comment
Quote
But in Bill's case the advance seems to be handled by the CDI box.


Correct, the advance of the ignition being controlled by a circuit that is contained within the "transducer", along with the ignition coil for the production of the spark. The advance curve is an interaction between the waveform from the pickup and the trigger voltage of the ignition box (transducer). Hence, I am clueless!  :-\

Using both the original transducer and a new replacement as used successfully by the German Morini Owners Club members and described on the Dutch Morini Owners website, I am getting the same result. There is a difference in the amount of ignition advance obtained from the two circuits, but I should at least get an ignition advance!

I have been through the carburettor, with carb cleaner, a single strand of copper wire and compressed air, whilst using a watch makers loupe to see if there are any blockages and can find none. I rebuilt the carb, with parts from Eurocarb, before this escapade and whilst the top end power wasn't great, the wee beastie at least ran. The only thing that I have yet to replace/repair in the ignition circuit, is to have the flywheel re-magnetised; but, the charging circuit appears to be fine.

I have found that others have had similar problems, with the 500 v-twin. But, annoyingly, as is often the case the diagnosis/rectification of the problem is not posted!  :( So, I am left wondering!

Time for another trawl through the search engines and a bit of trial and error in the workshop. I hope that it doesn't end in a "Piff! Paff! POOF!" moment.  ;)

Good health, Bill

Steve H

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Re: Morini the Minx 125H electrics?
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2022, 11:50:30 AM »
Bill,

I suppose my point was make sure you have been sold the correct thing. Did you mean BeedSpeed, if so they have a pretty poor reputation amongst the Lambretta crowd.

Am I right in thinking its starts ok, but its runs poorly and the exhaust goes cherry red ?