Author Topic: Rejetting for Cone filter  (Read 745 times)

guest1406

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Rejetting for Cone filter
« on: February 18, 2016, 05:19:11 PM »
Hi all

Been tinkering with the GN250, getting it ready for the road. I've put a Ramair filter and it ran rich. I was surprised as I bought a jet kit off the internet and it asked me what bike, air filter and exhaust. From this they sent me a 142.5, 145 and a 147.5 jet (standard being 130). If I've increased the air flow surely i would need a smaller jet, so I'm just wondering if i'm missing something? I'm new to re-jetting carbs.

So I got some smaller jets and a 125 jet worked okish (may need smaller). Engine would idle lovely then cut out after 14 seconds. Haven't yet test drove it

I then bought a K&N cone filter after a friend recently had his bike dynoed and said the dyno guys swear only by K&N, and i've heard ramair filters are crap. It was a little harder to start and wold idle for as long, I then checked the plug and was sooty so that needs to be changed now?

My concern is how low is it ok for a jet to go if standard is 130?

Any experience and info with rejeting and cone filters would be appreciated. I'm itching to get on the road as the weather is taking a slow turn for the better, and I haven't been on the road for over two years!! Depressing stuff .. .

Cheers guys,

Mackenzie

SteveC#222

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2016, 09:36:46 PM »
The correct air/fuel ratio for a petrol engine is about 14/1 - 14 parts air to 1 part fuel. You have increased the air flow with the new , less restictive filter so you need to increase the fuel flow by increasing the main jet size to maintain the correct a/f ratio. Try the middle jet first take it for a blast - preferably up an incline, and at the top cut the engine with the kill switch then take the plug out and see what colour it is whiteish too lean - bigger jet needed, black too rich, smaller jet needed, greyish about right. That said if you've fitted the new filter to a CV carb it might not be that simple.
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Propellor

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2016, 06:48:52 AM »
What Steve said.  :)

The other thing to bear in mind is that, in most carbs, the main jet is separate from the needle jet/emulsion tube. It's screwed in right at the bottom. So the main jet usually only has a direct effect on the a/f ratio at wot (wide open throttle). Maybe just a bit below this, but not much. The reason is that, at throttle position below wot the needle taper and how it sits in the needle jet have control. In other words, until the needle is lifted to wot it's taper provides a smaller surface area for the fuel to get through.

True, a small bike ridden with...er...... Enthusiasm, will spend a lot of time at wot! But for operation at intermediate throttle positions the needle taper and/or height relative to the slide matter. On older slide carb designs the slide had a cutaway, which had control over the a/f ratio at very low throttle positions, but I'm not sure that cv carbs have the facility for this?

As Steve hinted, there is more to a cv carb than perhaps meets the eye. Removing the airbox will almost definitely alter the pressure felt on the lower side of the diaphragm. Whether and to what degree this screws up the a/f ratio seems to vary widely in different types of bike.

Checking the main jet is, I guess, going to be the easiest to eliminate from your worry list, at least on a little bike. Find a situation where you can safely give it full throttle and kill the ignition whilst at that throttle position, as Steve said. If you have your collar felt, remember that Steve advised you to do this.  ;D ;D ;D
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SteveC#222

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2016, 08:04:00 AM »
What Steve said.  :)

Checking the main jet is, I guess, going to be the easiest to eliminate from your worry list, at least on a little bike. Find a situation where you can safely give it full throttle and kill the ignition whilst at that throttle position, as Steve said. If you have your collar felt, remember that Steve advised you to do this.  ;D ;D ;D

OI! you trying to get me in trouble!! ;)

You don't have to go flat out - as long as the engine is under load - ie WOT - it doesn't have to be in top gear.  As long as you can give it enough revs to get the main jet wide open then it will work in third or forth for testing purposes.
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional!

Propellor

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2016, 09:51:44 AM »
What Steve said.  :)

Checking the main jet is, I guess, going to be the easiest to eliminate from your worry list, at least on a little bike. Find a situation where you can safely give it full throttle and kill the ignition whilst at that throttle position, as Steve said. If you have your collar felt, remember that Steve advised you to do this.  ;D ;D ;D

OI! you trying to get me in trouble!! ;)

You don't have to go flat out - as long as the engine is under load - ie WOT - it doesn't have to be in top gear.  As long as you can give it enough revs to get the main jet wide open then it will work in third or forth for testing purposes.

As if I would!  ;D ;)

Reading into what mackenzie said, I don't think the bike has been run flat out on wot. I can't see a smaller than stock main jet being a good thing. You'll only know what affect the main jet has by running flat out. It's safer to start rich and work towards the correct ratio rather than the other way around.

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guest1406

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2016, 10:57:03 AM »
Thanks for all the replies

I just need a whole day to fettle about rather then half hour here and there.

Everywhere iv read and everyone ive asked said that I need to go up jet sizes, but when I let it idle with bigger jets the plug was black. When I went down to a 125 (130 standard) the plug was brow and not sooty.

I thought you would need to jet it to idle? Or do i jet it to a certain amount of revs?

Cheers,

Mackenzie

Propellor

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2016, 11:10:35 AM »
Thanks for all the replies

I just need a whole day to fettle about rather then half hour here and there.

Everywhere iv read and everyone ive asked said that I need to go up jet sizes, but when I let it idle with bigger jets the plug was black. When I went down to a 125 (130 standard) the plug was brow and not sooty.

I thought you would need to jet it to idle? Or do i jet it to a certain amount of revs?

Cheers,

Mackenzie

The main jet won't have any effect at all on idle richness. None.

There are various stages in the way a carburettor attains a gradient to the fuelling. The amount of air (mass flow) the engine needs at tick over is next to nowt compared to what it needs flat out delivering max power.  Between these two extremes and all points in between, the carb needs to deliver differing mass flow rates of air and the 14/1 ratio of petrol.

Thinking of it that way makes you realise what a fantastic device it is!
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CrazyFrog

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2016, 12:23:31 PM »
Thinking of it that way makes you realise what a fantastic device it is!

+1 Andy.

There's lots of info on the interweb about tuning carbs, but here is one specific to Mik's and Keihins :-

http://www.nightrider.com/bt30/carb_jet_ranges.htm

The chart illustrating the effect of each 'component' at various throttle opening is particularly informative.
2023 Honda CMC500

Propellor

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2016, 12:32:15 PM »
Now I've said mass flow I'm not sure they can account for this? Maybe volumetric flow is correct? Mmmm.

They are upset by different altitudes so they can't accommodate mass flow.
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timbo

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2016, 01:22:23 PM »
Interesting thread, thanks guys  :)
Namaste

Propellor

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2016, 04:54:09 PM »
Now I've said mass flow I'm not sure they can account for this? Maybe volumetric flow is correct? Mmmm.  :)

They are upset by different altitudes so they can't accommodate mass flow.

Maybe it's fair to say that it is desirable to control and meter mass flow of air, and this is what the carb does, BUT it can only do it within a narrow range of altitudes and temperatures, assuming the jetting is correct in the first place. Is that a fair and, for that matter, correct appraisal?

Sorry to divert slightly, Mackenzie. Hopefully you'll forgive me!
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guest1406

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2016, 05:09:00 PM »
Very interesting guys, you know your ins and outs! Glad I can pick your brains.  I've taken today to spend some time with it.

I have 5 fresh spark plugs (bought 3, lost them, bought two, found them all). I used one plug to warm the engine up, when checked was sooty. I then replaced it and took it round the block and it was very boggy and kept cutting out. Once cut out it won't start up star tight away. Ignition has to be turned off and left for 10 seconds or so. I checked the plug and it was quite white so it was lean. So I replaced the plug and put in a 135 main jet (125 was in) and it was as boggy and didn't cut out as much. the plug was brownish but not sooty

I can some times be hard to start and sometime kicks, spurts, backfire a bit from the carb. Also noticed a little exhaust leak before the silencer. Although will sort the leak out asap would it have an effect on running or not as its further down the cycle?

The sigma jet kit I got off eBay says the first thing to do is to alter the needle height. I haven't yet done that. Is it that worth a look? I asked someone off the web with the same bike in similar conditions and pod filter and they run a 140 main jet. The kit also came with a bigger pilot jet too. What effects will that have?

Cheers guys,

Mackenzie

SteveC#222

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2016, 06:41:36 PM »
Roughly speaking the pilot jet ( and idle system) control 0% - 25% of throttle movement, the needle controls 20%- 80% and the main jet 60% -100%. As you can see these overlap to some degree. If you have a brown plug at wide open throttle the main is probably not far off. You can try altering the needle height - one notch at a time - going DOWN a notch will lift the needle and let more fuel in richening the mixture, a notch UP will lower the needle and lean off the mixture. See if it makes a difference. Likewise you can try the bigger pilot jet - you may need to adjust the pilot screw too. It's really a case of try it and see but try to stay on the rich side to start with rather than too lean.
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional!

Propellor

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Re: Rejetting for Cone filter
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2016, 08:35:56 PM »
Glad you seem to be getting somewhere. That lifts the spirits and gives motivation.

I think the needle height will defo make a noticeable difference. Whether it is better or worse...... One way to find out!

I'd try to do plug chops at the various throttle positions, with the engine loaded at these positions if poss. Just riding then checking the plug will tell you something but the data is vague.

Good luck anyway.  :)

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