Weekend Topic - Bikes, museums and rebuilds

[SteveC#222]

The other thread on Museums and auctions gave me an idea but I thought I'd start a new topic as I didn't want to hijack the Museums thread.

OK....

You often read in the motorcycle mags of some museum or other or even an individual who's acquired the remains of an extremely rare motorcycle, only 4 ever made, lost relic etc etc... you know the sort of thing. Or you get something like 'Slippery Sam' which was reduced to large pools of molten metal after the fire at the National Motorcycle Museum which is then rebuilt to it's former glory.

So when you only have a bent rusty frame, 2 wheel hubs and half an engine from the original bike ( or a pool of molten aluminium) at what point does the rebuilt machine stop being and extremely rare such & such or treasured icon and become a lovingly recreated replica?     If you've remade the frame, rebuilt the wheels, had most of the engine parts remade or recast is it still the original bike?  How much of the original machine do you need to have to claim authenticity?

Discuss....

[timbo]

My thoughts exactly. I've referred to it a little bit on the other thread concerning the Bodmin hoard of eight Broughs, well their remnants   

[Andy M]

Don't the DVLA define it? More than 50% of the major bits (frame, forks, swing arm, engine etc.) and whatever you have in terms of the rest. If its a new bike with a single whitworth bolt holding the makers plate on it gets a Q plate.

Aircraft people seem far more chilled about it. They are happy to see a vintage engine used in a replica air frame (wood and linen rots) with a GPS and radio hidden out of sight so something the right shape with the right handling can go up.

I have to say the NMM struck me as a bit of a brit bike specific graveyard. Keeping one Norton in good nick as a master is a good idea, but why have them wall to wall? The tank museum runs some of its vehicles, the Shuttleworth collection flies some. If they have two of something they swap one for something they don't have with a collection abroad.

Andy

[SteveC#222]

It would be nice to see some of the NMM bikes taken out and run up from time to time, but I agree it is a bit of overkill when you have a line of Broughs , a line of Gold stars etc.

I have no problem with folks rebuilding old bikes with new parts or even making an new replica, as long as they are honest about the amount of original bike is there.  with some it's a case of 'Triggers Broom -" I've had the same broom for the last 15 years - it's had 10 new heads and 3 new handles but it's the same broom I had when I started....."

I think with the DVLA you get 'points' for different original bits, - so many for the engine, so many for the frame etc and you have to have above a certain amount of points in total to retain the original reg.

The Brough hoard was enough to make you cry! how could you let bikes like that get into that state!

[timbo]

In the last few years, the NMM have consistently prepped and run bikes from their collection. My own experience is at the Manx/Classis TT, where they always bring bikes which they run on parade laps, and at Jurby. But my understanding is that they run bikes at many different events, plus they have open days at the museum, where bikes are brought out and used 

[Andy M]

Thats good to know 

Andy

[johnr]

as has been said, the NMM do try and run a lot of their bikes. certainly the race bikes are being used fr parades and at classic track events, but we have to remember that this is essentially a private collection and the rebuilds and restorations of the bikes are funded by the owner from the income of the museum and his own pocket. i think that since the fire, its been a bit more important for them to not just have static displays, but they have a lot of bikes there and once you have rebiuilt something to keep it running, the work doesnt stop, you have to keep on top of it and keep it maintained, so every newly built bike that they fire up is another plate spinning on a stick, whenever you get one up and spinning, you have to go back and re spin the others a bit more. at what stage do you run out of the funds to keep rebuilding refurbishing and restoring an ever increasing pool of bikes. but any museum is going to be a bit of a morgue, for those who remember these bikes in their day, well, you might want to see them running round, but for folks like me born into the era of japanese bikes, its nice to just see them actually in the flesh, if they run, then thats a bonus. of course, folks who want to see more of them running and being ridden can always dip their hands into their pockets and chuck a few quid towards it, but complaining that the countrys biggest bike collection doesnt have enough bikes running is a bit daft, i struggle to keep more than a handful of bikes running at the same time.
as for the originality of the molten metal pool bikes, well they arent kidding anyone. its not like they say that the bikes are original, and we all know about the fire and its destruction, if they can rebuild a bike thats been severely damaged by fire like many of their bikes were, then i think its to be celebrated that they can get them into any sort of running order. ok, it might not be the original crankcases or replica bodywork, but tbh thats not a problem to me, there are very few bikes, particularly race bikes that are still original anyway.  i still want to see these bikes cos they are as close as we can get to the real thing if the real thing has literally gone up in smoke.

[timbo]

Thanks John. You've just put into words what was in my head, but not being expressed very well

[iansoady]

It would be nice to see some of the NMM bikes taken out and run up from time to time, but I agree it is a bit of overkill when you have a line of Broughs , a line of Gold stars etc.

They do.

If you become a supporter for £25 a year you get 2 opportunities to actually ride some of their superb stuff for an extra £10 or so. I did this last year and to my shock was allowed out on a Brough Superior, Vincent Black Shadow, JPS Norton not to mention lots of others.

Admittedly only a very short course round the car park but a superb experience that will stay with me for a long time.

They do longer road rides but the prices are too high for me.

And yesterday there was a free (to supporters) day with Rick Parkington from Classic Bike mag and Ken Sprayson the frame building legend who was still very sharp at the age of 90 although a little hard of hearing......

[mthee]

If you become a supporter for £25 a year you get 2 opportunities to actually ride some of their superb stuff for an extra £10 or so. I did this last year and to my shock was allowed out on a Brough Superior, Vincent Black Shadow, JPS Norton not to mention lots of others.

Ah ha! Having seen your pic of you on the Brough in that thread on lids, here was me thinking,  "Flipping 'eck, that Ian only has a Brough Superior!"

What an amazing scheme and experience! All for only £35 ? Surely they can't just let anyone on them? Did you get grilled beforehand?

[johnr]

Thanks John. You've just put into words what was in my head, but not being expressed very well

thank you, my mindreading skills are available for parties and barmitzvahs..............

[iansoady]

Ah ha! Having seen your pic of you on the Brough in that thread on lids, here was me thinking,  "Flipping 'eck, that Ian only has a Brough Superior!"

What an amazing scheme and experience! All for only £35 ? Surely they can't just let anyone on them? Did you get grilled beforehand?

Amazingly, no - just had show a current licence.

Most people were very sensible but there was one (isn't there always) who had to show off by scraping the silencers on a GP Triumph.