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[guest7]

New bikes aren't stylish and have no 'class'. In fact how many 'modern' japanese bikes (70s onwards) could be called stylish?

I drink with a bunch of guys who love their Harleys and one thing always strikes me about their choppers and bobbers, they have pedigree and, as much as it pains me to say it, they have style. In comparision my beloved XBRs look cheap and throwaway.

Is my japanese single a 'real bike'? Will it ever be able to take its place alongside old Beemers, Ducatis and Brit iron?

And... should I care?

GC

[niblue]

What I find interesting about Harleys is the difference in the way their viewed by non-bikers and bikers. Most not bikers seem to think of them as proper motorbikes, where as bikers view them as crap motorbikes.

I suppose to some extent they look good from a  distance - even I think the XR1200 thing looks the part - but in detail they can be very poor, built quality and reliability aren't great and dynamically they're terrible in comparison with most other bikes (including Japanese chop clones). Having said all that an 883 would suit my wife as she's a shortarse, does very little mileage, only in the dry and (most importantly) she's a woman. Unlike most Harley's it's also quite well priced.

If I lived in California I could see the sense in a Harley - little rain and no road-salt so less worries about corrosion, low speed limits, hot weather, straight roads etc. Up here in Scotland it'd be difficult to think of a worse bike for the type of riding I do (all weathers including winter, loads of twisty B-roads, long distances).

Even the XBR isn't great for some of the riding I do, but it's very good for some if it (local A & B road stuff, up to 150 miles or so).

Having said all that I couldn't really care less what others think of the bikes I own - as evidenced by me keeping the dynamically excellent but stylishly challenged Deauville for 10+ years!

[Andy M]

Interesting topic. I was thinking about starting something similar after hanging about on the Newbonneville site. That lot live for adding fake 1960's bling to their bikes and their constant fiddling and moaning about things that go wrong has the potential to raise my blood pressure, but that's another topic. Anyhow, they talk a lot about the style of exhausts or indicators or whatever else they are messing with.

I have no idea what style is, I simply don't get it (insert comments about dress sense here  ). People tell me the Bonneville is a style icon and similar which I don't mind, if it gives them pleasure so be it. Ones who want to waste their lives telling me Triumph copied a '67 Bonneville but used a '73 clutch cover I try (sometimes unsucessfully) to come away from with a touch of diplomacy. I find the ones who tell me it isn't real to simply weird. GC, I imagine there are plenty of such loons who'll always have some sort of hiarachy with a Vincent at the top, BMW's in the middle and the XBR down a bit but do you really care? We all know the majority of people in the world will vote for a Honda C90 as best bike, but there are always a few that will try and ignore straight numbers and rate their BM GS or Ducati as better. It's individual choice, there is no right answer. I think the mass of popular thought in the bike world is coming to accept the world didn't end when BSA went bust, but I can't say if the XBR will ever be on the list of must have bikes.

I saw a BMW R1200S or something yesterday. I thought it looked good. Why? Thinking about it, it looked lighter than most BM's, possibly because the rider was about 7 foot tall and should have been in South Africa helping sort the Springboks out. The idea of a nice flat twin in a light chassis appealed. If I had the cash i might go look at one, but would decide I didn't want eight indicator switches and a CAN networked sandwich toaster where the fuel tank should be before any cash changed hands.

When I look at a bike I think about how it'll ride and how I'll keep it doing what I want it to. I can't bring myself to worry about some abstract notion that a new Tenere looks like a grasshopper or chrome is somehow good. I look at a Harley and think "nice motor pity about the fork angle/bars/pegs". I look at the Bonneville and think it's a great substitute for an airhead BM that I can't get in the condition I want for the money I have.

GC, are you saying a round headlight, teardrop tanked, European style framed bike would be somehow better than the same spec achieved by a different route? I think modern bikes get the spec wrong (don't need 150 mph if that means having my knees near my ears), but if there was a market I'm sure they could get it right. I'm betting you might still not like the result?

Sorry Niblue, I'd take the Deauville over a Harley too, which I guess places you style wise alongside a bloke who rides in a flasher mac 

Andy

[Steffan]

let's get a dose of reality - what is the most commonly recovered bike from Europe - the HD; or so told me the driver that collected my Bullet from Ireland. Let's not mention BMW gearboxes, or the centre bearing on the gooseneck of oilheads, or the broken frames. Let's ignore the tatty finish on Italian bikes or the electrics,or silencers which are rusty straight out of the box. No I think there are plenty of Jap bikes since the 70s which have style. (note I have not mentioned brit iron - best left that way) z650, GPZ900R, first fireblade, there are any number if you think about it.

Style is like happiness it cannot be bought - it just happens over time.

[Richard]

Style is what you're happy with.

I like my Beemer, to others its an old clunker.

I like Steffans Skorpion, to others its  a "good winter bike".

I like Keiths W650, to some its "an old mans bike".

As Ogri said "Stuff everything, I've always got my bike".

[KirriePete]

Style - slippery subject.  For my money a stylish bike has to be either:

a.  Individual
2.  The first to be copied
iii.  Unpretentious
or
x.  Just plain right to look at.

Examples:

a. - Individual - BMW R100RS, R90S
2. - The first - original 'Blade, BMW R80GS
iii. - Unpretentious - CD175, MZ250, Arfur the XBR
x. - Just right - Z650, coffin tank RDs, original LCs

Very few plastic shrouded crotch rockets make me go "Whoar!" - 2001(?) black & silver R1 being one of the few exceptions, probably in category x. - but I damn near dislocated a few vertebrae last week when an old duffer went by on a patinated (scruffy) Ariel Leader - see what I'm saying?

Am I just turning into an old fart?  Would that explain the smell?

[niblue]

I like Keiths W650, to some its "an old mans bike".

Quite fancy one of those myself, to the extent I was thinking about maybe replacing the CBR with one. Does that make me old?

[Steffan]

you're not Scots are you? 

Steffan

[niblue]

you're not Scots are you? 

I'm a mongrel.

[Richard]

you're not Scots are you? 

I'm a mongrel.

Aren't we all ?

[Richard]

To get (slightly) back on track...........

The W650 is a lovely machine.  For my money (IMHO) it is better styled, as a tribute to the British style, than the modern Bonneville.

The Bonneville has a slightly frumpy appearance due to too large an engine and oddly bent exhausts whereas the old Bonie was much more sparse with lots of air visible twixt engine and frame.

The W650 nods towards Norton as well with its bevel shaft, has a mock Triumph engine cover on the wrong side and sometimes a sort of BSA power egg look on the other side.  It goes well enough, is carbed rather than injected but is otherwise thorooughly modern in the electrical dept.

Anybody put a chair on one ?

[niblue]

The only downside I can see with the W650 is that it has developed somewhat of a cult following and that means that the prices are high for even early machines. When I wanted a bike for SWMBO (but which also had to be fun for me) the W650 was my first choice but it looks like it needs £2K+ to get one. Bought the XBR instead though, so it's not all bad!

My 2001 CBR is probably worth about the same as a reasonable W650 though, so I'm still thinking about it.

[Andy M]

The Bonneville has a slightly frumpy appearance due to too large an engine and oddly bent exhausts whereas the old Bonie was much more sp******* with lots of air visible twixt engine and frame.


Anybody put a chair on one ?

Why would you want a smaller engine or a bigger frame? Better cooling?

The Bonneville exhausts are a PITA, you need to take off both silencers to get at the axle nuts. Can't remember if the W650 would have the same issue. It can be cured at the cost of a pair of aftermarket silencers.

When I looked at them, the Kawasaki's were hard to get hold of, were a fair bit down on power and had a drum rear brake which put me off. On the upside they have a kickstart.

I've seen one with a watsonian chair on.

Andy

[guest18]

Interesting subject, still pondering this one... I always think that when considering style, you first need to seperate it from fashion. The two are often confused(!) For me, something which is stylish may be fashionable, however in later years something which is fashionable will be simply quaint whereas a stylish item will still have "it"

To an extent form tends to follow function for many stylish items, but it is not quite that simple... the Spitfire (early marks only) is undoubtedly a stylish design, however when you look again it is quite an art deco design, look again at one and imagine it (or the Supermarine S6 which spawned it) in silver as a desk ornament and it's pure 20's (imho).

The "just right" mentioned by Pete is also a factor, and effectiveness in use also comes into play...

Returning to the original question(ish), the XBR will never be an all time classic, styling not *quite* there, useability good, popularity fair... but it did nothing new, to be fair it's a good all rounder, verry good at many things, good at most but exceptional at none (and I like them!) therefore no, some will like them, good originals may become mildly collectable but they will never imho have that cachet of being stylish and instantly recognisable. Even to afficionados.
going to stop now as this is/has become rather unstructured rambling 

Blimey, if we're going to have "topic of the day" - in 500 words or less "discuss" I really must stop this train of thought rambling and start composing proper arguments 

[robG]

New bikes aren't stylish and have no 'class'. In fact how many 'modern' japanese bikes (70s onwards) could be called stylish?
I drink with a bunch of guys who love their Harleys and one thing always strikes me about their choppers and bobbers, they have pedigree and, as much as it pains me to say it, they have style. In comparision my beloved XBRs look cheap and throwaway.
Is my japanese single a 'real bike'? Will it ever be able to take its place alongside old Beemers, Ducatis and Brit iron?

Interesting. Regarding the ' style ' of modern Jap bikes, there are numerous bikes that spring to mind . 1000 Katana for a start, superb. 400/4 .You all know the soft spot I have for Xs11.Any Kawa triple IMHO.VFR 750 ,brilliant .I could just list numerous bikes ,but this is not what this is about .
Whether a bike has style is down to the individual who says it has.
As for the Harleys and their pedigree, well what's pedigree . A bike is the sum total of the work put into it and the end result reflects the style and likes/dislikes of the owner , regardless of the history of the marque. I've seen some awful Harleys , two wheeled tinsel trucks .But to their owner its what they want.Who am I to 'dis ' his ride simply because it does not appeal to my sense of style .
Your XBR may look cheap and throwaway , because that is what they are designed to be . Mass produced for a market which on the whole bins things in favour of the next new thing .The difference here is that the XBR , along with most of the bike jap singles, appeal to the enthusiast . I would happily find space for a Sr500 or xT 500 any day of the week .
My Bonnie falls into the same niche as the Harley.A modern take on an old idea.Built like that  because it will sell to people who want a traditional looking Triumph . The enjoyment I had on mine over the weekend was priceless .Fine weather , great roads and a superb sound from the aftermarket exhausts .Every time I got off the Bonnie , I turned to look back at it .My eyes were drawn to the tank badge,my Triumph . I agree it's not a '67 Bonnie {or TR6 for that matter },but it never will be. I can't afford the real thing,so until I can,my 2001 Bonnie will have to do .
 
Has it got style ? It has to me and that's all that matters .