Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: SteveC#222 on November 29, 2015, 09:46:44 AM
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p039d5x9 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p039d5x9) ( sorry can't post the video direct)
"Biker Adrian Chiles gives electric bike a test drive
Would you buy an electric vehicle? With more than 40,000 electric and hybrid cars and vans on the UK’s roads, it seems more people than ever are prepared to make the change.
Lawrence Marazzi, co-founder of British electric motorbike maker Saietta, says Britain is “going through a real change moment” – for two-wheelers as well as four-wheel vehicles.
“It’s like the moment that everybody adopted mobile phones or the moment everybody adopted the internet," he says.
But what are the bikes actually like to ride? 5 live Daily’s Adrian Chiles agreed to swap his petrol guzzling model for Saietta’s electric racing bike on a test track in Oxfordshire.
This clip is from a 5 live Daily special coming up on 1 December 2015."
Personally no -
While I can see the 'green' benefits it's only as green as the power source charging it up!
Also ( no doubt) range will be an issue - a lot of people use their bikes for long mileages at weekends so 100 mile or so range isn't going to be much use.
Lastly the noise - or lack of it. Takes half the fun away and no-one will hear you coming - there use to be a slogan " loud pipes save lives" and to some extent I think that is true.
What do we think?
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Very interesting..........I wouldn't like to commit myself until I've had a go.....I certainly wouldn't be prepared to pay the premium price you have to pay for an electric car though.
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there's 2 issues that currently stop me considering an electric vehicle, price (predominantly batteries), and capable distance on one charge, and charge time. oops that's 3.
so the whole thing revolves (hmmm) round the power source.... it'll all take off (hmmmmmm), when battery development makes a break through, and once development costs have been covered.
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Never. No. Not a chance. They will have to prize my dead, cold hands off the bars of a proper bike before I ever thought electric. My lifelong love affair has been with the internal combustion engine not electricity.
I think that states my case adequately.
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No problem with it. Don't care about noise or having a different tool kit.
It will however have to improve on the performance of internal combustion. I want a 300 mile range, 5 minute recharge available in every town, a 15 year life before I have any major work to do and then I want to do that myself.
Not that I'm particularly green but the jury is still out on total life effect. Scrapping working petrol vehicles to make batteries that contain lead and last 5 years seems wasteful.
Andy
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p039d5x9 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p039d5x9) ( sorry can't post the video direct)
"Biker Adrian Chiles gives electric bike a test drive
Would you buy an electric vehicle? With more than 40,000 electric and hybrid cars and vans on the UK’s roads, it seems more people than ever are prepared to make the change.
Lawrence Marazzi, co-founder of British electric motorbike maker Saietta, says Britain is “going through a real change moment” – for two-wheelers as well as four-wheel vehicles.
“It’s like the moment that everybody adopted mobile phones or the moment everybody adopted the internet," he says.
But what are the bikes actually like to ride? 5 live Daily’s Adrian Chiles agreed to swap his petrol guzzling model for Saietta’s electric racing bike on a test track in Oxfordshire.
This clip is from a 5 live Daily special coming up on 1 December 2015."
Personally no -
While I can see the 'green' benefits it's only as green as the power source charging it up!
Also ( no doubt) range will be an issue - a lot of people use their bikes for long mileages at weekends so 100 mile or so range isn't going to be much use.
Lastly the noise - or lack of it. Takes half the fun away and no-one will hear you coming - there use to be a slogan " loud pipes save lives" and to some extent I think that is true.
What do we think?
I pretty much go along with you across the board Steve. Thinking about electric vehicles in general I could see the biggest benefit being city use. Benefits (as I see them) being no local pollution, very good low rpm torque from the motor and (I assume) no need for a gearbox (at the speed range typical in city use) and the fact that refilling is done while I sleep. All these benefits pretty much become a hindrance once out of the city and onto the open road and/or wanting to cover distance.
Regarding pollution, as you say that's only as good as the power source, but to be fair a proportion of this is "green". I'm hesitant to classify nuclear power as "green" though! Regarding efficiency, that's ultimately only as good as the power source, but I'm betting that, overall, the efficiency is higher than an "personal" internal combustion engine.
Another, more philosophical point is, if we all converted to electric vehicles overnight, the power stations wouldn't cope. So we'd need a lot more of them. I think it's good to have a balance of electric and non electric vehicles.
From a totally selfish angle, given that the vast majority of my motorcycling is undertaken for enjoyment, there's no way I'd want an electric bike! But then if I was commuting daily through a city I'd say yes I would want one, but only specifically for that purpose.
Good topic for a lively discussion!
Cheers
Andy.
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I can see the argument for a scooter style city commuter bike where mileage would probably be reasonably low and the instant 'power' would be an advantage at the lights. I still think the lack of noise could be dangerous and you would need an accurate gauge of battery life, from experience of lithium ion's ( on my camera) it seems to be full-full-full-full-full-full-dead. Also weight and cost of replacement could be an issue - I don't think many of the current electric/hybrid cars have been on the road long enough yet to require replacement batteries which I imagine would be well into 4 figures.
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I had a Honda hybrid as a company car. The tax was better than diesel and performance fine. The company later banned them as it was doing 30 mpg on unleaded rather than 55 on diesel and the hire company upped the rental once they realised a 4 year old 100000 mile hybrid was worth about 2p while a diesel still has auction value.
Higher fuel use and recycling the used batteries doesn't seem green. I guess the pollution tests don't allow for the fact you can use a "city" car for cross country if you arent paying anything except the company car tax.
Andy
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Yes, but doubt I could afford it given the premium.
Mind you I'm a tight old git who runs around on two stroke MZs.
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"Loud pipes save lives" here ,here. Great example of this was this weekend, just got back from weekend away in (not so sunny) whitby. The amount of people that walked out in front of our car (a reasonably quite petrol merc) while driving thro the town centre was quite frankly breathtaking. If I,d av been on/in something with a fruity noise I,d bet at least 90% of those people would av heard me coming and not stepped off the kerb, or at least looked first. (Which none did)
Regarding the electric bike debate/topic the lack of noise alone would stop me buying one, personally for me a big part of my biking enjoyment is going up and down the gearbox and listening to the engine/exhuast note "singing" away beneath me. I like most can understand the "green" issues involved but until I,m forced down that particular route I,m afraid i,ll be sticking to something with a good ol fashioned fossil fuel burning engine. Preferably one with a fruity pipe attached to it. (Oh and possibly a supercharger, looking forward to seeing joolz,s project) Got to say tho what a good/interesting topic, looking forward to seeing/reading how it goes. Cheers. Michael
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Im not a huge fan of electric vehicles, I can see the benefits from an engineering point of view but the technology for batteries is still very poor with long charge times and short duration, they are also hideously expensive, and unless its being charged from a green source of power, you are just moving the exhaust from the vehicle to a central power generating facility.
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On a slightly related topic. Regenerative braking. Or even just the process of slowing down for that matter......
Any thoughts?
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Makes perfect sense on a vehicle that already has the hardware and would have a retarder anyway. Busses for example.
They do stupid things though. There is a certain hybrid bus that needs the Diesel running for the heating and air con :-X
Andy
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Could the electric motor double up as a generator?
Apply throttle, you draw current from the battery.
Throttle off and you put it back. Apply the brake lever and you put even more back.
The conventional brake would need to kick in at a certain pressure I guess.
Dunno.
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Erm.... isn't that KERS (as used in F! cars)?... can either store kinetic energy in a flywheel, or to batteries...
has been promoted on Top Gear for quite a while... still, who takes any notice of willy wonker Clarkeson....
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The last company I worked for made electronic controllers for disabled scooters golf carts bomb disposal robots and other electric motor controllers, it was no problem to incorporate regen braking into the system, but it only restores a tiny fraction of power back into the system, I suspect at higher speeds it would work better. The motors would become generators on slowing
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I had a listen to the show on 5 Live this morning, very interesting, The topic was actually on electric vehicles in general and is worth a listen. Basically it sounds like there is a strong case for their use in a commuting role and charging time and range have vastly improved over the last few years though the next real breakthrough in battery technology is at least 5-10 years away.
The discussion is in the first hour of the show with the motorcycle bit about 50 minutes in. Interestingly the motorcyclists interviewed for their views brought up the same concerns we did - range and lack of noise.
Have a listen on catchup if you have time - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06qhdzc (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b06qhdzc)
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I suspect one would have heard something very similar to some of the comments here when those new fangled internal combustion engines came on the scene. "Nothing wrong with a horse - and what's more I like the smell"........
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I suspect one would have heard something very similar to some of the comments here when those new fangled internal combustion engines came on the scene. "Nothing wrong with a horse - and what's more I like the smell"........
I suspect the horse will outlive the internal combustion engine.
Not sure about electromagnetism!
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The last company I worked for made electronic controllers for disabled scooters golf carts bomb disposal robots and other electric motor controllers, it was no problem to incorporate regen braking into the system, but it only restores a tiny fraction of power back into the system, I suspect at higher speeds it would work better. The motors would become generators on slowing
One major fundamental snag with any rear wheel drive vehicle with regards "back driving" the motor as a generator would be the limit on braking torque, I would imagine?
If the motor was driving only the front wheels then, theoretically, could you not arrange it to load up with as much power as it had in driving forwards mode?
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Could the electric motor double up as a generator?
o.
Exactly.
The torque drops off so you still need a conventional brake, but if you have the motor and batteries already the regenerative system isn't adding much else than software and maybe some cooling stuff. On a city bus its a no brainer. On a bike that might not brake for hours on a motorway, might brake hard enough to need conventional braking on a twisty road and might only do 2000 miles a year who knows.
Andy
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Could the electric motor double up as a generator?
Apply throttle, you draw current from the battery.
Throttle off and you put it back.
A number of vehicles already do that, putting the energy back into the battery.
EVs would be a lot more effective if they could come up with a battery that could be charged and discharged to it limits, currently LifePo batteries are only used to 50 or 60% of their capacity to extend their life, its a lot of extra weight to be carrying around.
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I suspect one would have heard something very similar to some of the comments here when those new fangled internal combustion engines came on the scene. "Nothing wrong with a horse - and what's more I like the smell"........
The first vehicles were mainly electric but the battery technology wasn't up to the task - that was something like 120 years ago and we're still waiting.
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As the other 'arf has no licenses to drive anything [apart from me daft] I have bought her an electric scooter. It is limited to 20kph [you can go faster if you know how to] but the beauty of it is that you do not require a licence. road tax or insurance to drive it. Anyone over the age of 14 can drive. You can drive it in cycle lanes and you are not required to wear a helmet. I love riding it myself without a helmet and the looks people give you for NOT wearing a helmet and of course being stopped by the old bill and then explaining to him it is legal and showing proof. Basically it is classified as an electrically assisted pedal cycle [EAPC]. Yes I know I should wear a helmet but the fun factor out weighs the risk factor. Have a look here....http://eriderbikes.com/e-rider-new-model-15/
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Could the electric motor double up as a generator?
o.
Exactly.
The torque drops off so you still need a conventional brake, but if you have the motor and batteries already the regenerative system isn't adding much else than software and maybe some cooling stuff. On a city bus its a no brainer. On a bike that might not brake for hours on a motorway, might brake hard enough to need conventional braking on a twisty road and might only do 2000 miles a year who knows.
Andy
Motorbikes tend to be pretty light. Lowish drag. So they don't need a lot of power to get up to a reasonable speed in a reasonable time. So I guess the need for regenerative braking is not a high priority. Then again, if the bike is electrically powered and all that's needed is some software........
In a nutshell, bikes are green!
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Could the electric motor double up as a generator?
o.
Funny...... I,m sure my trumpet was black :-) :-) :-)
In a nutshell, bikes are green!
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As the other 'arf has no licenses to drive anything [apart from me daft] I have bought her an electric scooter. It is limited to 20kph [you can go faster if you know how to] but the beauty of it is that you do not require a licence. road tax or insurance to drive it. Anyone over the age of 14 can drive. You can drive it in cycle lanes and you are not required to wear a helmet. I love riding it myself without a helmet and the looks people give you for NOT wearing a helmet and of course being stopped by the old bill and then explaining to him it is legal and showing proof. Basically it is classified as an electrically assisted pedal cycle [EAPC]. Yes I know I should wear a helmet but the fun factor out weighs the risk factor. Have a look here....http://eriderbikes.com/e-rider-new-model-15/
(http://eriderbikes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/e-scooter-6-1.jpg)
Thats quite impressive! I can see why the Old Bill would take an interest! Ideal to get down the local shops or for a short city commute., this is where electric bikes have a future.
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Interesting thread this. Yes, I would tend to agree, that there is definitely a future for short range commuting for these.
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Are we saying that I can nip down the local, get myself outside 5 pints of the 'usual', potter home on said electric scoot, and put 2 fingers up to plod and his breathalyzer ?...
I seem to recall this happening many years ago with some toff on his way home from the west end on a Sinclair C5....?
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Are we saying that I can nip down the local, get myself outside 5 pints of the 'usual', potter home on said electric scoot, and put 2 fingers up to plod and his breathalyzer ?...
I seem to recall this happening many years ago with some toff on his way home from the west end on a Sinclair C5....?
ha ha ha ha ha, not sure if that's true Steve but certainly conjures up some fantastic images doesn't it and like you say makes for an interesting talking point as to wether one can get merrily p......ed then tootle home on said scoot. Can see the sales of these things taking off big time if that's the case.
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You can be done for being drunk in charge of a bicycle But ( and don't quote me) I don't think it can effect your driving license.
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Scorshh. Scorsh I can... hic.... zzcontrol thiz mo der skooder occifer hic. ;D ;D ;D
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Under the affluence of inchahol your honour :D
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Yes Steve, that's how I understand it, and the Toff on the Sinclair C5 contested that very point, and kept his licence..... but.... it's more than likely that DVLA/authorities have plugged that loophole.... might be worth checking somewhere... like wiki.. or something
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the law is quite complex on the fine definition of what is an electrically assisted bicycle and what is an electric motorcycle, its all down to design speeds and weights. as has been said, 18kph iirc for the current law, and there are some distinctions betweeen electrical assistance, in that you need to keep pedaling and the motor assists, or electrically powered, where you just twist the grip and its away. my daughter has a powabyke which can be switched between the two settings and can do an electric power only speed of nearly 15mph, with electrically assisted speed as quick as you can pedal it. the law was changed last year to complicate stuff a bit, and you can still buy electric assisted mountain bikes on ebay with a top speed getting on for 30mph, technically its a moped and should have tax insurance mot, reg doc, etc, but how does plod at the roadside prove that?
as for electric bikes, id have one if i needed to commute on a bike every day, simply so i can then save my normal bike for the weekends and holidays, saving wear and tear as well as running costs. and as ive got 4kw of solar power at home, i can charge it with green power too.
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I love riding it myself without a helmet and the looks people give you for NOT wearing a helmet and of course being stopped by the old bill and then explaining to him it is legal and showing proof.
My girlfriend's son had one of these but stopped using it because of the abuse he got from people when he was riding on cycle paths. He found it too slow for road use, I think people will expect a bicycle to be doing 15mph but have less patience when it looks like a moped.
I have an electric bicycle but it weighs more than an old butcher's bike, despite its alloy frame.
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Electric motors need lots of iron and copper. Poorly cooled electric motors need to be large. But solve the cooling problem and the size shrinks a lot.
I believe some industrial motors where space is an absolute premium, have hollow copper windings. Cooling oil is pumped through. They are considerably smaller than a motor with solid windings and rated at the same power.
Water cooling the casing would help, but the windings are where the heat really builds up. I guess.
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I've had a fully electric car for the last 20 months. It costs me less to lease than my last car (a Skoda Yeti) did. The lease is £230 a month over 2 years for 24,000 miles.
It costs about £1.20 to charge up the battery on Economy 7 overnight. A full charge has lasted over 90 miles on numerous ocassions although I try to stick to 85 miles (or less) between charges. For 1000 miles a month it costs me about £18 in electricity costs at home.
The furthest I have travelled was from Edinburgh to St Ives (with a detour to South Wales). Charging on the motorway services cost me £0. Largest one day trip was Portsmouth back to Edinburgh, which I think was about 520 miles. Obviously there were a few stops to charge but they coincided with comfort breaks anyway. I've also taken the car to Silverstone where I rescued another (diesel) car by giving them a jump start from the 12v battery on my car. The look on the drivers face was priceless.
Servicing costs are less than £70 every 18,000 miles.
The way these cars pick u speed away from the traffic lights is addictive. I've easily kept up with Range Rover sports and also a few bikes. A TT600 rider was shocked to see me keep up with him, at least for a little while, away from the lights.
Still not convinced about Electric engines, then give yourself a treat and take a test drive of a Tesla Model S :). I'm not so convinced about Electric bikes as yet, especially with the high purchase cost. I wouldn't mind a shot of one though.
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I forgot to say that my car is a Nissan Leaf. Goes without saying that I would love to lease a Tesla with it's greater acceleration and battery capacity but the cost it too prohibitive for me just now.
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Thank you, great to have real world info from the horses mouth. Very interesting :)
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Thanks Timbo.
One point I should have made is that when the car is serviced you get a factory trained mechanic to carry out the work who must have a certificate for high voltages. Those 400 volts lurking around the orange wires and the 24 kilowatt battery pack do not take prisoners. Something as simple as a brake pad change could kill.
For a witty perspective on electric cars check out Robert Llewellyn's (presenter on scrap heap challenge and red dwarf) videos on you tube. On one you'll find out that electric cars have roughly been around for as long as petrol cars. They were used as taxi's where the battery trays could be swapped out in 4 minutes for a fully charged set. In the olden days there weren't many petrol stations so ICE drivers would get range anxiety😄
What killed off the electric car then? Apparently Henry Ford's wife did not like the starting handle to get the ICE working. The electric starter was the solution. Electric starters killed off the battery powered car! Not any more ..... those electric engines are far more efficient. As for them being too quiet - I've been beside the road when my wife was driving past in the Leaf. With the road noise from the tyres it was a noisy as every other car going past.
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The Radio 5 programme gave a very similar impression - the current range of electric cars are very useable with some planning but we are still a few years and a couple of battery generations away from them being the norm though they will definitely be so in the future.
My main worry with the current range wouldn't be so much with the range of the batteries - most journeys are less than 40-50 miles - but with the life of the battery pack. Any re chargable battery system has a finite life before capacity drops off and they must cost a lot of money to replace - must be in the £0000's - while my 100,000 mile van and car still have some value, surely an electric car nearing the point of needing the battery pack replacing would be worth practically nothing? ( rather like trying to sell a car with a knacked engine & gearbox). If so they are going to have a relatively short lifespan compared to a conventional car ( or 17 year old van).
Also looking at them from a commuting point of view - I assume that if you use the lights ( evening commute) that would reduce the range?
Still don't think electric motorcycle are going to be viable ( beyond commuting scooters) until they come up with a smaller more powerful battery with a short recharge time.
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I wouldn't be interested in a electric bike as I love tinkering about with engines (2 or 4 stroke) and get as much enjoyment out of that as I do riding my bikes. However, for a car, I'd be tempted, cheap running costs etc sounds good to me ;D
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Did I understand right, that the power for the leaf is 24kw?
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Yep, the battery pack is 24kw with 21kw of usable power. The lights and all the usual electrics are fed by the normal 12v battery. The drain by the lights is negligible really. The electric motor and the heater are the biggest users of power. There is no alternator to charge up the 12v battery, that is done by an invertor fed by the 24kw battery pack.
As for the life of the battery. I know a taxi firm in St Austells who have a fleet of Nissan Leafs. One has gone over 100,000 miles and I think it has only recently dropped one bar on the battery display. Each bar is 8%. Thei firm have their own rapid chargers and use these 6/7 times each day to charge the taxi's.
Taking everything into consideration the Leaf has saved me over £4,000 when compared to the Yeti. Other benefits are that I don't have to wait for the engine to warm up before using the heater. In icy weather I defrost the car by using a phone App. No more scraping the windscreens and fighting with frozen doors :)
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Defrost a windscreen using a phone app. Whatever next??? They,ll be telling us that riding a motorcycle is the best way to beat congestion. Hhhhmmmmm:-) :-). Ps impressive figures tho, 4000. Squidlys saving, not bad at all
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Nice comment Moto63. Made me laugh👍
Today I've had been driving a 180bhp diesel car. After 200 miles I'll be glad to get back to the electric car. Next I need to get a test drive of one of those Electric BMW motorcycles. Should be a whole load of fun!
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So 32hp then. Amazingly low for a car. It's bound to limit the top speed, but I'm guessing (having never driven one) that the constant torque characteristic of the motor (again I'm making an assumption) makes accelerating up to the top speed belie the fact it's only got 32hp? What will that power get you up to? Bout 70mph?
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If I remember correctly the bhp figure has been assessed at about 105. 93mph is the top speed. Ample.
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For info the motor is rated at 80kw. Stats from the car show that I average 15% energy regeneration from slowing down / braking.
Average mile to kWh, for me, is 4.3. I have stretched that to 6 from time to time.
Why not take Nissan up on their 2 day demo offer? If you have you own garage / drive with power, you can charge the Leaf with a 13amp / 3 pin socket. Going further will require a charge your car card to access the public charge points.
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To be honest I didn't realise that bmw had done a lecci motor siccle, well apart the the kiddy toy thing which surely doesn't count?? Had to google it, more like a scooter the ones that came up, apart from some very, very nice looking concept lecci bikes. (Could see one o them with a nicely tuned XBR engine installed parked in my garage) When you watch people like mc Guinness going around the TT course on the mugen one can't help but be pretty impressed by the way these things have come on in recent years. Personally I still think the lack of engine/gearbox and exhuast note would take some of mine riding enjoyment away, however i will reserve my absolute judgement until I ride one. Cheers. Michael
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From what I have heard about the electric motorcycles there are so fast that you don't need the distraction of the exhaust noise. It's all about riding the bike and understanding the technical aspects of the battery / power unit / regen.
I'm all for classic bikes and cars using an ICE. Would I buy a new petrol / diesel car, not a chance. The £4,000 saving I have made do far will pay for an awful lot of hire cars should I ever need to do a long journey in a short time.
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A bit less full on now .... Check out YouTube for Tesla insane / ludicrous mode. 0-60 in less than 3 seconds in a saloon car 😄
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80kW near enough converts to 105hp.
So what is the significance of the 24kw? There's clearly more to this than meets the eye!
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24kw is the battery capacity.
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24kw is the battery capacity.
Total? How many you got? ;D
I understand power and torque, but batteries I'm on very shaky ground!
I'm struggling to see how you get 80kW from a 24kW battery, but like I say, I don't understand batteries well enough.
I know that we can't magic up power from nowhere though, so I'm missing something. ;D
Cheers anyhow for being tolerant.
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24kw is the battery capacity.
Presumably you mean 24 Kw - hours (ie will deliver 24 Kw for an hour).
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Apologies ... you are right kWh
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24kw is the battery capacity.
Presumably you mean 24 Kw - hours (ie will deliver 24 Kw for an hour).
Ah. That makes sense now.
So if we drive along merrily using all our motor can give, presumably 80kW, then a fully charged battery pack will last 18 minutes? Is that how it works?
Is there a limitation on the amount the battery can sustain over a reasonable time? What I'm getting at, is what sort of access do we have to the 80kW?
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Initial acceleration, with the right foot planted on the floor, will use the full 80kw from the engine. When you gather speed you ease off on the throttle quite a lot.
I use the car mainly on A roads for the commute, with occasional blasts along the motorway to Glasgow. As I said earlier that averages out, with my driving style, to 4.3 miles per kWh. As the battery has 21kWh of usable power a simple calculation of 21 multiplied by 4.3 gives me an average range of 90.3 miles. For a longer run, or a faster motorway trip, I would adapt the driving style to suit my journey. Sounds like a lot of hassle but it isn't in reality.
90 miles for 21kWh of electricity, at 6.2p, works out at just over £1.30 👍😄
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So if we drive along merrily using all our motor can give, presumably 80kW, then a fully charged battery pack will last 18 minutes? Is that how it works?
Or is that just the rate at which the battery can deliver power and battery charge is worked out another way?
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The battery could feed a more powerful motor. You are right, if you were to run the 80kw engine continuously at full power it would deplete the 24kWh battery quickly. That would have to be done in a test lab as I can't see how that would happen in real life.
Watch the very excellent Formula E racing for a better explanation.
So far all the questions have been about the engine and battery. I'm surprised that charging has hasn't been discussed in more depth.
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So far all the questions have been about the engine and battery. I'm surprised that charging has hasn't been discussed in more depth.
Charging at home.... A lot of cars are parked on the street. Most of the rest on a driveway. Hardly any in a garage. So how does one go on?
What type of motor are they, generally? AC or DC? Brushless? How is the speed varied? Do they need a gearbox? Is the motor cooled? How? ;D
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Got a bit side tracked reading about Galileo's wheel paradox. Which turns out to have been aristotles first anyway. Fascinating brain teaser.
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When you calculate the battery capacity you have to consider that you can't fully discharge or charge the Lithium batteries because it drastically reduces their life. Generally they are charged to something like 80% of max. capacity and discharged to 20% min, I think Nissan run 75/25 so only 50% of capacity is available for use. The other problem is that the battery capacity is limited by the weakest cell so you may have even less capacity after a period of time.
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I always charge my battery pack up to 100%. The majority of other EV owners do the same.
I'm over 24,000 miles in 20 months and so far there is no apparent reduction in capacity. With only 4 months to go until my lease finishes I doubt that I'll see any change.
The taxi firm in St Austell say that one of their cars hit 100,000 miles before it dropped 8%. That is after the car goes on a rapid charger 6/7 times a day.
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I always charge my battery pack up to 100%. The majority of other EV owners do the same.
100% of available capacity - the electronics won't let you run a 100/0 charge/discharge cycle. Limiting the charge/discharge amount increases battery life from something like 300 cycles to 2500 cycles or more. If you're careful and never discharge the battery to the limit then it can last even longer.
A racing vehicle will use full capacity because battery life is less of an issue.
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Thanks for the reply, that's useful information.
With the maximum number of battery recycled that could give me around 237,000 miles. Presumably the range would drop off towards the maximum number.
A couple of things to consider as well. The Leaf has an air cooled lump for a battery pack but others have a liquid cooled unit. On my longer trips the battery temperature had hit a maximum of 10 bars (out of 12). The last battery report from Nissan still looked great though. Storage of the car has been suggested as a potential problem area, so I don't leave it fully charged while away on holiday. Leaving the charger attached for long period also seems to discharge the 12v battery. The 12v needs the car powered and the inverse running to recharge it.
I've just been asked by one of the Nissan dealers to take the latest 30kWh Leaf for a 24 test drive. With 27kWh capacity (do I believe) that suit most of my journeys. Before I hand my own car back I have a major outlay where the windscreen wipers need to be replaced :)
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So the question now is would you buy a new diesel / petrol car instead of an electric one.
To summarise the benefits of a EV :-
Running costs (fuel and servicing) are a lot cheaper
More efficient power train
Greater reliability
No need to warm up the engine before you give it some welly
Avoid trips to the petrol stations.
Downsides:-
Time taken to recharge on longer runs
Battery life concerns
Battery capacity on standard family cars (not Tesla)
There was an interesting article on reporting Scotland a few days ago. EV users on the islands are hooking up to the wind generators. They already have the wind turbines for their homes and farms, and can now charge up their EV's as well. Smart!
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How does the power/weight ratio compare?
With respect to the power train, what does this consist of?
I believe that the overall efficiency is good, taking into account the initial power generation. Although wind turbines are a funny thing. I tend to think of them as efficient even though their mechanical efficiency probably isn't so good. Maybe I'm thinking this because the energy source is not finite in the same way as reserves of oil or gas?
Cheers.
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Although wind turbines are a funny thing. I tend to think of them as efficient even though their mechanical efficiency probably isn't so good. Maybe I'm thinking this because the energy source is not finite in the same way as reserves of oil or gas?
Cheers.
It's a bit tricky to compare. The best thermal power stations have thermal efficiency of less than 50% (the proportion of energy in the fuel which is converted to useable power). Alternators themselves are quite high efficiency in converting mechanical energy into electrical energy - up to 98% although I would expect this to be a bit lower for wind turbines as the generators are smaller than those in "conventional" power stations.
So given the wind is effectively free, wind turbines (and by the same argument wave, tide etc generators) are much more efficient.
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Although wind turbines are a funny thing. I tend to think of them as efficient even though their mechanical efficiency probably isn't so good. Maybe I'm thinking this because the energy source is not finite in the same way as reserves of oil or gas?
Cheers.
So given the wind is effectively free, wind turbines (and by the same argument wave, tide etc generators) are much more efficient.
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That's exactly what I'm thinking.
Although oil is "free" in that it's there for the taking. How long before governments tax the breeze....?
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Is it not strange that all the energy sources that are free receive huge subsidies? Wind turbines are paid far more for their small amount of electricity than power stations using coal.The proposed Swansea Barrage,using free tidal power,has stalled because the company that proposes to build it want FOUR times the going rate for the electricity it will produce.It's strange that electricity producers that use free power sources (wind,tides,whatever) receive far more money than those who pay for their fuel.
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I think you're ignoring the enormous subsidy that the Chinese will be getting for the Hinkley nuclear white elephant. It dwarfs any subsidies for proper renewable energy.
You say "small" amount of wind power - in fact, in the second quarter of 2015 at more than 25% renewables exceeded coal. http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/sep/24/renewable-energy-outstrips-coal-for-first-time-in-uk-electricity-mix
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Very interesting comments about the use of renewable power. I didn't realise that the UK was using so much.
I found an interesting YouTube video (search national grid : fully charged). Although it was filmed a few years ago, when the use of renewables was in single percentage figures, the question was asked about demand for electric vehicles snd could the grid cope. The answer is yes.
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A few years ago I had to give a presentation on wind energy. Researching the topic was fascinating. The UK is perfectly suited to wind power, but the way forward is large offshore farms, due to economies of scale, clean wind. Individual micro generation is more of a gimmick in my view, though it can help promote wind power. Modern huge turbines are now so much more efficient.
The sad thing is, that as successive governments have dithered on the subject, countries like Denmark and Germany have raced ahead. Manufacturing wind turbines could have saved thousands of engineering jobs in the ship building industry on the Clyde and in Belfast, as the manufacturing skills required are easily transferrable >:(
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GOVERNMENTS....dithered. Yip, sounds about right.
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Thanks for the reply, that's useful information.
With the maximum number of battery recycled that could give me around 237,000 miles. Presumably the range would drop off towards the maximum number.
A couple of things to consider as well. The Leaf has an air cooled lump for a battery pack but others have a liquid cooled unit. On my longer trips the battery temperature had hit a maximum of 10 bars (out of 12). The last battery report from Nissan still looked great though. Storage of the car has been suggested as a potential problem area, so I don't leave it fully charged while away on holiday. Leaving the charger attached for long period also seems to discharge the 12v battery. The 12v needs the car powered and the inverse running to recharge it.
I've just been asked by one of the Nissan dealers to take the latest 30kWh Leaf for a 24 test drive. With 27kWh capacity (do I believe) that suit most of my journeys. Before I hand my own car back I have a major outlay where the windscreen wipers need to be replaced :)
Apparently if you actually paid for the car outright you do not own the batteries, you lease them !!!
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Apparently if you actually paid for the car outright you do not own the batteries, you lease them !!!
This is the crux of it for me. The car does 14 miles a day, mostly on urban dual carriageway. It does a monthly 120 miler and has done a single 500 mile holiday. Electric should work.
The Micra sized car that won't take two dogs to the beach though costs more to buy than a 1.2 Dacia and then has an £80 per month rental on the batteries. I bet the depreciation is similar as while a Romanian Renault is hardly boy racer material, who is going to want a 5 year old car with a rental charge bigger than its value.
It's a really narrow band of advantage. You need to be doing lots of city miles.
The environmental stuff is mostly marketing. Scrapping a working MZ whose production already polluted the world to make wind turbines and heavy metal batteries doesn't add up. When the MZ is worn out, sure, don't make another, but why jump the gun?
Now the new London Taxi that will do lots of city miles and will be replacing worn out vehicles, that makes sense. Milk floats did too.
Andy
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Manufacturing wind turbines could have saved thousands of engineering jobs in the ship building industry on the Clyde and in Belfast, as the manufacturing skills required are easily transferrable >:(
Absolutely. But of course as the market rules everything it won't happen.
Anybody else remember the Lucas Shop Stewards' plan which was drawn up in the 80s when Lucas Aerospace was being closed down? There was a lot in there about using all those great skills for alternative energy amongst other things. Instead, all those super craftspeople ended up flogging double glazing and the like.
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I know this might be a little bit left field but I was glad to see the winner of the Apprentice was a plumber who has actual skills which can be used to do actual jobs like fix things with his hands. He was also interested in renewable energy. The best part, he is only 25 thus proving that the younger generation is not all made up of celebrity obsessed screen jockeys.
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According to the documentation the batteries are with the car and are not leased, do there are no extra costs. I will check that to make sure I have my facts straight.
The Leaf is about the same size as an Astra / Focus and can easily carry 5 adults and all their luggage.
Environmental issues. Like it or not petrol and diesel powered vehicles will be banned from towns and cities in my lifetime. I expect there will be exceptions to this, like emergency vehicles and maybe classic car rallies.
Electric cars only for the city! I have seen a few Dutch Leafs, fully laden on summer holidays to the UK. I also know someone who takes an annual trip from Nice to West Lothian.
I agree that depreciation is a killer on these cars and that is why I lease mine. I would seriously consider buying it at auction after it is handed back.
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I agree that depreciation is a killer on these cars and that is why I lease mine. I would seriously consider buying it at auction after it is handed back.
Interesting article on MSN the other day ( Ok I know not exactly the oracle) about the fastest depreciating cars over the last 3 years. Top (bottom?) of the list were 2 electric cars - the Peugeot Ion and the Citroen C-Zero _ which are supposedly only now worth 18.7% of their original purchase price 3 years ago ( though admittedly a large chunk of this was because the purchase price of the new example has dropped by approx 50%).
Not scientific, but certainly something to bear in mind.
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/ownership/the-top-25-fastest-depreciating-cars-of-2015/ss-BBnxLAf#image=26 (http://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/ownership/the-top-25-fastest-depreciating-cars-of-2015/ss-BBnxLAf#image=26)
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A couple of things to consider as well. The Leaf has an air cooled lump for a battery pack but others have a liquid cooled unit. On my longer trips the battery temperature had hit a maximum of 10 bars (out of 12). The last battery report from Nissan still looked great though. Storage of the car has been suggested as a potential problem area, so I don't leave it fully charged while away on holiday. Leaving the charger attached for long period also seems to discharge the 12v battery. The 12v needs the car powered and the inverse running to recharge it.
I wonder what 10bars is in real numbers, generally anything over 40C is bad for battery life. The traction battery should be OK during storage, Lithium batteries have a very low self-discharge rate so as long as they aren't powering anything it should be good for a long time. Is the 12V battery lead-acid?
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Apparently if you actually paid for the car outright you do not own the batteries, you lease them !!!
I don't think that is the case with Nissan which is why they have fixed the cost of a replacement at 5000 Euros, it helps people budget for it when it comes and helps resale values.
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The 12 volt battery is a standard lead acid one. I should imagine that a gel battery could be used as there isn't the same kind of strain that an ICE would take when cranking a cold engine.
Back to the depreciation. My car had s price of around £18k after the subsidy was taken into account. A 3 year old Leaf with 45,000 miles went for about £8.5k at auction. Mine is less than 2 years old with 24,000 miles. If the market is good it might get somewhere between £10 - £11k. To be honest I prefer to look at the total cost of ownership,taking fuel and servicing into consideration.
I hope you all gave a great Christmas and have a relaxing time with your families. Those of us who are working or on call (me), hopefully you will make time for some R&R later.
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http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20151231-electric-power-for-an-icon-of-the-atomic-age
This I like, except for the price tag.
Andy