Old classics, modern classics

[guest7]

When I was a young motorcyclist I used to often see Classic british motorcycles still being ridden regularly, but everyone was aware of their age and the fact that they wouldn't be as reliable as they were when new.

Now, due to the quirks of aging, I find myself with some 25 year old 'modern classics' in the garage and it occurred to me that I ride them in exactly the same way that I rode them when new. In fact I would be as disgusted now if a major component failed as when i first bought them.

I'm guessing this is all down to metallurgy and initial build quality. Obviously some jap bike components are bloody awful (wiring on Hondas doesn't seem to last more than 20 years without problems), but the motors are bloody marvellous, imho.

Perhaps I'm just wearing blinkers (Miss Whiplash likes them you see), but how often now do you see a worn out jap bike engine or more to the point when did you last hear anyone say "I have to take it easy, this Fireblade's crank is 20 years old"?

GC

[bobby554]

Hello Onepot

 I am coming up to my 60th birthday with 50 yrs on bikes starting with a BSA M21 in 1959 when I was 9(off road). I own some british classics and others, My Norton has never let me down in 12 years and does not leak oil. My shed is carpeted for warmth and whilst you wouldn't want to eat your dinner off the floor is not oil sodden. Having owned a BMW for 14 yrs I found it very reliable except for minor electrics. The Honda Blackbird I have just sold was the most unreliable with regulator,cam chain,brake and starting problems. My 33yo Honda tl125 however has been so good that I have had a 150cc conversion for the last 9 years and intend to fit it when I need to do some other work on it. I would like to point out that motorcycles are my primery transport and all get ridden often. the best way to keep a bike "young" is to use it.
Regards Bob.

[blew]

I am not far behind Bobby in age,and I also started on British machinery - a Panther with a Villiers 2T engine.The "standard" British bikes of the past were reasonably reliable;the rot started when British firms began tuning their bikes in an effort to compete with the Japanese.I owned a BSA B40 (350 single,for those too young to remember!!) for years -it was reliable,and carried me everywhere I wanted to go,including the IOM.I then bought a BSA Starfire -a highly tuned 250 single.It was quicker than the old 350,and could out-accelerate a friend's CB 250.I promptly thrashed it,and it fell apart.I later owned a BSA Spitfire (now worth a fortune,as long as you don't ride it too far or too fast),and it was fun when it went,but it often didn't go.I sold it when its third new crankshaft expired,putting a rod through the cases.When I eventually bought a Jap bike -a CB 350 twin,it took me ages to get used to the revs.Cruise at 7000 rpm???Thrash it to 9200 in the lower gears???It'll never last!!I would say that if you have a Brit bike in standard tune,it should be fine.But beware of the later highly-tuned models.I once read a very apt summary of the BSA Starfire - " a hand grenade waiting to explode"

[guest7]

Yep, I had a Starfire for a while too... I was always going to get a Fleetstar (lower compression) piston for it, but it never really ran long enough to make it worthwhile.

I once fixed that bike with some wire pulled from an old (illuminated) advertising sign on a disused petrol station forecourt 

Unlike the Starfire I've never returned from a ride on my modern singles and found things like rocker inspection caps missing...

GC

[bobby554]

Spot on Blew

I used to "enduro" a BSA B33 (500cc single) sidecar outfit in in standard tune exept for a mk1 amal carb. never let me down and always finished.
Later I solo enduroed a BSA B50MX and it was a total dog but I did love it, at the same time I trialled a CCM 350T (B40 engine,see gallery photos) and this was in a very mild state of tune. again ultra reliable.
We now benefit from better oils and higher quality bearings and most of us have retro fitted full flow filters in the oil lines.
Nor is it logical to compare a 50 year old bike with a 20 year old one.
My BMW K100 RS had 140,000 miles on the clock when it went and had never had the engine apart. My ZXR1100 was worn out at 60,000.
regards Bob

[guest7]

All good points.

When I owned my Starfire it was 23 years old, but it was a world away from the (then) modern kit. It looked like an antique. It's interesting to note that a 25 year old XBR500 isn't fundamentally different to the much newer CB500 that I also own. Of course I'm not talking about sportsbike tech here 

If we stick to talking about lower priced motorcycles (middleweight commuters, etc.) perhaps what I'm saying is that by the mid 80s the standard of bikes was much improved and bikes from that era are very similar to what you can buy today. The brakes, electrics and suspension are good and the engines tend not to have any weaknesses (the BMW K100 RS was first introduced in that era too). Of course British classics can be retrofitted with Lockheed callipers and tricky disks (and the suchlike), but my thoughts were mainly concerned with standard models as they were built 'in the day'.

Don't get me wrong, this isn't a dig at Brit bikes, far from it.

GC

[squirrelciv]

From what I've read, post war British industry [and that includes the motorcycle industry] was broke and abandonded by the Government. Directors wanting profits quick, failed to invest in upgrading plant and tried instead to churn out [basically]tarted up versions of pre war machines. Japan however, concentrated on quality and constantly sought out improvements in performance of both components and construction methods. Chasing it's tail, British industry tried to follow, but the rot was in. I know BSA invested in a stock control system only to end up re-ordering poor quality stock automatically that then [for economic reasons] had to be designed into new models. Gold stars were as good as they were because an elite team hand built them from selected components they finished themselves.

Basically, I think your run-of-the-mill 80's Jap bike engine is probably over engineered to exceptionally tight tolerences. And all of them will be consistant, with any failings being identified and sorted out early on.

[guest40]

Bark in good old days laddie, we (Japanese motorrbike owners) would have great sympathy to our pom... err English bike rider mates by offerring them a new and indespensible accessory, An electro magnet that was housed on the back mudguard just under the number plate to catch sundry nuts and bolts etc. We would also assist them in fchecking the petrol and filling the oil at the servo's as well , and I distinctly remember offering to pick up some alloy fragments that littered the highway near Dubbo NSW after a Squaffa dropped a rod thru the crankcase. There was about 100 yards of alloy and oil left behind to mark the passing of a great machine. Steve had to return some fencing wire on his trip back to Melbourne that  he had borrowed from a farmers fence on the way up there. At least he got half way on it.
Ahh the good old Classics, good to admire and LOOK at.

[bobby554]

As you say the "problem" is not the bikes but the manner of manufacture.
Norton moved to Andover and could not get a boring operation right until a man came down from the old factory with the piece of WOOD that had to be wedged behind the boreing head to hold it steady because the machine was so old.
Gold Stars were good for the reasons you state I have a DBD34 in a Featherbed frame but they were produced for too long, by the early 60s we should have been making an overhead cam version. The Norton Manx held off the might of the Italian multi's and others with an engine first raced in the 30s. Nortons last prototype single was a BSA B50 engine in a isolastic type frame, Still pushrod and no electric start!
Truimph has shown what can be done with proper investment and desighn. True they have made a few mistakes but are getting there with conventional but solid products.
 

[guest7]

Goldie in a Featherbed.... drooooool 

GC

[guest27]

I guess we are looking at different things.  The cooking Brits go on and on as they are so understressed, but a cooking Jap makes more bhp per litre and goes on just as long.  Jap sports bikes do wear out, spinning a shaved to a mm of its life to 15,000 rpm is going to have an impact, but even so you are not looking at rebuilding a Fireplace at 20,000 miles.  Brit bikes like the later Bonnies, Starfires etc were just overstressed for the design.

As to the manufacturing, I think the different thinking tells a lot, Brits were built to Go-NoGo gauges as this was seen as the cheapest way to manufacture.  The Japs were more inclined to look to minimum variation from the perfect size as a means of making manufacture as low cost and product as reproducibly reliable as possible.  The two different ways of thinking are, by and large, in place today still.

R

[Steffan]

Seven fifty four

enough said

all there is to say really

Steff

[002]

Seven fifty four

enough said

all there is to say really

Steff

Yeah !  Bloody Horrible Things ! And the 400-4 .....Rancid !!!!

Jethro

[guest7]

So if we take that point on board we can say that most bikes made before (say) 1980 were a bit ropey in terms of metallurgy and build quality.

I'm not so sure I'd agree with the 400/4 as an example though, having owned three (or four), worked on them and thrashed them. If I had one today I would still be able to redline it and ride it as fast as I could. Which sort of brings us back to my original point.

GC

[Andy M]

So if we take that point on board we can say that most bikes made before (say) 1980 were a bit ropey in terms of metallurgy and build quality.

In a car I'd agree, there is a definate progression from cast iron lumps you'd find in Morris Minors, via **** like Vauxhall Viva's to things like 80's VW's and Toyotas where they started to employ modern materials and the production ideas as Rog described. Karens six year old Micra is like new.

Bikes have more going on. In terms of what they could make you get peaks like the BMW K's where they took true automotive ideas and applied them. Then the fashion idiots get involved and the likes of Triumph want two straight silencers but only have enough margin in the price range they are looking at for one. Add enviromental concerns and we get cheeselike metals, "chrome" that falls off and a value engineered bike that's only good for 10,000 salf free miles over the five years they imagine it'll be fashionable enough to be taken out of the garage. You can't tell me BMW can't make a bike with a waterproof security system, they just don't see the need to.

Andy