Mid week Topic: Road position

[guest1155]

interesting topic this one. Aside from the nc30 i've just got rid of and and 85 gpz6 fighter i built about 10 years ago i've only ever had road bikes, and most of them have been singles or twins of the old variety. now i don't know about any of you lot, but in my experience older road style bike crash a lot better than racer type ones, be that because of the speeds travelled or the construction of the machine in question. This i have found very useful, as in the last 18 years of riding i have come off a lot and like sqirrelciv says, was a complete ar5e when i first started riding. admitedly most of my offs were slow speed and pretty harmless, ie the odd bruise and bent lever but these are what teaches you, the rider, respect for the road, your machine, and other road users. modern riders dont seem to get that as they buy very expensive new machines as opposed to how i started off (and i'm sure i'm not the only one here) on old sheds that was all i could afford. I had to keep it on the road as i couldnt afford to have someone else work on it, and therefore had to find the best way round a corner else it would fall over and crash. it is,however much easier to find the limit on a gs250t than it is on a cbr900rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. When i found the limit i could back off, when matey on his cbr900rrrrrrrrrrrrrr finds the limit he's lucky if he escapes a trip to hospital. i think a lot of rider skill is missing these days but i also think its down tho the culture that surrounds newer biker types, that being they dont go through the kak bike and crashing phase, they just get a million horsepower space ship. however,it is bloody good fun passing people who are on the latest and greatest, on an old srx on the brakes with the back wheel skipping off the deck 

[OZ]

I train people to ride bikes for a living. Or to be specific I train them to pass their bike tests. To pass a DSA test on the road you need to take a central position within the lane. The reasoning is that safety for novice riders is more important than road position. Their logic is that if you can't see far enough around a corner then go slower.
This works well enough in a training/test scenario but doesn't prepare for real life riding when most riders wish to "make progress"
I stress to all my successful candidates that they should undertake some kind of further training either with qualified DSA instructors like myself or others to understand how to ride more safely in the real world.
A couple of you mentioned Bikesafe. This is absolutely brilliant value for money and I guarantee that whether you're a novice or an cynical "done it all" type you will benefit from the day(s) if you can approach with an open mind.
With regard to riding back from the Dragon. For the first 30 miles I was riding like a twat, I just couldn't get into any kind of groove,my lines were aw full, I was slow and frankly a bit of a danger to the North Wales wildlife.

OZ

[Furry John]

With regard to riding back from the Dragon. For the first 30 miles I was riding like a *******, I just couldn't get into any kind of groove,my lines were aw full, I was slow and frankly a bit of a danger to the North Wales wildlife.

No Change there then OZ, you were lucky, most had a hangover!!

Furry

[beeman]

Interesting thread. I had a good trip back across north wales from the dragon trying to find as many castles as I could. Making progress as they say. Passed a lot of bikes in the rain but none passed me. I ride to work most days in the rain so am used to it. If you are a fair weather biker then it can seem a bit frightening not having the same grip with cold wet tyres.
All my driver/ bike training is based observations, interpreting them and then acting upon them, road positioning is just an aid to increasing the distance that you can see not an aim in itself. One of my instructors wanted to even know what was on the horizon 15 miles away, I think he was a bit anal. What I mean to say as Richard pointed out, is that it is what you do with this information which is important not the information itself.

Mud on the road means it is slippery also what left it there, slowing down and altering our lean angle should come as a natural reaction. Is it natural though? I have been on the roads since 1976 and like most of the club members have also learnt in the school of hard knocks. Falling off hurts and is expensive. Remember common sense is not always common.
IAM training and bike safe days are a great way to improve our riding none of us are perfect and we all slip into bad habits.

I too am not a great lover of riding in groups either they are too slow or too fast. I do however like riding with the odd motorcyclist especially if they are good as I try to learn off them or brush up on my own riding. Following a rider who correctly lines up a series of bends and overtakes in a safe manner making good progress is a pleasure to watch.

time for bed said zebideeeeeeeee
beeman

[el vencejo]

As Beeman, I've been riding (and falling off) for lots of years. In the old days.. (time for a monty Python interlude... you were lucky!!!) learning on old Brit bikes with cr*p brakes you either learned lines and maintained cornering speed, rode very slowly or crashed a lot
I have picked up lots of bad habits, but 2 principles apply for me:
1. Assume all other road users either can't see you or want to kill you.
2. If the road is empty, its all yours to pick the best line.... and the best line usually gives the best view through the bend.
Really, "the line" is just logic... move over to where you can best see the way though a bend, and wind on the throttle as soon as you can see the exit... then hope that there isn't a diesel spill, wet leaves, black ice........
I'm still alive and having fast fun 41 years after my first bike  

Pure luck, nowt else!

[guest7]

Excellent thread and there's not much I can add to the debate other than to say that imho an IAM course is a fantastic investment for any rider, be they a relative novice or a grizzled old-timer. What I learned on my IAM course isn't always put into practice, but I know that it has saved my bacon on many occasions.

My brother made a good point a few years ago. He said that a lot of born-agains ride like they are driving a car, especially when it comes to overtaking. That's because all they have done for years is drive a car. Watch some born-agains this summer and you will see that he is right, a biker overtakes in a very sinuous, fluid manner, a BA will pull right out, maintain a rigid wide line past the overtaken vehicle and then do a sharp return to their lane.

All this talk of tractors reminds me of the Ixion biking forum term "fridge theory" meaning that you should ride as if a fridge has fallen off the back of a lorry around every blind corner  

As for squids... they are idiots. (edited to remove offensive remarks 27/02/11))

GC

[el vencejo]

As for squids... they are scum. Any ******* on a bike in t-shirt and shorts gets what they deserve.

GC

Sorry you think that way.
Do you applaud all the "safety" legislation all us suckers have to comply with?
Ready to wear your compulsory airbag suit that could be on its way?
T-shirt, shorts, no helmet; most of the guys where I live ride that way in high summer. Are they scum?
When the temp is warm I ride fast wearing cargo pants, t-shirt, gloves, minimal scooter helmet.... I don't hope for the worst for those who sweat and look miserable in their full body armour, I just think "hey... where's the fun in that?"
I prefer not to be called scum because I like to have fun riding comfortably dressed. (just like sex without a condom is soooo much better)

(think it's time I left this site   )

As a vegetarian, I think that anyone who eats the flesh of or wears the skin of a dead animal is...    Wrong, misguided, but not scum!

[SteveC#222]

When I was 16 with my first moped (Puch Maxi), one of the lads in the village had a Malaguti Olympic sports moped ( remember them) and was the envy of all us 16 year olds. He thought he was really the kiddy, and during the summer evenings would thrash around the village in shorts and sandals being Mr cool. Unfortuantely one day he was trashing round the village when he found out the hard way that bikes and newly graveled roads don't mix...fell off at 40ish straight up the road on his back ...no t shirt.. he literally skinned his back, looked like he'd been attacked with a giant cheese grater and spent the rest of the summer laying on his stomach while his back healed.

Since then I've always made at least a token effort to cover up even in the hottest summers, not always full safety gear, but at least some sort of jacket over the t shirt, jeans and gloves.

[squirrelciv]

"Scum" might be a bit harsh, but those who choose not to wear protective clothing do deserve what they get (and I'm including myself here as I don't aways wear full protective clothing). As I see it, you know the risks, you make your choice. However, it has to be said if enough go without and get injured as a result, then governments will impose it on us and we will be wearing air bags and shin guards.

[Andy M]

+1 Pat. I think I'd have used the word idiot (or misinformed depending how much I'd had to drink).

If this weather keeps up, we'll have the summer roadkill season on us early. There seems to be a lack of joined up thinking. We have riders on machinery with a better power to weight ratio than early fighter aircraft, with "20-minuter" training and faith that leathers like Valentino Rossis and a £500 lump of polystyrene makes them bullet proof. We have guys who think that something with bad brakes and bad handling should be ridden at 40 mph, three inches in  front of a hacked off lorry driver while wearing a fashion jacket and fake plastic bosch helmet. We then have a huge fight over the shop-to-be-safe versus slow-to-be-safe ideas, the think-to-be-safe minority being ignored as not macho enough/too much like hard work.

Like it or not we operate a layered defence. The decision to ride or not that day depending on conditions, our own physical state, the state of the bike. The way we ride and how much training we've had and can put into practice. The level of comfort and how much of a reduction on our ability to detect threats our riding gear puts on us, with finally the level of collision protection it provides. To ignore training and ability and totally rely on racetrack crash protection (The race track is a different enviroment unless they've started chucking cow **** on the chicanes and using ****ed up tractor drivers to add a bit of variantion) is to me just a mad as a total reliance on your skill not to crash. The balance is different for each trip and the hideous yank ATGATT matra is over simplistic.

If we don't control the extremeists ourselves, our nanny state will do something pointless and impractical. It seems to be hearts and minds though, convincing riders that if they could ride like Valentino they'd be on the track, not at a cafe ten miles from home watching the ambulances roll by.

Andy

[guest7]

(think it's time I left this site   )

I think this is one of those classic forum moments when I forgot that perhaps only I knew what was in my mind when I typed  

Sorry if my post came across as bombastic and offensive. I think I should have qualified the statement. When I said Squid I was thinking of the riders who (in the Brief British summer) ride very high powered sportsbikes at high speed dressed completely inappropriately. I'm not a safety nut, but I think part of having some sort of civic conscience (let alone any love for your family) is in not engaging in very dangerous activity without taking reasonable precautions. I'm sure others here have seen the consequences of bare skin hitting tarmac at speed and the cost, emotional and financial, is massive.

Every time one of these cheerfully optimistic speed merchants hits the deck it bumps up our accident statistics a treat. What would have been a slide, roll and embarrassed walk back to a lightly damaged bike becomes an ambulance ride and (god forbid) possible fatality.

Of course each and every one of us is free to make their own decision about what to wear when riding a bike, but is it unreasonable to suggest that if you intend scratching the B roads of Britain then perhaps bare legs and arms are not ideal?

So, to summarise my rambling apology, when I said Squids are scum I had a very specific rider group in mind and would never imply that all riders are scum because they choose to wear light clothing when they ride. I apologise if I offended any of the good souls on this site.

GC

[guest7]

AND...

(think it's time I left this site   )

DON"T GO!



GC 

[guest1188]

I've just been checking out the issue of 'undertaking', which I've never been sure about. Wikipedia says this:

Highway Code rule 268 advises against undertaking on a motorway: "Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake"[4]. On other roads you can "only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right" (rule 163). On all roads, undertaking is permitted if the vehicles in the lane to the right are queueing and slow moving.[5] Undertaking in an aggressive or reckless manner could be considered Careless Driving or more seriously Dangerous Driving, both of which are legally enforceable offences.

Elsewhere on the net I found a case where a motorcyclist had been charged with dangerous driving for undertaking a solitary car on a motorway. In court the charge was reduced to the (less serious) charge of careless driving, and he was advised by his brief to plead guilty, which he did.

It seems that we probably shouldn't undertake those solitary dozy drivers. Unless we're quite sure there are no coppers about, anyway....

Martin

[pigafetta]

Well that's as clear as mud.

So, at the risk of displaying my ignorance toward the whole biker lingo thing, what the hell is an ATTGATT and what have you fellas got against cephalopods?

[SteveC#222]

" All The Gear All The Time"