I am not sure about this. Watch at your discretion.

[guest18]

My point exactly Gentlemen, they *were* putting others at risk, they were obviously riding outside either their limits or the bikes, or he wouldn't have fallen off on a dry sunny road would he?
Yes brakes and handling are better, but they're also incapable of making 120+ safe when the rest of the muppets expect you to be doing 60, and can 90% of the sportsbike riders use all that handling/power? The number who kill themselves on local roads would suggest otherwise.

I'm no nanny state advocate, I dive a rebreather, I ride a supermoto year round because it's fun. Yes I like hooning around on twisty roads, but that's why I ride a bike where it's possible to use full throttle without endangering any other poor sod who happens to be coming the other way.

If you want to endanger yourself I'll happily assist, I'll take you on dives that people consider excessively risky, because every single decision you make and I make is a calculated risk, but pushing your limits is different from being stupid, and down there if you kill yourself you wont take me with you.
If you want to use a bike for "stupidity" (your word not mine) then I hope you do it on the dirt bike, because no amount of apologies or excuses will help if you hit a pedestrian/car/other biker/kid and you CANNOT say you wont on public roads.

Every ride out I've been on with this club we've said to people "ride within your limits, don't chase if you're uncomfortable", sadly it often falls on deaf ears. I wont tell you what speed to ride at, or what bike to ride, that's your choice. I can't and wont tell you what risks to take or where to take them. But don't tell me these guys were in control, because they weren't, and there was clearly other traffic about so they were not only either on the edge of control or the edge of out of control they were being b***y selfish in doing it where they could quite easily wipe out a third party... who doesn't get to choose 

And don't tell me that they're only as fast as the rider, show me a sportsbike rider who doesn't speed and I'll show you a liar, it's pointless having them unless you're going to open them up and unfortunately the statistics are now proving lots of riders can't handle them 

[guest7]

Er... OK 

Good points all round I'd say.

I'm no fan of restricting personal freedoms, but equally I can see that the rush to ride sportsbikes without building up your experience first is disquieting.

I spoke to a lad recently who asked me and my brother what bike to get after his test, "I really fancy a CBR400 or an NC30".
We replied, "Get a CB500, ER-5 or GS500 and ride the wheels off that for a year first"

He didn't seem keen.

I discussed this with an acquaintance who teaches people to ride and he agreed on our suggestions and added that people should be made aware that the riding position of a sportsbike is not safe for new riders as it reduces the level of machine control in certain circumstances. I thought this was an interesting point and one I had never considered. He also said that the newbie custombike of choice (at the minute), the Suzuki Marauder 125, was equally difficult to ride because of its riding position. But, he concluded, you just can't tell people what to ride.

Without the 125cc (and 250cc) learner restrictions that we all had to endure, there is little chance of a newbie taking his or her time to learn to ride on a less powerful bike before progressing up.

GC

[guest27]

Hi All

A couple of thoughts sparked by GBR and Bullet350...

Are modern bikes too fast - lets have some context please - is an R6 too potent for the average young buck who has just passed his test - probably.  It may only be as fast as the right wrist makes it - but I seem to remember (he he) that the very essence of being a young buck on a bike was to streach the throttle cable to its limit and then pooh yourself braking.It is true - using me as one data point - but I also used to be a M/C instructor - that I have fallen off more small bikes than big.  However - and this is where even with their modern (tele forks modern - nope fashion not modern but we digress) suspension, brakes, tyres etc they are far more 'dangerous' than my old Triton - if she was running.  They may stop quicker, they may be more poised, but the Triton does a ton ten maybe a ton twenty flat out - bits falling off, vision blurred etc.  An R6 tops 150?  A 996 tops what 180?  I have slowed a lot as I have aged, but some time back I was tested on a simplistic rig for reaction time to hazards - well it was really reaction time to apply brake - not assess situation etc.  However my reaction time over a run of 10 was less than .2 seconds, the average they had tested was .3 to .5 seconds.  They had tested a number of world class racers and I was proud to be as fast as them - mind they would have not got into the problems I had etc.. :-)  But from this we can see that on my Triton hooning along I would be looking at shall we say a ton (by this time the speedo had fallen off etc) at a ton I am doing 176000 yards per hour, 160934 M per hour or about 44.5 Metres per second. So the average rider will travel between 22.25 metres and 13.5 metres before they react.  The R6 jock will be doing at the same point - 130?  29 to 17.5 metres - quite a bit further - this is not a one off this is all the time - efectivly on a 'slower' bike I would have some 30% more time to react - whilst still scaring the pants off of myself.  Then there is the impact problem - my physics falls down here - a 'modern' bike accelerates so much quicker that you are probably doing greater speed anywhere - the momentum etc is that much greater.  I also think the most scared I have ever been on a bike was riding a Yamaha Passat - no it is not a passat that is a VW - Passola? (50cc step through)

The guys in the vid not endangering anyone else?  I would suggest working on your observation skills - there are plenty of people who have been threatened - including pedestrians stepping out of the way.

Do I think big fast bikes should be banned - nope they are a fine thing, however do I think our fixation with big fast bikes will have a detrimental effect on all bikes - yes most certainly.  Our fixation is the biggest threat to M/C in the UK it is something we (M/Clists have it in our power to address - but whilst we consider it a threat to our freedom to actually ask - WHY? enough time, then the nanny lobby will win through.

R

[guest18]

A couple of much more reasoned responses than my last 
Apologies if I have upset anyone, carry on the discussion(!) 

[guest7]

A couple of much more reasoned responses than my last 

No worries Smudge, it's good to have a bit of banter and if some of it ends up in shouting then I'm sure we all know we're big and clever enough to shake hands afterwards.

I've enjoyed the forum today, keep up the good work 

GC

[themoudie]

It's those Antipodeans again!   He lost it on the dusty 'Big Red' paw prints!

As for MSL plagiarising (sp ) RIDE, I only buy MSL these days and have to agree that the content has gone 'byte size' rather than a 'good read' Perhaps a gentle chide to the Ed before suspending, as I do still enjoy some of the articles.

Alternatively, I should suspend all mags, memberships and computing, then be off to the workshop! Really must apply myself.

Herumph, Bill.

[guest24]

What a couple of selfish people. If it was a closed circuit, then fantastic! But it wasn't. How many cyclists did they nearly hit? And what about that gorgeous campervan they could have wrecked - sacrilegious.

He was very lucky, 5 feet sooner and he would have missed the wall and left the road............

[guest27]

A lot was filmed on a remote camera - suggesting that they ran the same stretch a number of times - like when he bins it there is a camera running - sounds more and more like a couple of twats to me, trying to go as fast as they could for the camera.  As the commentator said - they had the crown jewels out seeing who had the biggest crown.  The more I watch the more I wonder.  I am all for having a good blat - and ill health / lack of income aside would love to have my Rd500 fettled and working - but this couple??

I would worry about a prosecution for racing on the road if a similar law exists where they were riding - from this.

R

[Richard]

I have always held that it is easier to learn motorcycle control on something with a soft and flexible engine like an Enfield than on a lightweight and relatively peaky 125.  Its not just about power, it is also about delivery.

There again I firmly believe that car drivers should learn in an old style Lada (no power steering) with a sharp 6" spike coming out of the centre of the (non-collapsible) steering wheel.  And no seat belt for the driver.

Morris Minors may also be acceptable.

Richard

[SteveC#222]

I have always held that it is easier to learn motorcycle control on something with a soft and flexible engine like an Enfield than on a lightweight and relatively peaky 125.  Its not just about power, it is also about delivery.

There again I firmly believe that car drivers should learn in an old style Lada (no power steering) with a sharp 6" spike coming out of the centre of the (non-collapsible) steering wheel.  And no seat belt for the driver.

Morris Minors may also be acceptable.

Richard

....It should be compulsory that all car drivers should spend a year riding a motorcycle before they can take their car test... it might stop so many of the bast**ds trying to drive inside my exhaust pipe every bloody day! 

[guest18]

....It should be compulsory that all car drivers should spend a year riding a motorcycle before they can take their car test... it might stop so many of the bast**ds trying to drive inside my exhaust pipe every bloody day! 

It's funny you should say that, my Dad's not one for strong opinions but he's said more than once that people should be obliged to take out a bike licence for a year before they are allowed to apply for a car licence. Reckoned it would give some of them a much better appreciation of how scary a bike can be near badly driven cars and also a better appreciation of the road surface.
Also couldn't hurt the congestion!!

[guest27]

Add to that a year on a push bike before they get a motor.  Despite all the drivel in MCN at the mo I think you learn so much more about some aspects on a pushbike than on M/C - and loads more on a M/C than in a car.

So we are agreed a logbook showing substantial milage on a pushbike from 16 to 17 (min) then ditto form 17 to 18 (min) on a M/C then at least a year in an old banger of a car.

Also think there should be some sort of re-testing to keep a licence - and maybe this should go through the loop too - cycle, M/C car etc...

R

[guest18]

Ahhh, now you are putting words in my mouth 
No, I'd allow mopeds from 14yrs, (strictly 50cc 35mph max, throw the (big) book at them if caught on anything else)
Then 17 motorcycle licence only, but you *must* hold a full (restricted or unrestricted) bike licence before you can get a provisional.
17 on car licence if qualified, but "p" plates and a say a 1300cc max capacity for the first year...

Alternatively allow a restricted bike licence between 16 and 17.

Benefits: More aware car drivers,
Learners starting with "road sense" aquired on mopeds
more people used to two wheels so there will be more remaining on two wheels in future therefore reduced congestion and we get to save the planet and reduce wear on the roads as a side effect...

Thoughts? 

[pigafetta]

Rog,
I'll go with the first two wholeheartedly. Most of the lads I grew up with did exactly that. Not sure about the last one although it would certainly solve congestion problems. How ofted would you suggest a retest? There'd be L-plates and yellow jackets everywhere, the test centres and training schools would make an absolute fortune. I think retesting after certain driving offences, bans or repeated offences would be a good idea. I also think a certain amount of basic maintenance should be included in the test. Checking if your lights are working is not enough. I'm not too sure about the current bike licensing laws anyway. If you're over 21 you can do a Direct Access and go from L-plates to an R1 in the time it takes to do your test. Perhaps a year with restricted bhp might be safer.

[guest18]

ok, restrictions don't work because bikes are built/modified around the criteria and the police can't catch people for it anyway without a workshop examination.
Just enforce the dangerous/careless riding laws. The R1 rider will lose his licence to a speed camera quickly anyway 

Retest for any licence every ten years, or fifteen if you have passed an advanced test in the interim.

Automatic retest for a dangerous driving conviction or drunk driving.

Do I get the vote?