Sunday discussion - Would you go electric?

[timbo]

A few years ago I had to give a presentation on wind energy. Researching the topic was fascinating. The UK is perfectly suited to wind power, but the way forward is large offshore farms, due to economies of scale, clean wind. Individual micro generation is more of a gimmick in my view, though it can help promote wind power. Modern huge turbines are now so much more efficient.
The sad thing is, that as successive governments have dithered on the subject, countries like Denmark and Germany have raced ahead. Manufacturing wind turbines could have saved thousands of engineering jobs in the ship building industry on the Clyde and in Belfast, as the manufacturing skills required are easily transferrable 

[Moto63]

GOVERNMENTS....dithered.  Yip, sounds about right.

[Oldtimer]

Thanks for the reply, that's useful information.

With the maximum number of battery recycled that could give me around 237,000 miles. Presumably the range would drop off towards the maximum number.

A couple of things to consider as well. The Leaf has an air cooled lump for a battery pack but others have a liquid cooled unit. On my longer trips the battery temperature had hit a maximum of 10 bars (out of 12). The last battery report from Nissan still looked great though. Storage of the car has been suggested as a potential problem area, so I don't leave it fully charged while away on holiday. Leaving the charger attached for long period also seems to discharge the 12v battery. The 12v needs the car powered and the inverse running to recharge it.

I've just been asked by one of the Nissan dealers to take the latest 30kWh Leaf for a 24 test drive. With 27kWh capacity (do I believe) that suit most of my journeys. Before I hand my own car back I have a major outlay where the windscreen wipers need to be replaced

Apparently if you actually paid for the car outright you do not own the batteries, you lease them !!!

[Andy M]

Apparently if you actually paid for the car outright you do not own the batteries, you lease them !!!

This is the crux of it for me. The car does 14 miles a day, mostly on urban dual carriageway. It does a monthly 120 miler and has done a single 500 mile holiday. Electric should work.

The Micra sized car that won't take two dogs to the beach though costs more to buy than a 1.2 Dacia and then has an £80 per month rental on the batteries. I bet the depreciation is similar as while a Romanian Renault is hardly boy racer material, who is going to want a 5 year old car with a rental charge bigger than its value.

It's a really narrow band of advantage. You need to be doing lots of city miles.

The environmental stuff is mostly marketing. Scrapping a working MZ whose production already polluted the world to make wind turbines and heavy metal batteries doesn't add up. When the MZ is worn out, sure, don't make another, but why jump the gun?

Now the new London Taxi that will do lots of city miles and will be replacing worn out vehicles, that makes sense. Milk floats did too.

Andy

[iansoady]

Manufacturing wind turbines could have saved thousands of engineering jobs in the ship building industry on the Clyde and in Belfast, as the manufacturing skills required are easily transferrable 

Absolutely. But of course as the market rules everything it won't happen.

Anybody else remember the Lucas Shop Stewards' plan which was drawn up in the 80s when Lucas Aerospace was being closed down? There was a lot in there about using all those great skills for alternative energy amongst other things. Instead, all those super craftspeople ended up flogging double glazing and the like.

[Smithy]

I know this might be a little bit left field but I was glad to see the winner of the Apprentice was a plumber who has actual skills which can be used to do actual jobs like fix things with his hands. He was also interested in renewable energy. The best part, he is only 25 thus proving that the younger generation is not all made up of celebrity obsessed screen jockeys.

[xbr500f]

According to the documentation the batteries are with the car and are not leased, do there are no extra costs. I will check that to make sure I have my facts straight.

The Leaf is about the same size as an Astra / Focus and can easily carry 5 adults and all their luggage.

Environmental issues. Like it or not petrol and diesel powered vehicles will be banned from towns and cities in my lifetime. I expect there will be exceptions to this, like emergency vehicles and maybe classic car rallies.

Electric cars only for the city! I have seen a few Dutch Leafs, fully laden on summer holidays to the UK. I also know someone who takes an annual trip from Nice to West Lothian.

I agree that depreciation is a killer on these cars and that is why I lease mine. I would seriously consider buying it at auction after it is handed back.

[SteveC#222]

I agree that depreciation is a killer on these cars and that is why I lease mine. I would seriously consider buying it at auction after it is handed back.

Interesting article on MSN the other day ( Ok I know not exactly the oracle) about the fastest depreciating cars over the last 3 years. Top (bottom?) of the list were 2 electric cars - the Peugeot Ion and the Citroen C-Zero _ which are supposedly only now worth 18.7% of their original purchase price 3 years ago ( though admittedly a large chunk of this was because the purchase price of the new example has dropped by approx 50%).

Not scientific, but certainly something to bear in mind.

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/ownership/the-top-25-fastest-depreciating-cars-of-2015/ss-BBnxLAf#image=26

[guest564]

A couple of things to consider as well. The Leaf has an air cooled lump for a battery pack but others have a liquid cooled unit. On my longer trips the battery temperature had hit a maximum of 10 bars (out of 12). The last battery report from Nissan still looked great though. Storage of the car has been suggested as a potential problem area, so I don't leave it fully charged while away on holiday. Leaving the charger attached for long period also seems to discharge the 12v battery. The 12v needs the car powered and the inverse running to recharge it.

I wonder what 10bars is in real numbers, generally anything over 40C is bad for battery life. The traction battery should be OK during storage, Lithium batteries have a very low self-discharge rate so as long as they aren't powering anything it should be good for a long time. Is the 12V battery lead-acid?

[guest564]

Apparently if you actually paid for the car outright you do not own the batteries, you lease them !!!

I don't think that is the case with Nissan which is why they have fixed the cost of a replacement at 5000 Euros, it helps people budget for it when it comes and helps resale values.

[xbr500f]

The 12 volt battery is a standard lead acid one. I should imagine that a gel battery could be used as there isn't the same kind of strain that an ICE would take when cranking a cold engine.

Back to the depreciation. My car had s price of around £18k after the subsidy was taken into account. A 3 year old Leaf with 45,000 miles went for about £8.5k at auction. Mine is less than 2 years old with 24,000 miles. If the market is good it might get somewhere between £10 - £11k. To be honest I prefer to look at the total cost of ownership,taking fuel and servicing into consideration.

I hope you all gave a great Christmas and have a relaxing time with your families. Those of us who are working or on call (me), hopefully you will make time for some R&R later.

[Andy M]

http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20151231-electric-power-for-an-icon-of-the-atomic-age

This I like, except for the price tag.

Andy