Start the week topic

[guest7]

Should we, as experienced riders, respond to the huge increase in bike accidents by seeking to help instruct newer riders?

At which point do we have to stop whinging about 'Born Agains' and take an active role in reducing the accident rate? Especially as increased accident rates mean higher insurance and poor public perception of bikers.

Cheers
GC

[guest40]

This seems to be a problem too in the antipodes

If by "born agains" you are refering to older riders coming back onto the roads, and not realising the changes to traffic flow, intensity and laws and regulations,then it could be a worldwide problem. We have had a few minor incidents recently on club runs with inexperienced riders, but they were mainly newbies (licenced less than 3 months) having problems reading the road.
However we are also experiencing younger hoons going crazy on the roads fuelled by a variety of drugs and bravado. The impetus seems to be copycatting the idiots on U tube etc that regularly wipe themselves off at ridiculous speeds. At the other end of the scale we in WA have people riding 50cc scooters without any road or safety training (they can ride these on car licenses) They travel in heavy traffic with thongs, shorts and tees, at 55kph in 70 kph traffic.
We as experinced riders can only TRY to educate these people when we see a problem and hope they listen, and not tell us to "go forth and multily" ourselves

[Andy M]

Would the people who need it take the training?

I did CBT, then the old class 2 test, a BMW off road weekend, MIRA and company track/risk assessment training (not bikes, but you still learn something) and a police ridesafe event. Without wishing to jinx myself I've had two very minor hits (cut shin was the worst) and one near miss in 15 years. I'd say only the first one (car swung wide right to turn left, I clipped his back end), less than a year in was my fault. The others were classic T-bones and were probably saved as the training controlled my tendency for excess speed, improved observation and my ability to brake and turn on wet painted surfaces (BMW ABS helped on the near miss).

Compare this to the guys who ride in the office. Mr. Harley is 40-odd and has about 10 years riding experience. He ran off the road simply by getting too much speed on overtaking a truck at the end of a dual carriageway and not braking hard enough before the corner. He likes the idea of a ridesafe type event but as he only rides 15 days a year and never in the rain is going to struggle to get to one. Good news is that he's just done a HOG trip to Rome and seemed to learn a lot in those 2000 miles. Mr. Sportbike is 27 and is riding some sort of 1000cc Kawasaki. He thinks 600's are girls bikes (bought the Kawa the day before his test) and is always pointing out that his one piece leathers and Arai save him whenever he falls off. Him or one his mates comes off every weekend. The guy who spent 8 weeks in hospital taught them nothing except where to sell a bent frame. He's had no training since his test and won't take any cos his mates will take the ****. I guess he didn't tell them about the time I passed him on the Bonneville because he can't get over 30 on half the bends.

So, I'd sign up for pretty much any training that's going. Mr. Harley would come if it was a nice day. Mr. Sportsbike would be too busy doing the ton on the straight bits and falling off on the corners!

IMHO the guys who most need the training are least likely to take it. I don't know what the solution is. The chance for clubs to take new riders under their wing is only going to catch people that decide to build up their experience, not ones who want to get straight into 190mph race bikes on the road. To me it's sportsbike and "I want it now" culture we have to beat.

This sounds really down doesn't it. Ask me again on Friday 

Andy

[Steve Lake]

Well, yes....problem is............very few would take up the offer of help.....it's a macho thing, and however hard you try the message doesn't get across
Only last week, i was at a traffic lights when a scooter pulled up beside me, flip-flops, tee shirt and shorts (one of our few hot days) i flipped up my visor and said 'I kew a guy who died, simply from the road rash he sustained coming off at 30 MPH, dressed like that, PLEASE wear some protective clothing' the lights changed and the dulcet tones of.....well....it began with C ended with T and might have had a U in it somewhere was to be heard as he whipped off round the corner.....

So....yes, i'm all for it, but you do need a receptive audience for any hope of success

I did the police 'bikesafe' course here in norfolk, and it took me a year to get on it! it was so oversubscribed....and when i did, it was interesting to note that everyone was over 40...
was an excellent week..and I put my continued health and happiness down to what i learned

BUT....in a way they were preaching to the converted.

I think the direct access training etc should only be available once you have, and wear correct approved protective clothing....I know once finished and passed the test it may get abandoned but
at least they will have it, and have got used to using it.

[Richard 003]

I don't think it's about "born agains" any more. Born agains were a generational phenomenon of the 1990s. It's just about macho 20 and 30 somethings who think they're race heroes.

[guest27]

Hi All

Should we as 'experianced' riders try to help those with less knowledge?  I guess the simple answer is that we are either part of the solution or part of the problem.

Winds back the clock to another age - used to be an instructor for the Defensive Riders Association in Plymouth.  We would often get the young bucks having their brand new 125 delivered to our centre and they would turn up with a flash helmet and trainers, no gloves - especially in the summer, shorts were not unknown. We would get them all out on the training ground to do some 'warm up' before riding, walk them around the course etc.  Then have them line up at one end of the tarmac sheet and tell them to start running as fast as they could, when we sounded the hooter they were to dive full length on the tarmac and see who could slide the furthest.  Most refused, which was a good intro to protective clothing and falling off a bike, some were up for it, these were a little harder to deal with.

The great thing I found about the DRA was that all bar one of the instructors rode a bike that the learners would aspire to, they were not being instructed by a BoF on a BMW.  (It worked for me too as a one time student).  Also Pete the Police man who did the advanced instruction would come down on his 250 superdream (no aspirations there) and ride the wheels off the rest of us on our 750 fours, 350LCs etc.  We would listen to him and take on hboard what he was saying because he could ride the thing and not just pontificate from the back of a R100.

Spin it forwards a number of years and I started riding with Northampton IAM.  There was me (RD500) a guy on a Suzuki 1000 and a whole load of broomhandles on BMs.  There was stuff to learn, but being instructed by some plonker who had been riding 3 years and had just bought his nice new BM (a much better bike than the RD500 as it was just as fast - well it would do 70 and you were not allowed to do any more - and you could tour on it) did not work for me.  Mr Suzuki and I got real fed up with the 'properness' of the whole thing.  What really did for me was one of the guys coming up to me at an 'instruction' stop and saying that I seemed to be having troubles with reading the corners, and on the next streach to follow him.  My mate (R80 rider) said afterwards that he was surprised that I did not bop the guy on the nose, Adrian knew what I (and Mr Suzuki) were doing - slowing down before the corners so we could have fun in them.   Followed Mr 3 years for about a mile - nearly hitting him at one point as he decisded to brake mid corner - just as it was opening out - when a nice series of bends opened up in front of us - could see them some way off, how the ran etc.  I dropped well back from Mr 3 years and had a nice run at them which did involve passing him at one point.  He was not impressed.  I did not bother going back.

Interestingly some weeks before this another copper and another Pete had come along - he was the local IAM examiner too - on his Honda Benly, we each took it in turn to be followed by him.  His feed back was brilliant.  He assessed each of us before we rode with him - whast we were riding, what we were like etc, and he observed that person.  My mate on the R80 found that the feed back about his positioning etc really helped him and his bike to address some of the problems he had.  Before we set off Pete asked me to let him keep up on the straights but to enjoy the corners.  He picked a particulaly twisty section of road and we did have fun.  Looking back to see if he was with me and seeing the big grin on his face as said Benl;y was in a lovely two wheel drift bouncing across the road as we swung through the bend was brilliant.  He stopped me and made some suggestions about road position and braking.  Never questioned the brake light coming on in the midst of a LRL set of bends - because he knew that the 16" front would pull back up nice with a slight feather of brake etc etc.  We arrived in the next stop some time before the rest of the group and had a good chat about the ins and outs of "making progress".  If he had been there even 1 week out of 4 I would have continued, as he was not I could not take the preaching.

Cut to the present - local copper runs training runs at the weekend.  He has a few bikes to ccall on - depending on who he is riding with and where they are going.  His favorite is a 1:1 or 2:1 all day session up through mid Wales and back again.  I never got to go with him as this stupid ME has stopped me riding, but he was keen to get me back in the groove.  Talking to him, I would have gone out and listened / enjoyed myself.

So are we part of the solution, or are we part of the problem?  Is training about being safe, or about being a better rider?  Is it about being sensible or having more fun?

Just some thoughts from someone who has had / possibly does have a "poor" attitude - and has fallen off too many times and is willing to admit that they are all due to a lack of skill (even sliding off on sheet ice).

R

[hondamichael]

the main problem are not the "born agains " or the "newbees" in general , the problem are bikers
who think they have to ride a gsxr,r1,cbr ....(fast sportsbikes) to be accepted within the biker community as real bikers and they have to ride above 120mph to have fun on a bike, because thats what new riders are getting told , when i bought my cbf250 everyone even newbees ask me why the hell would i want to ride a bike thats not faster then 80mph , and i could hardly have fun on that , and i could not keep up in traffic with it  , of course my experience and my lisence would allow me to buy a hayabusa turbo with more then 400bhp (ok there is a money issue ), but why ? 95%of the time i ride around town and  country lanes , and for that purpose the  20bhp are enough to keep up and even overtake some cars when its safe to do so , ok i get always overtaken by some riders of sportsbikes riding like they are training to win the isle of man tt next year , ignoring every  roadmarking,and every roadsign , and telling everybody proudly about theire 5th crash in the last 3 month , or are upset about theire 2nd driving ban ,only because a copper did flash them doing 130 on a single carriageway A road as it was safe to ride at that speed , or the peeps fitting racecans onto theire sportsbikes and to make them sound better they take the baffles out but ride with earplugs because its to loud for them and wonder why local residents are upset about bikes

these are the problems ..ok there might be some more but these are the main ones which politicians make feel thay have to do something against bikers

[MrFluffy]

Is there a "HUGE increase in accidents?". Where does this figure come from???
Can you explain this graph?

(Its from a government website, with figures supplied by the TRRL.)

Or see the report from the transport select committee.
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmtran/264/26405.htm
There are a lot of words and hand wringing , but if you read the cold numbers in the table, accidents have fallen over the years despite a increase in the number of bikes on the road.
Total motorcycle    28,212    28,810    28,353    28,411    25,641    24,824
And don't forget that covers a category called PTW, which encompasses pizza delivery scooters right up to hyperbikes.

Our own worst enemies. *shakes his head in despair*

[Andy M]

OMG, not the statistics !!

I can never remember who said the thing about lies, ****** lies and statistics, but I'd go with their idea every time. The calculated numbers are falling, although statistically you'd probbaly call them flat. The total numbers are falling, but there is doubt about the police reporting since they have casualty reduction figures to meet and do nice little tricks like only recording accidents where an ambulance actually took someone away. The death rate is always compared to cars with a nice big mention of modern A&E techniques and so on.

The bottom line is that people who don't like a rice rocket with an aftermarket exhaust scaring Granny and giving little Beyonce and Robbie ideas about what they'd like to do when they old enough will find a way to present the stats so they prove we need banning!

As I said above I've no idea what the solution is, but I prefer the training idea to a GPS linked speed limiter and radar unit. These BTW exist now, we are only missing the detailed map (3 years away) and legislation (hopefully much longer! No truck operator will keep his drivers if he's the only one using the thing). Anything we can do that's positive helps put our slant on the stats.

Strewth, Tuesday puts me in an even blacker mood than Monday! Roll on the weekend and pass me the fuel card 

Andy

[Richard 003]

I could be completely wrong, but I've a feeling the figures have been increasing again in the past 4 or 5 years (ie after that chart finishes)

[MrFluffy]

Richard if you follow the link the figures are for more recent years.

                          2000    2001    2002    2003    2004    2005
Motorcycle riders    26,513    27,135    26,628    26,733    24,201    23,484

[guest27]

Hi All

well I have charted out the data to look for the underlying systemic story - just cannot post the chars and the story on here - can I lift a chart from excel to ?? where and then link to here?

R

[Andy M]

If the death/serious injury rate is approximately 10 per 1000 motorcycles, does that mean i've more than twice the chance of getting the chop because I own two and 9/10ths? 

Andy

[guest18]

But you can only ride one at a time... so subtract 100% chance of safety (for the bike you're not riding) from your first figure (percentage chance of accident) and prove whatever the hell you like 

 

[squirrelciv]

Should we, as experienced riders, respond to the huge increase in bike accidents by seeking to help instruct newer riders?

At which point do we have to stop whinging about 'Born Agains' and take an active role in reducing the accident rate? Especially as increased accident rates mean higher insurance and poor public perception of bikers.

Cheers
GC

I don't see how we can respond to be honest. Can't see some guy on an R1 thinking much more than "knob" if I came along side and advised him on his line through the next series of bends.
As for whinging about 'born agains', never really gone in for that sort of thing anyway. To be honest, I wouldn't know one from a lifer who's just got fed up of riding in the crap weather and can afford both car and bike.
Let's face it, us lot can't do anything about it anyway unless we get political, and bigger fish than us have had limited success at that already (read BMF/MAG). Better off chilling out and relaxing in the safe and secure knowledge that we are in the right and the rest are idiots destined to self destruct