Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: guest7 on July 06, 2009, 09:05:21 AM
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After spending the weekend at a showground full of perfectly restored old motorbikes, I'm left feeling that Bruce's Norton is actually the best classic bike you could look at:
(http://www.thumperclub.com/photos/2005/annualrally2005_rm_3.jpg)
It carries its history on its skin, but it is also identifiable as a standard model. A bike like Bruce's is ten times more rewarding to look at than any number of pristine restored Norton singles.
At the show was a nice little Indian that had originally come into the UK with the US forces in WWII. It was very shiny, but incredibly tacky and it left me wondering what had been lost during its restoration.
I've said this before, but it's worth repeating, the classic movement is ruining large nuumbers of decent classic bikes.
GC
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Is this the Aristotlian Vs Platonic argument. Is the essence of the bike in its journey to the point where you see it, or is it in the perfection of the unjournied bike?
Is there beauty in an older woman (or man) or is beauty confined to the nubile with perfect skin?
A well used bike like Bruce's can be a wonderous thing, loaded with history, fixes and miles and miles of just being. A fully restored - or over restored - bike can be a real lump of eye candy. A well engineered special can be the source of hours of perusal and contemplation.
History is not the starting point, it is the journey and the wisdom accrued - if a bike can accrue wisdom.
R
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Now that's my kind of bike, mechanically sound, cosmetically "challenged" - showing it's history in every scrape and ding, lovely!
Don't necessarily agree about the "classic movement" ruining things - it seems to me that there are moronic willy-wavers who spend an inordinate amount of money on their latest "investment", regardless of whether it's classic bikes, cars, toys (in their original boxes, never played with...), you name it - they move in on a fresh field, find out it won't make them millionaires overnight then move on, like locusts.
The real classic movement (or should that be RealClassic (http://www.realclassic.co.uk/)?)* will always exist just under the surface, hopefully gathering in the over-restored trailer queens once the investors have moved on (1950's cereal packets look like a sound investment chaps) and bringing them back into the fold of proper bikes again. We can only hope!
*Did you spot the subtle linkage?
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But, the classic bike 'world' of shows and magazines has mostly rewarded the pristine resoration over the ridden classic.
I think my problem lays with people who buy decent original classics, but then strip them down to every last piece and re-paint, re-chrome and refurbish every part. Then, to add to my black mood, they don't bloody ride the thing. If the bike was a rusty wreck to start with then fine, but if it still carries its original paintwork and chrome, leave it alone.
Lately though, I've come around to the custom way of doing things, where you can build a visually stunning bike and it's acceptable that it may not get ridden to work every day. In the custom scene's case though, these bikes are interesting because they are the owner's creation, not yet another perfect recreation of a 1963 C15 (as if we needed any more of those). I think specials and customs are interesting to look at when they feature astounding engineering and cosmetic work.
GC
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I think specials and customs are interesting to look at when they feature astounding engineering and cosmetic work.
GC
Unless made by me......
R
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Is this the Aristotlian Vs Platonic argument.
I hate to seem pedantic but I rather fancy you have have somewhat misunderstood these arguments. The essence of a thing for Plato is found in the degree to which it participates in the form of the thing itself. Thus a motorcycle is a good motorcycle to the degree to which it conforms to the form (idea) of a motorcycle. All movement/change in the universe is understood as movement towards the good, towards form. Therefore everything is in movement and is not truly real but is becoming what it most perfectly is.
For Aristotle, this tendency to hypostasise the essence of a thing in what is commonly known as the realm of the forms was unacceptable. Aristotle was concerned with the way things commonly are - he therefore saw the essence of a thing being embodied in the thing itself.
As for Bruce's Norton, I only wish my enfields were as reliable
Steffan
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This can be interpreted as good news for me - my SRX can only improve as it (re)gains a pattina of age.
It is currently one of those "strip them down to every last piece and re-paint, re-chrome and refurbish every part." But at least it was a bit of a basket case to start with, and I ride it. It's slowly gathering those dings and nicks that set it apart from many of the "show" bikes. The number of trailers and vans on the camping site at Uttoxeter had to be seen to be believed.
As has been said many times (and was heard within earshot of this weekend's "best in show" owner), there's no point having a bike if you're not going to ride it. That winning bike to my mind should never have won the top award - it's only got 1 mile on the clock so has never ever been ridden. It's not a bike, it's a bloody ornament!
Or am I just bitter because I didn't win anything? :D
I get where Graham is coming from with this - Bruce's bike is a superb example of what a real old bike should look like. This debate will no doubt go on for years, as it already has...
Trevor
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I got lost after "I hate to seem...." ;D
Isn't the idea of a motorcycle the bit that's going to vary?
We ride 'em, the custom crowd paint 'em, the classic guys play top trumps with the shiney bits. At which point this ceases to be motorcycling has to be up each person IMHO. How they can call it a bike event when they take the crank and pistons out so they can get three in a trailer is beyond me, but anyone from outside looking at one would say "that's a classic bike" rather than "nice bike shaped sculpture".
This argument seems to follow any vaguely historical subject. When I bought the sun compass I was offered a second one at a slightly reduced price. The seller thought I'd be able to trade if for other stuff "for my collection". When I said I intended to learn how to use the thing the guy thought I was weird, couldn't get over the idea that I wasn't playing top trumps/football card swapsies for adults with old military kit. (It may not have helped when I then asked him what a Bren gun he had on display would cost :o).
Each to their own eh.
Andy
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Hmm, general agreement, less the Aristotle / Plato thing at least ;) (is it just me who had a flashback to reading Zen and the art while digesting Steffan's reply? ;D well put though mate, even I understood it :D )
I have to admit I walked past the Goldstar owners tent and it looked really, really boring*, literally a long row of Identikit Goldstars in better than new condition, obviously trailered there and obviously not one of them used for anything more than a quick blat in perfect conditions (and most of them probably not even that :-\ )
They might as well save some cash and built 1/32 scale models, would be a lot easier to transport as well....
The diesel lowrider grabbed me because it is unlike anything I'd seen before, was beautifully put together and reflected ingenuity and imagination on the part of the designer/builder. As an art object it stands up to scrutiny, or you could ride it.
I think the other comments mostly cover my thoughts on working bikes ;)
* a sad reflection when that comment is made by a motorcycle enthusiast who normally likes looking at them and loves to watch them race/display!
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Is this the Aristotlian Vs Platonic argument.
I hate to seem pedantic but I rather fancy you have have somewhat misunderstood these arguments. The essence of a thing for Plato is found in the degree to which it participates in the form of the thing itself. Thus a motorcycle is a good motorcycle to the degree to which it conforms to the form (idea) of a motorcycle. All movement/change in the universe is understood as movement towards the good, towards form. Therefore everything is in movement and is not truly real but is becoming what it most perfectly is.
For Aristotle, this tendency to hypostasise the essence of a thing in what is commonly known as the realm of the forms was unacceptable. Aristotle was concerned with the way things commonly are - he therefore saw the essence of a thing being embodied in the thing itself.
As for Bruce's Norton, I only wish my enfields were as reliable
Steffan
Misunderstood - probably not, misused probably ;D
Plato - movement towards good form, the essence of horse is in the whole and its engagement in the system of which it is part. Bruce's bike has tended towards a good bike because that is what it has become, if it were a bad bike it owuld be on the scrap heap by now. The journey is more than the destination. A nut and bolt restoration follows more Aristotle, and more to the point Cartesian thought that the goodness of the whole is in the goodness of the parts. A good classic is made from polishing up all the good parts and adding them together, a reductionist, post-cartesian approach typified by 'Western thinking'. If we consider the systemic idea that the whole is greater than the parts and that the outcome is only that for which the system was perfectly suited, then what makes a great bike is not a reductionist approach, but something that could be opposite, and may be from a different continiuum - typified by 'Eastern thought'. The spit and polish but never ridden 'classic' wins because it supports the static quality of the legitimate system, whereas the evolved classic such as Bruce's could be a representation of the dynamic quality, shadow system and thus challenges the icons of the former.
I was questioning as to whether we could see the two different approaches as dynamic journey Vs static destination.
R
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I am abiding by the anti-intellectual wishes of my friends and saying nothing further ::)
;D
Steffan
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I am abiding by the anti-intellectual wishes of my friends and saying nothing further ::)
;D
Steffan
Shame, I was enjoying that(!) ;D
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I am abiding by the anti-intellectual wishes of my friends and saying nothing further ::)
;D
Steffan
Shame, I was enjoying that(!) ;D
And I was getting lost...I do like the real bike though Bruce.
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Totally lost in the brainy stuff but I think I get the jist of the thread.
Never went to Uttoxeter to drewl over the classics as I have very little interest in them. Those that like them can carry on without me and I hope they have a happy time of it too. I'm sure trawling through the tinterweb for an original rear reflector for a 1964 BSA A10 can fill an otherwise meaningless existance with a sense of purpose and joy, and that's great. One less miserable person can only be a good thing in my book. The problem is of course that as a result of all this prices of spares to those who actually wish to use and ride their bikes go through the roof!
For me though, if the engine doesn't work and the bike cannot be ridden then it is mearly a statue, an impression of a bike no better than if it were made of plaster and paint. A motorcycle is a machine to perform a function first and foremost. If it should be beautiful to look at and listen too or be quick and handle well so all who use it will praise it, then that is a bonus. There are many motorbikes out there that are butt ugly and ride like the frames made of paper, but they are still motorbikes.
If the classic crowd want to polish chrome and paint, carry on, but don't call it a motorcycle if it doesn't work. (IMHO).
While I also love Bruces old Norton, I love Furry Johns Bikes too. Lovely bikes, beautifully built and well maintained classics that are used.
Oh and yes, custom bikes are a real joy to me too. Best bit of Uttoxeter for me was the 'Streetfighter' club stand. There was some outstanding engineering on display there.
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Aristotle.............wasn't he the one who was a "bugger for the bottle" ?
I find my own approach drawn heavily from the Cartesian.
"Immanuel Kant was a real pissant
Who was very rarely stable.
Heidegger, Heidegger was a boozy beggar
Who could think you under the table.
David Hume could out-consume
Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel, [some versions have 'Schopenhauer and Hegel']
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
Who was just as schloshed as Schlegel.
There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist.
Socrates, himself, was permanently pissed.
John Stuart Mill, of his own free will,
On half a pint of shandy was particularly ill.
Plato, they say, could stick it away--
Half a crate of whisky every day.
Aristotle, Aristotle was a bugger for the bottle.
Hobbes was fond of his dram,
And René Descartes was a drunken fart.
'I drink, therefore I am.'
Yes, Socrates, himself, is particularly missed,
A lovely little thinker,
But a bugger when he's pissed."
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There's nothing Nietzsche couldn't teach ya
'Bout the raising of the wrist.
I have loved that couple of lines since I first heard the song...
Steffan - why not? Who are these anti intellectual friends? And what is intellectual about a blather?
R
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So where does that leave the bikes in museums? They have been used, loved, crashed, raced etc, and then restored and now sit there doing nothing other than being looked at. Are they still motorcycles, or are they ornaments? I go for motorcycles, even though they are no longer ridden.
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I think Team Obsolete had the answer (and money) for that one - their view was that a MC was made to have its neck wrung (well racing bikes anyway) so they would do that until they could repair it no more and then they would do an empty case restoration and put it in a museum - along with all the bits and bobs they had for it, info on repairs made etc.
It was - as Shaw had it in Man and Superman - used up
Is it still a motorcycle - well I guess you could say no if it has no motor, but yes it is a motorcycle, in the same way as the beam engine in the science museum is a beam engine - it is just not a operational one any more, and does not claim to be.
I have less issue with bikes in museums although I do think if they have a particular history they should be left that way - Slippery Sam should have any scruteneering stickers left on, a long distance bike should be left covered in filth and bodges etc.
Maybe at shows they should have ridden there and trailered there classes?
R
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Maybe at shows they should have ridden there and trailered there classes?
At some shows, they do. The Donington show in May and the VJMC Lancashire show (Nabs Head) both had prizes specifically for bikes ridden to the show.
Trevor
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So where does that leave the bikes in museums? They have been used, loved, crashed, raced etc, and then restored and now sit there doing nothing other than being looked at. Are they still motorcycles, or are they ornaments? I go for motorcycles, even though they are no longer ridden.
For me they're just display models, images of what they once were. Great mind you, but no longer a motorcycle. This is because they can no longer perform the primary function of a motorcycle, movement.
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That is very Platonic of you Pat, well sort of there is a bit of Aristotelian thinking creeping on the margins - best to watch that sort of thing.
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Methinks you are extracting something there Steffan, and probably not from Pat ;D
Not very Sun Tzu?
R
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That is very Platonic of you Pat, well sort of there is a bit of Aristotelian thinking creeping on the margins - best to watch that sort of thing.
Does that make me cleverer like wot you is?? :-\
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All this talk of pampered motorcycles reminds me of something Simon and I saw at a recent rally. One guy spent the afternoon polishing the engine of his Harley, using Autosol, a toothbrush and some rags that he had brought along. He had actually riden there, but once at the site he obvioulsy felt that the presence of road dirt was undesirable. He spent nearly two hours doing this ::)
GC
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I see nothing wrong with the polishing of a motorcycle that had been ridden to the show. I like cleaning and polishing my bike, just don't have time to do it anymore. It seems to be a sad fact of my life that I don't have much time to tinker with them, clean & polish them, and even ride them anymore. Damn this wretched necessity of work to pay for a small roof over the family's heads.
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I have less issue with bikes in museums although I do think if they have a particular history they should be left that way - Slippery Sam should have any scruteneering stickers left on, a long distance bike should be left covered in filth and bodges etc.
I understood that Slippery Sam was very severly damaged in the fire at the National Motorcycle Museum ( ie-burnt to a crisp with engine cases etc melted) - it has now been completely rebuilt using everything that could be salvaged. Question is, is it still the real Slippery Sam or just a very good replica using some original parts? :-\
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Ah, Grandfather's Axe - for the hard of thinking:
"Grandfather has had the same axe for forty years, it's had 6 replacement handles and 3 new heads, but it's still the same axe"
Things evolve as they are used, damaged, repaired, whatever - as long as there is a common traceable history linking the item back to the factory-produced original then it is the same item, in my view. How much of our bikes has been replaced since they left the production line? 5%? 10%? More?
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I'd go with the DVLA approach. If Slippery Sam still has the same frame and/or engine and/or other major parts it's the same bike. The fact that the NMM owned it before the fire and afterwards adds to that feeling IMHO. Now, I'm sure some enterprising soul has thought that Brough Superiors can be multiplied by fitting a new frame to the engine and a new engine to the frame, but you'd only have one set of paperwork, so one bike is heavily restored but genuine, the other a replica (clone) with an original engine. Like any antique providence carries a lot of weight. I'm sure no one here would suggest that Slippery Sam would be Slippery Sam with a Titanium frame, Honda Engine and an entry into next years WSB.
I'd let museums off a little more on the ornament thing if they've set up their bikes as genuine stake in the ground reference material with paperwork back up. If Slippery Sam's mechanic says it had a Lockeed brake in the 19?? season and Champion sparkplugs and that's what the museum piece has, the museum info should simply say this bike was restored to match the condition in that year. They should be able to back up that info with resaerch papers that would allow anyone to see the year before it might have had OE fit Dunlop brakes. You'd hope with so much original bike lost NMM would do a restoration aimed at a specific season given any race bike soon becomes a V3.0tuesdayafternoon. The display up to the fire will have been a snapshot of the last day it raced less bits lost the day after while it was views as "old" rather than "antique".
What we don't need IMHO is 500 BSA Goldflashes in the condition the owner might have put them in if he'd won the pools in 1969. There are enough bikes out there for maybe one of each model year to be saved as a reference and the rest used to keep them where they belong, on the road.
I can't really see the point of bike competitions full stop. I've been involved with photographic competitions and dog shows and it simply comes down to what mood the judge got up in and what he spots in the first few seconds. That's if you are lucky of course. If you are unlucky he'll spot some bike/dog/photo that got third last week and not dare put it below 5th because last week's judge has been at it for a million years.
Andy
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All this talk of pampered motorcycles reminds me of something Simon and I saw at a recent rally. One guy spent the afternoon polishing the engine of his Harley, using Autosol, a toothbrush and some rags that he had brought along. He had actually riden there, but once at the site he obvioulsy felt that the presence of road dirt was undesirable. He spent nearly two hours doing this ::)
I wouldn't make so bold as to criticise someone who clearly takes a pride in his bike ,GC .I'm sure if your bike was in a similar state,then you would look after it as well as the next man . Let's also not forget that regular cleaning is an essential part of the maintenance of the machine. More often than not it is when cleaning the machine we find faults .
Rob .
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Just to clarify, this wasn't at a show, it was a camping field meet. I'm not sure he was even there for the diesel rally going on around him. He turned up, pitched his tent, mooched around and then spent the afternoon polishing (not merely cleaning) his bike. It wasn't in a show or there to be judged in any way.
I can see this being a sensible thing back in the garage one evening after the ride, but why ride to a nice sunny spot and do it? I mean, think of how many drinking/talking bollocks hours he wasted :D
GC
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What we don't need IMHO is 500 BSA Goldflashes in the condition the owner might have put them in if he'd won the pools in 1969. There are enough bikes out there for maybe one of each model year to be saved as a reference and the rest used to keep them where they belong, on the road.
Amen to that!
My thoughts exactly. I'd add that I understand the attraction of a faithful and precise restoration, but I feel that budding restorers should set themselves a higher standard when choosing a bike to restore. As has been said already, only restore if the vehicle is beyond use as it stands.
Just to counter an argument before it's made, I don't think new wheels or saddle covers, etc. look bad when mixed with original paint work and tarnished chrome.
The IRA blew up Bishopsgate and in the process nearly destroyed a beautiful little medieval church. When they rebuilt it they decided that the new stonework should be made 'as new' and not aged to match the remaining stone. The juxtapostion of the two types, one sharp-edged and clean, the other weathered and blackened, tells more of a story. In fact, if you know what you're looking at, it's quite moving.
GC
GC
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I wouldn't make so bold as to criticise someone who clearly takes a pride in his bike ,GC .
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Now come on Rob, fairs fair, I am sure that GC replaces the gaffer tape on a regular basis...
Steffan
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He was riding a Harley - he had no friends to talk bollocks to ;D So polishing it is then.
R
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The IRA blew up Bishopsgate and in the process nearly destroyed a beautiful little medieval church. When they rebuilt it they decided that the new stonework should be made 'as new' and not aged to match the remaining stone. The juxtapostion of the two types, one sharp-edged and clean, the other weathered and blackened, tells more of a story. In fact, if you know what you're looking at, it's quite moving.
GC
Yup - in Berlin, the Western area has been 'restored' and looks nice but does not have history embedded, in many places in the Eastern areas there was not the money or compulsion to restore so there is still evidence of bullet pocks across bridge balustrades from where the Russian troops fought their way through. Some of the most telling is in the roof area of the Bundestag where the new glass and metal sit alongside the pocks and scratched in graffitti from the men who fought and died across the rooftops.
Very sobering.
Very real.
No rewriting of the story between event and observer, just time.
The 16th and 17th C graffiti in Winchester Cathedral has similar closeness but not the same emotion.
R
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That is very Platonic of you Pat, well sort of there is a bit of Aristotelian thinking creeping on the margins - best to watch that sort of thing.
Does that make me cleverer like wot you is?? :-\
Well would that depend on whether 'clever' is absolute or contingent? :P
R
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Too much alcohol will make your cleverness contingent
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Too much contingency can make you alcohol clever - and your best friend.
DAMIKIJD
R