Author Topic: the global warming swindle  (Read 2230 times)

hondamichael

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #15 on: March 09, 2007, 06:08:12 PM »
ok ok ...the only way to stop global warming is to stop totally using fosil fuels , means stop producing elecricity with them, stop powering vehicles with them, stop heating with them ...
 there are alternatives for the electric problem and for the heating problem  look at island they use  water instead , they pump cold water in the earth and get hot water back enough to produce electricity and  to heat theire homes
 or as here in uk strong  winds a going over this island all the time, build big wind farms the technicis is already there ...not used
also around the uk are the highest tides in the world , the techique to use this power is already there ....not used
( ok there are a couple wind mills producing a bit  electricity ....)
 and another thing  old houses are nice to look at but even with double glased windows ,
they are not realy enenrgy efficient ,but to be fair neither are the new ones , they could build the houses a lot more efficient ,they have build prototype houses that use in one year less energy then a normal house in a month and some even less then that
 ..we have to change our lifestyle .. not me of course , with this attitute we won`t find a sollution



hondamichael

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2007, 06:20:24 PM »
btw the last time humans have been environmently friendly  was in the stone age .....since then .....

bullet350

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2007, 07:18:34 PM »
certainly gets the grey matter working (well sort of).

i'm fairly certain that if global warming wasn't the bandwagon currently transporting most governments towards power and money, then something else would be invented to fulfil this role.

i agree with not wasting energy, but i feel the powers that be are using this doomsday scinario to extract masses of money from us. i think we should reduce the output of pollutants out of respect for our environment, and generally treat the planet with a lot more respect than we currently do.

350bullet.

guest27

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2007, 09:04:43 PM »
Funny - Bullet350 - sitting here on my fence I see a load of 'powers that be' desperatly trying NOT to increase prices etc for fear of being unelectable. There is a fair amount in the UK of pandering to the big companies - but this happens in all areas of business not just power / environment.  EG in Denmark and Germany they have just changed the tax breaks to make bigger wind turbines more economic - as a result there are a load of old (read less than three years) wind turbines coming onto the market.  Apart from the unenvironemntal cost of making new ones, these are finding their way in the UK market, because our govmnt will not support wind generation to the same extent - despite having the most useful winds in Europe.  Go back a few years and the same story was true of factory machinery - many UK upgrades were with second hand kit from Germany.  Now look at micro generation - big business does not want it in the UK, despite it costing more per KWh than bulk production.  As a result we have a system of selling into the grid from micro at about 2p per unit and buying in at about 8p per unit.  Denmark and Nehterlands have near nett metering - sell out at 7p buy in at 8p and I understand - but am not sure - that Germany have gone to a system where a micro generator sells into the grid at 8p and buys back at 7p. If we were to go 'greener' on our generationit would cost more.  Joe Public does not like the idea of that so we are not.  IN more mature societies - ie Netherlands - people are willing to pay for the future of their children and their children's children.

The environement can stand quite a lot of fossil fuel burning.  Within limits the excess CO2 is consumed by chemical weathering and by additional plant growth - the system is both complex and adaptive and can respond to a certain amount of change.  This increased CO2 can be quite high if, and big if, it grows slowly.  CO2 increase has not been slow and it has not been from a reversable source.  It is also no t'background' blips - like volcanic activity, which can cause temporary increases in CO2 and CO2 equivelents, but the system has evolved with these pertubations and in the main lives with them, and they are not persistent purtebations.  However we have over stepped that mark, by a long way.

Schumacher (MF not Michael or Ralf) identified some time ago that seeing things like oil as natural resource rather than natural capital gave us a mindset that made us spend them as quick as we can - because more will be coming.  If we were to see tham as natural capital, we would be in a position to spend them wisely.  Think what a difference it would have been if we in the UK saw North Sea Oil as a capital asset rather than a reseaorce asset.  Rather than all those tax cuts we had in the 80's to spend on imported goods, we could have invested in infrastructure and the future.  Rather than ignoring the railways for 20 years, we would now be sat on the best railway system in the world.  We would have some of the best roads in the world, some of the best research industries in the world etc. But UK governments were too scared to charge the people who live here what it would cost, so like they do now, they take the easy options and seek to cut tax or limit public expenditure.

Funny how the view from two adjacent fences can be so different?

R

squirrelciv

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #19 on: March 10, 2007, 09:16:48 AM »
WOW!!!

Joining this one a little late, and catching up with all the posts has hurt my head (thanks for the headache Rog)
Now for my two pence worth.

Please be wary of the industrial propaganda machine. Global warming/polution is a reality!  look around people, there are machines burning fuel all around. Factories using huge amounts of power everyday, manufacturing millions and millions of tonnes of consumer goods that are shipped all over the world. Come on, smell the coffee! It has GOT to be having an effect! This stuff just didn't happen 300 years ago.
Now we hear (it would appear,I didn't see the prog in question) that it's all part of a natural cycle. Could we be being told this by those industrialists who wish to protect their revenue creating industries???
Funny, how the global ecconomy is still growing (25% growth last year) and the only brakes on the horizon might be a reduction in energy use required to slow down global warming.
To turn your backs on the problem merely because it doesn't effect us NOW is both short sighted and stupid.
Live long, live well, live happy

guest27

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #20 on: March 10, 2007, 09:49:35 AM »
Hi All Again
Just picking up on the idea that the problem is population not energy / resource use in the Developed World.  A vast majority of the population of the world do not live in the developed world - will look it up later - yet most of the polluting (even with the growth of China and India) comes from the very small minority population now seeking to protect their vested interests.  I find it interesting that we are willing to sell India and China all our old technology - the really really inefficiant stuff.  In reality we should be selling to them the really new stuff at a loss - so whilst they undercut our economy - as they will - at least they will be doing it in a cleaner manner...

R

bikeseamus

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #21 on: March 10, 2007, 08:59:35 PM »

  Let's just pretend that 26645547836465438747546474876 vehicles burning dirty assed coal and oil,24/7, for about 200 plus years makes no difference at all in the relatively razor thin layer above the Earth's surface we call the biosphere, and it is all caused by something like a phase of the moon or a natural cycle of warming or cooling or something else equally rediculous and scientifically unsubstantiated.

   Let's pretend all that shit, just for the sake of discussion.   

                    OK Then, given 6 billion people and counting, and admitting that 36547745474756548565856 vehicles burning coal and oil 24/7 ADDS to the problem, as no sane person with a single functioning brain cell would disagree...........

   What's to be done?
                                                Wellnow...............

  There are billions being made polluting and heating the place up and paying prostitute "scientists" to deny the problem.

   No question about that.   

  Until the major power players can figure out a way to make an equal amount to solve and profit from the problem, look for things to continue as they have............. and we're done.

   No easy answer to complicated problems.

 Mother Nature, as always, will be the boss of such things as lemmings and Humans.

  War, famine, disease, and running over cliffs in large numbers.

      Nobody gets out alive, but what a way to go.

  Many bumps ahead, but I find the bumps easier to dodge on a motorcycle.

   Over and out.                   Jim

xbruby

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2007, 08:32:47 AM »
Dont know if any of you saw the article (have copy in PDF format if anyone is interested) but some of the Scientists involved in te C4 documentary have recieved threats of various kinds from withdrawl of funding to death, if they dont stop peddling the anti-man made global warming theory.

Now call me cynical (no email addressed to cynical please!) but if the whols argument is as water tight as the government wouold have us belive then why the threats?

I'm gonna ride both my bikes and drive my world crushing 4x4 flat out every wheree I go and bollocks to global warming!

Andy

guest27

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2007, 12:18:29 PM »
On the point of the scientists on the prog - apparently many of them are seeking to get their contributions removed from any repeats etc because they have been totally missrepresented.  The Head of Science for C4 was on R4 this morning (Today) and was unable to answer any of the questions asked, particulaly why when global average temperatures are rising faster than any time for thousands of years, they say in the programe they are not etc.

Seems to me that there was as much about making a programme that causes controversy as there was in trying to seek the truth.

Can listen to it on BBC web site http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/

R


MrFluffy

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #24 on: March 19, 2007, 11:32:52 AM »
Now, Im probally a bit "greener" than the average person, our house is heated (when sun permits) by solar panels. All year round our water is heated by the same curved panel solar array. We're talking about installing another 8m2 array of pv panels so we can feed back into the grid to try and offset our reliance on grid electricity in winter by generating it at peak time in the summer.  House runs on a well system that is pump pressurised to give us mains pressure from it (and pump is pv powered). We recycle our rubbish where we can, however this is where it comes off the rails a bit. Besides my bikes I have a old range rover v8 classic (200 quid gov'nor, and its the only thing I own that can get the trailers out my field when its rained), which of course makes me public enemy number one to every wannabe enviromentalist, Ive had no end of idiots telling me I should get rid of my planet destroying beast and replace it with a modern eco friendly car (eg a prius) even though it runs on lpg which has much lower emissions. There was a study called "from the cradle to the grave" by a very respected german university where it was found that to make a new car produces more enviromental destruction and pollution than the car will emit during its lifetime. So instead of "getting rid of that old dirty car", what we should be doing is encouraging people to keep older cars going, but that wont suit car makers profits will it?. I shared a house with a book thumping greenie who lambasted me at any point he possibly could about the rangie, until I made him sit down and do the sums. Ive had it key'd parking it in town, and one idiot graffitied it with "save the planet, destroy this car".  Ive since found out that the prius is a huge environmental disaster for the amount of waste made in its fabrication vs usefull lifespan. Seems to me its just a bandwagon to go sit on to be seen to be doing something..
Another bugbear for me is the whole "green" industry is a *HUGE* rip off. I paid 500 quid a go for my curved tube solar collectors, and Ive since discovered theres about 50 quid of materials tops in there as the awkward bits (the collector insulators) are bought in from a glass factory for buttons. Even counting for the time to assemble it, its still one hell of a mark up, multiply this by 8 (we have 8 panels) and Ive been well and truly taken in the name of helping the planet.
I was in b&q looking at the wind gennys they have there, and from the specs and average wind speeds we did some calculations on how long it would take for my neighbour to recover the cost (1500 quid installed) of it. 20 years we came up with. Thats 20 years that shoddy cheap nasty plastic fan has to stay up a pole without maintenance , without the brake failing during extreme winds etc (you can pay a grand for a yaesu antenna rotator and not have this expectation of reliability). Its not going to happen. Now why is that genny 1500 quid? its a alternator, with a inverter and some control electronics with a big plastic fan. If you had the same part on a car it'd probally cost 20 quid to make. Someones making a killing arent they? Why is a geothermal heating system 20k + the price of the digger? Instead of encouraging people to buy these systems by giving them installer grants (thus stopping the benefit for people who would much rather prefer to do the job properly themselves) perhaps someone should be looking at making these systems/components on a not for profit basis?
/soapbox.

Steve H

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2007, 11:47:25 AM »
There was a study called "from the cradle to the grave" by a very respected german university where it was found that to make a new car produces more enviromental destruction and pollution than the car will emit during its lifetime. So instead of "getting rid of that old dirty car", what we should be doing is encouraging people to keep older cars going, but that wont suit car makers profits will it?.
I'd heard about this study but couldnt find any information on it. Makes sense though when you think about it, expecially with the Prius and the need to replace batteries etc. Do you have any links ?

Andy M

  • Posts: 1709
Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2007, 12:16:05 PM »
Haven't seen this study, but it makes sense.

I read an interesting bit comparing energy use with smoking though. The first reaction of the manufacturers is to claim smoking is good for you, then that it's not as bad as people say. Plan B is to launch "improved" products (low tar etc.) that are probably worse in the overall picture. They make huge efforts to sell the old products in emerging markets that don't care what they have. Finally, once the writing is totally on the wall, they switch their investments to a totally different area and sit back and wait for their original market to die.

How this works with a whole planet's economy could be pretty bad!

Andy

guest27

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2007, 12:50:37 PM »
Speaking as a tub thumping greenie who does not acheive as much as he should nor as much as he woould like, may I agree with every word Mr Fluffy wrote.  IF he used his V8 as daily transport taking his kids 350 metres to school, then he may be better off liking at an old mini, but he does not - he seems to be using it for the job it was built for, and in the absence of being able to maintain a couple of pairs of Shire's it is probably a good use of resources.

Cost of green equipment - yup, there are start up costs, development costs etc, but in the main businesses are into ripping off the customer, because they can.  Product cycles generally go like tbis mind, early adopters pay the price for their beliefs, need fopr the latest iPod etc.

Used to be a HM Govmt booklet on converting car electrics to manage your homebrew wind genny, ditto for homebrew methane from a two barrel converter, but these were for some reason taken out of print and withdrawn from all liburarys etc

Did find a company in South Wales selling off old German and Danish commercial wind gennys at a good price - but cannot find them any more.  Starting to get fed up with Google and the like, used to turn up useful articals, sites etc on how to do something, now just 100,000,000 pages of eBay sales and trade diretories with no bearing on what I want.

R

MrFluffy

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #28 on: March 19, 2007, 02:08:10 PM »
The study is :-
Umwelt Prognose Institut, 1998, 'Oeko-bilanz eines Autolebens', (Eco-analysis of the life cycle of a car), UPI, Heidelberg.
Id strongly encourage you to find and read the original rather than the widely quoted John Whitelegg summary (he is head of the geography dept at lancaster uni and works for Eco-Logica, neither of which qualifies him to be the authoritive interpreter of the original) as his "summary" reads very different than the original report for some reason and is quoted as being the study by people with hidden agendas. I did have a link to the original, Ill try and find it again, but its slowly getting lost in the noise on the subject, Ive just been hunting for it for a bit and cant find it yet.

R:
Thats the thing, the truly useful information is getting lost in all the hype. Go to the likes of the alliance against urban 4x4 or any of the other sites misquoting that study. Its hardly balanced scientific stuff and just discredits them in the eyes of people wanting firm scientific study or practical action instead of soundbite ranting. Lots of people have bought into that rhetoric and are happy to churn out soundbite releases and in reality havent actually got around to thinking about things for themselves. The real problem imho is industrial co2 emissions and pollution, especially in the developing countries as someone earlier pointed out we sold them all our dirty stuff so we didnt have to breath the local pollution ourselves (national nimbyism), the car is just a easy smokescreen target that can be identified without problem daily for "normal" people to focus their anger on.

Also, ignoring the black helicopters circling for a bit, the methane stuff was probally withdrawn to stop people badly implementing it and making a large bomb in a urban setting and suing them, and the pv stuff because electricity can kill.  And thats just the crappily designed commercial stuff :)


bullet350

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #29 on: March 19, 2007, 11:10:42 PM »
mr fluffy is spot on.
i like the idea of self sufficiency and not destroying the planet.
i had some work as an agency driver and drove dust carts for a while. since standing on top of a landfill that was probably 300yards deep at the shallowest parts, and at least 2 miles in each direction, i now recyle as much as possible. it certainly makes you wonder.
90% of this land fill was plastic wrapping. there is very little that needs to be wrapped in plastic. surely there must be some paper based packaging that could be mass produced and then rot down in a month once its wet?

as for toyota prius...
  you know they are sitting in their car feeling all smug 'cos they're saving the planet. the car produces so much pollutants when its built it'd have to last 200 years to offset it. besides it gets less mpg than equivalent cars, probably because the engine has to charge a massive battery to power the stupid contraption.
and how long do modern cars last? very few make ten years. all the electronics in them die, ever used a ten year old computer?
and then where does all the plastics used to make it go?

my mate has a 56 land rover that does about 18mpg. it contains virtually no plastic and was quite eco friendly to build, the fact it has lasted 50 years so far makes it better than a prius.

so why the campaigns to get us all into cars less than 3 years old?
 average car = £17000
17.5% of £17000 = £2975
add to this corporation tax from the manufacturers, income tax from those building cars. then those building cars buy a car...

its a big financial merry-go-round!

compare that to a land rover bought once in 50 years.

besides my old morris minor gave 47mpg at 65mph, and 38mpg at 70mph. how many modern cars can equal that figure?
anyway in the rain it could powerslide round every bend. try that in your prius!

350bullet