One for Bruce and The Sidecarista...

[guest27]

Ooops - they are all Norton Big 4's with sidecar and auxillary drive to the sidecar wheel for soft ground only - dog clutch and no diff

R

[guest7]

Saw one of those belting across a VERY muddy Dragon rally field once, he obviously had the sidecar wheel drive engaged because he made it look easy. He traversed the field in about 5 seconds, solos were taking up to 5 minutes.

GC

[johnr]

theres one in the foyer of the mational motorcycle museum (nmm) at brum, complete with the vickers machine gun.

[Andy M]

Hmm, something 3x2 with chain drive to copy. Ural bits as far as the limited slip cush drive thingy (replaces the dog clutch), then.....

Guess I'll avoid that one or it'll be getting expensive 



Andy

[johnr]

i didnt think urals had a diff, theyre just direct drive. you can select rear wheel drive or rear wheel and sidecar wheel, but im pretty sure that they dont have a differential drive. otherwise when you disconnected the sidecar drive, the thing would just stand still wouldnt it? besides, a differential driven sidecar wheel would be a nightmare on the mud, unless you had a big heavy sidecar passenger, the sidecar wheel would just spin immediately due to lack of traction.

[guest27]

I have lost the link - but came upon it when looking at the above pic - a whole website dedicated to making 1 WD sidecars 2WD, and even 3WD, without using a Ural cos they have a chair on the wrong side - I think they were mainly Aussies

R

[Andy M]

Urals and Dneprs etc. have had all sorts of variations. They started copying the BMW R75 with a lockable diff, went to a road only basic diff with permanant 3x2 drive (goes straighter on the road), then the current dis-engageable no diff drive. Eco-drive and the other modern versions avoid the lockable diff using a cushdrive and limited slip set up that breaks free once there is sufficient force in the sidecar drive shaft. This avoids snapped driveshafts of the sort Urals and these Nortons suffer when you fly the chair or find sudden grip with the drive engaged.

There are 3x3's with hydraulic drives out there too  

Current wisdom is that a 3x1 with the right tyres and ground clearance will get in and out of 80% of the places a 3x2 will. This sort of backs up what the military found out in the middle war years, the Norton and Harley XA weren't a massive improvement over a BSA, Indian etc. but cost almost as much as a jeep that can carry a lot more. Hence they were dropped. Germany carried the R75 and Zundapp into production because of how their economy worked (BMW and Zundapp knew the right (or most likely wrong) people) but by the time they got them had switched the infanty units into half-tracks, trucks, kubelwagens etc. You see them in period film and photo's for the exact reason they were used in quieter areas where people would pose rather than run about and shout a lot. A lot of the pictures of the Nortons are from Northern Ireland Garrison units that had time to pose for the press. A lot of the German pictures are the film units own vehicles.

Still mechanically interesting though.

Andy

[Bruce]

Thanks for that, my Norton is a bit more modern than the military ones its a shorter stroke 113mm rather than 120mm.When these outfits were sold after the war the drive shaft (austin 7 propshaft) was removed as with the sidecar drive engaged they would not go around a corner on tarmac.
Re the Deniper my mate Digger (his intials are JCB) has one, you have seen it at the Dragon with a 800cc BMW engine this has sidecar drive as well as reverse gear.The sidecar drive is permantly engaged and it goes around corners OK I don,t think it has a diff but I understand ther is some device in the drive shaft to the sidecar.I have just got back from an event at Much Marcle Herefordshire soaking wet.

[SteveC#222]

There is definitely no diff on Ural/Dneprs. The driveshaft to the sidecar wheel comes directly out of the bevel drive housing on the back wheel of the bike across to the chair wheel - thats why Ural driven chairs are always on the right.  Drive is permanently engaged.  They were usually registered as trikes to get around the right hand chair law, but it's all a bit dodgy as, I believe, the law says that trikes should leave three distinct tracks, not two as the outfit does.

[Andy M]

Now this is a Moto Guzzi  :

http://www.cybermotorcycle.com/gallery/moto_guzzi/Moto_Guzzi_Military_Halftrack.htm

http://www.3wheelers.com/motog.html

Andy

[002]

I believe the earlier Dnieper was permanant 2wd with a diff of course otherwise would be a sod to turn.
Where as the later Ural has a dog clutch from the bike bevel box to drive the sidecar wheel.This gets engaged manually as and when required,and not recommended to engage on hard surfaces.
Bit like a series Landy only engage 4wd when on the loose stuff otherwise Bugger up drive shafts.


Jethro

[stevexbr]

There is definitely no diff on Ural/Dneprs. The driveshaft to the sidecar wheel comes directly out of the bevel drive housing on the back wheel of the bike across to the chair wheel - thats why Ural driven chairs are always on the right.  Drive is permanently engaged.  They were usually registered as trikes to get around the right hand chair law, but it's all a bit dodgy as, I believe, the law says that trikes should leave three distinct tracks, not two as the outfit does.

The ones registered as trikes will not get an MOT these days. Its easy enough to make it legal though , you just need a pre 81 frame and log book and build the outfit around that. There's an easy way and a hard way 

Steve

[Andy M]

The ones registered as trikes will not get an MOT these days. Its easy enough to make it legal though , you just need a pre 81 frame and log book and build the outfit around that. There's an easy way and a hard way 

Steve

There are plenty of non-mechanical nightmares with 3x2 Urals. Trike registration should make the MOT an instant fail, but some test stations pass them, so they are then in dodgy insurance territory. I've also met a guy who'd bought a 200? one and simply dremel'd the rivets holding the VIN plate, fitted the plate from a 197? and got a private/NI plate. I believe that's known as ringing. You can also buy from Lovejoy-esque antique dealers who'll get you one straight from the Ukraine or China. They come with papers stateing they were made in 1955, so tax exempt etc. I heard these papers are all identical, the dealer just fills in the frame and engine numbers. Caveat Emptor.

After my Ural ownership, as much as I fancy the new ones everytime I see one, there's no way I'll pay £9000.

Andy

[stevexbr]

I believe that's known as ringing.
Andy

Ringing is where one of the vehicles involved is stolen. One might be the legal owner of 2 identical frames and decide to get them powder coated , so the VIN plate has to be removed.There could easily be an administrative error and the VIN plates are reaffixed to the opposite frames . Whilst technically incorrect no crime has been committed , as one is still the legal owner of 2 identical frames.

Steve

[SteveC#222]

[/quote]
Whilst technically incorrect no crime has been committed , as one is still the legal owner of 2 identical frames.

Steve
[/quote]

Erm...but if you 'accidentally' swap the VIN plates in order to obtain an MOT and insurance on a machine that could not otherwise get them, I would have thought that was technically fraud? 

Also pre 81 Ural frames (M66) are different to newer (M67 - post 87 I think) ones.  You would have to use a pre 81 frame, together with 2 other major components ( Engine, gearbox, wheels, suspension) to legally retain the pre 81 reg.