Engine Trouble Warning Light flashes - help required!!

[guest24]

Chaps, my "brand new" secondhand MT-03 flashes its engine trouble warning light when you hit the start button. The workshop manual says that means fuel injection problems. The shop (from whence the beast came) says nothing is wrong and its fine that the light flashes as it indicates power is going to the starter. Is it just me, or are they talking a load of tosh?

Physical symptoms are rough running 3-4k when trying to hold a steady throttle like it has a horrendously loose chain. Also, when you crack it away from the lights it feels like it misses and you have hit the rev limiter even though you haven't even reached the red band.

One of their mechanics is taking it home tonight for a longer test ride to see if he can experience said problems. I'm not holding my breath in anticipation...

Anyone any comments on engine trouble warning lights on Yamahas?? 

[Andy M]

I've never worked on a Yamaha, but I was in vehicle electronics for 12 years, so a few thoughts.

1. The dealer should start selling BMW's. "They all do that" is the usual excuse for idiots who havn't a clue. The warning light is on because the Yamaha engineers think whatever is going on is about to lower their customers brand satisfaction by doing something anti social. Is this a Yamaha dealer? If not, I suggest you want to get a proper Yamaha techie to put his box on it. How you fund that from your dealer I guess could be an issue. I'd scream Sale of Goods act and give 'em two choices, money back or fixed.

2. All electronics have a start up sequence and shut down sequence. If anything is wrong they log faults. Lack of voltage is a typical issue and sounds like what you have. Do you:

         Use the kill switch? Don't, use the key to stop it, that tells ECU's to turn off rather than just killing their power supply.

         Hit the button half a second after the key? Turn it on, put your helmet on, then hit the button. This lets all the checks go through with a steady voltage.

         Give it throttle as you press the button? FI doesn't need this, start with one finger and let the ECU decide how much gas it wants. This means zero throttle is idle, so the rest of the rev range makes sense to the ECU.

The idea is to give the electronics time to do everything they need to, in sequence. Check the battery voltage right after doing five starts in a row. If it's under 11 volts that's your problem. (If it's over 15V at anytime, don't ride it, that'll fry expensive bits).

3. The ECU logs faults. If the dealer says there are none there it's because their tech doesn't know how to find them. Some faults do clear, but you can see them if you put the diagnostics kit on while the warning light is on, without cycling the ignition.

4. If they do use the diagnostics, have they thought about mechanical issues? Something like a blocked fuel filter will stop the ECU seeing pressure. The ECU only knows about it's own switch, so in it's logic that's what it blames. There are plenty of techs out there who read "Incorrect switch reading" as "duff switch". When the switch proves to be fine, they don't go to the next stage.

5. Is the missfire a limp home mode? Does the ECU calibrate the throttle at start up? BMW F650's had an interesting trick, they calibrated the throttle at start up. If the rider gave it a handfull as they pressed the button, 1/4 throttle became idle and the closed stop a fault. They could be reset by going zero to full throttle three times with the key on, then key off without pressing the starter.

6. I will buy you a pint if there is anything wrong with the ECU. Electronics don't fail unless idiot actors or their special friends weld without taking them off. Chances are this is an issue with something mechanical like a fuel filter, or basic wiring like a throttle position sensor. If the dealer wants to start swapping ECU's (another bolt hole of the incompetant), make sure you tell him you've no intention of paying for it.

I'd go tell the dealer he's a ****wit and if they all do that you want your money back.

Andy

[Steffan]

I'm impressed!!
Interesting - makes me glad I'm a ludite.

Steffan

[steveD]

I really do think that you are on the wrong forum to get accurate info about this engine. For 1 you will find that when you turn on the ignition the engine the electronics will do a system check which will show as the instrument panel flashing through its lights. You can start the engine at any point but it normally happens so quick that it will be done before you get to hit the start button.
Fuel injection is notoriously lumpy onb single cylinder engions, I'll put good money on that's why this bike has been traded in! You will need to get onto the XT660.com site and explain your symptoms as this really is old news there. The bottom line is that you will need to tune the engine properly which will mean a power commander and possibly air filter modification. The 'X' and 'R' 660 bikes all seem to have these problems, that's why they all sport Power cammanders now!*
Chain tension is also quite important as is the condition of your cush drive rubbers,
But as Andy says take it to an authorised Yamaha dealer for a diagnostic check.


*All of this would be unnecessary if you had got a new Tenere as the air box is huge and the fuel injection is spot on!

[Richard]

Kirk to Scotty

"I want a full diagnostic on the warp engines"

Scotty to Kirk

"But Captain, that'll take three hours, and we dinnae have the time left before we crash into yon Sun"

"Kirk to Scotty

"Thats alright, just take it to the MZ dealer for a service then"

Richard (who stands staggered at his inability to concieve of owning a motorcycle so complex).

[Andy M]

The computer gives a straight answer. It's a heck of a lot easier that finding a blocked carb jet, swollen O-ring or split rubber IF you have the kit.

Andy

[guest24]

Hmm, things move on. Shop says its supposed to do that. Yamaha UK say the same?!? The chap at Yamaha says he tested an XT660 in the car park fleet and it does the same.

Saturday, at the shop, they are going to introduce a fault eg disconnect tilt sensor, and see what happens. The idea is to prove that error codes are being recorded. Currently no codes display and nothing is recorded, ergo, they all say nothing is wrong. Grrrr. Roll on Saturday.

Meanwhile, I have become a two-timing (three timing?) person and joined XT660.com and Yamaha Owners Club and am scouring their forums.

Does anyone reading this have access to an XT660 or the like? Does your engine warning light come on when you hit the starter button? Note that this is after all the pre-flight checks have finished!!

[steveD]

Yeah I've got the XT660Z Tenere and if the orange management light came on on mine I would go to the connector block for the Reg/rectifier. Make sure that all of the terminals are making a good connection. My bike is in for a 12000 mile service at the moment and that particular block is being replaced as the earth pin had not made a good connection, had got hot, gone black and had heated up the surrounding plastic making it go brittle. When the terminal was not making a good connection the orange engine management light came on. Worth a look.
As for the surging, this has been a major problem for single cylinder fuel injected engines as you will see from the XT660.com site. This can easily be sorted with better engine management ie the power commander.
Failing that just get a Z Tenere

[Steffan]

Or an MZ 2T 

[guest24]

Steve, thanks for your comments, it is definately worth an investigation!
Steffan, MZ 2T, hmm, quite liked my fathers 250 Supa 5, and my mate Chris had one with a Micron race pipe (ex LC350 ?) that most certainly improved matters.

Now sat in bed with this laptop and still typing. How sad is that?

[squirrelciv]

This seems to be the problem when technology comes to rescue men from simplicity. Great when it works... A bu99er when it doesn't! Thing is, too few of us understand the principles of what technology does. Who here truely understands (I mean truely!) how a computer chip works?? (Andy don't answer that) We use this stuff daily yet remain nieve.

Before anyone comes along and tells me to rip out my CDI unit and fit points and a manual retard, I know I'm as guilty as the next man.

[guest27]

True, but there again how many of us really understand the inner workings of the human cell?  Let alone the development of cognition etc.  We should not beat ourselves up just beccause we do not have a good understandings of the wonders of the semiconductor.   

R

[Andy M]

....how a computer chip works?? (Andy don't answer that) ....

Sorry Pat, can't help myself  

I'll answer a question with a question: what do you need to know?

Take a carbeurettor. There are various levels of understanding:

1. Not a clue, put petrol in and it goes.
2. Can take out the jets, clean and rebuild. Know how the enricher circuit works.
3. Understand the Stochiometric ratio and how the needle shape, jets and so forth produce the three curves for idle, part throttle, full throttle etc.
4. Understand the actual flows, droplet size and so forth.

Most home mechanics/workshop technician are a 2 or possibly a 3. When you find a jet you can't see daylight through, you don't start to worry about what fuel additives and conditions make a laquer and you don't whip out your lathe and start making a new one, you go buy one. People at level 4 at the engine OEM rarely get it that wrong.

When your PC breaks, I bet no one worries about which chip is the issue, they just find the smallest supplied part to replace.

EFI and other technology just changes what you need to know. It's so simple at the workshop level that anyone who knows carbs WILL think they are being given the kiddies version. The problem is that the switch in technology has left workshop supplies in the dark ages. In 1900 I bet few home mechanics and a lot of workshops lacked vacuum gauges to balance twin carbs which left the dreaded craftsman/guesser to do his worst and there'd be letters to the Times about how anything more complicated than a bean can with a hole in the top was the work of the devil. That's where we are now because the people with the diagnostic kit like charging £50 an hour. You can buy an OBD reader from Argos, so it won't be long before most decent shops will know what they are doing and your home laptop will have some sort of software. You really don't need to know much beyond that the fact that the ECU is a black box full of angry pixies who'll talk to your PC and tell you which bit to look at next. Carbs don't tell you which bit to look at.

I'm really surprised at Yamaha getting the mapping wrong, they certainly wouldn't have supplied a carb with the wrong jetting  . BMW and the Italians I expect to underdevelop their products, but when the new Truimphs came out with a near perfect set up on day 1 and workshops that could do exhaust swaps just as they had with carbs I'd assumed the FI suppliers now knew what they were doing.

Andy

[guest24]

OK, today's update.

I was a shown an FZ6 Fazer and it too illuminates its engine light when the start button is pushed. It would appear that there is a difference between flashing and just illuminating when the button is pushed    The Xt660 at Yamaha UK did the same. Yamahas that are working properly illuminate their light when being started, apparently. Hence no error codes being logged.

MT03s also have a surging problem, just like XT660 as SteveD alluded too, around the 3-4k mark. How crap is that? Can I go buy some carbs for my beast, please? You can ride round the problem, it's just a matter of either rolling on and off the throttle ie no steady throttle, or just use a different rev range.

I tested it on a long road today, running up to the red line in the first 4 gears and then into top. It is as smooth as you can expect from big thumper, so it must be fueling properly when accelerating. Maybe I need to adjust my state of mind to cope with its foibles of 'superb' fuel injection at constant throttle?

Lastly, a power commander at a mere £298 will fix all the fueling problems. Anyone got one, and does it really cure such problems?

[Ian]

I know this posting is a bit late for you but I bought a brand new MT-03 about 3 years ago. I test drove the one in the showroom and loved it...but then again I didnt drive it as I was going to drive my own (Does anyone??).
When I took delivery of mine...I thought it was misfiring..I took it back to said dealer and explained my problem. They looked at my bike sympathetically and then told me "nothing was wrong". I told them Iwasnt happy so they got in touch with Yamaha. I have a lot of time for Yamaha normally..they have helped me a great deal in the past, but when I got a similar reply that they gave you..well..I spit feathers and told them they should have not sold an underdeveloped bike..fell on deaf Yamaha ears Im afraid. I was told by the dealer that fitting a power commander was the only way forward...at my own cost!!! what a load of c**p...as if the flippin bikes dont cost enough....
I fell out with the dealer over this bike..it was the mechanic who got them to see sense and they phoned me up and asked me to come back and discuss the situation. I did just that and bought a Bandit instead..I lost money on the deal but just couldnt get on with fuel injection on a single. Fuel consumption was crap too...less than 40 mpg on a run...and with a small tank...hmm not one of my better choices/decisions in life. I know this will probably not make you feel any better but I just wanted you to know..you arent alone !!!
Regards
Ian