Author Topic: the global warming swindle  (Read 2235 times)

bullet350

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the global warming swindle
« on: March 08, 2007, 11:32:09 PM »
 did anybody else see the channel 4 programme about global warming?

long story short:
    earth is warming up.
    caused 99% by variations in the suns activity.
    media loves a crisis.
    politicians love the power allowed by such a cause.
    lots of companies and individuals making money from global warming & green issues.
    government funded scientists always agree with government.

the programme backed up my own beliefs (not a scientist just a rational thinker), and concluded that the earths temprature has risen and fallen since the year dot and will continue to do so with only minor effects on the human way of life.

Discuss.

350bullet

steveD

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2007, 11:40:38 PM »
A perfectly rational point of view discussed by very knowledgable persons including some fascinating evidence to back up their rationale, ie in the Middle ages it was much hotter than now and productivity was up! The Thames froze over during a period colder than we have now and it got colder during the industrial revolution even though the earth was using more carbon based fuels (should have heated up!?*)

I'm convinced, I'm gonna ride both my bikes as much as I can, lets have a really good summer!

Cheers SteveD
If I'm not working I'll be away on my bike camping!

Steffan

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2007, 11:42:05 PM »
Not at one time I trust?

Steffan

hondamichael

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2007, 09:04:30 AM »
i have no arguments against nice ,warm,sunny,dry summers  at as avarage temperature of 30 celsius and winters at a average 20 celsius  ...ok a bit rain would come handy but please between 1am and 4am

guest18

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2007, 09:08:17 AM »
i have no arguments against nice ,warm,sunny,dry summers  at as avarage temperature of 30 celsius and winters at a average 20 celsius  ...ok a bit rain would come handy but please between 1am and 4am
What? just when we're coming home from a party :o nah, rain between 0900 and 1000 daily Monday to Friday would be much better ;)

Paulgertie

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2007, 10:11:25 AM »
Ok so we now have 2 totally opposed views, but here's a thought what's the harm in not wasting energy e.g. turn off unused lights, it ain't that hard. Plus whatever the arguement for global warming there's still pollution et al. As one who has what is probably an enviromental disease where's the harm in putting less crap into it.
Paul

hondamichael

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2007, 10:31:37 AM »
ok then first ged rid of oil burners , wood burners ,gas burners , the loved open fire places in the living rooms , insulate your houses better then fit solar cells on the roofs a wind generator in your garden , heat your water with solar energy .... there is loads we could do but ..they all cost a lot of money and ok there would be a sollution  ask the goverment :everybody who does theses changes should then be allowed to live taxfree  and interest free and for the rest of his life

Andy M

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2007, 11:06:24 AM »
did anybody else see the channel 4 programme about global warming?

long story short:
    earth is warming up.
    caused 99% by variations in the suns activity.
    media loves a crisis.
    politicians love the power allowed by such a cause.
    lots of companies and individuals making money from global warming & green issues.
    government funded scientists always agree with government.

the programme backed up my own beliefs (not a scientist just a rational thinker), and concluded that the earths temprature has risen and fallen since the year dot and will continue to do so with only minor effects on the human way of life.

Discuss.

350bullet

Easy to prove isn't it? I'm sure that for the last 40 years at least we've had the technology to measure the suns output via satelites etc. If there is more input of energy from space we'd measure it wouldn't we?. If the same input results in higher temperatures it has to be the insulation caused by pollution or another energy source inside the Earths atmosphere. I didn't see the film, but surely they'd mention physical measurements to back up the theory?

Personally, if it was that simple i'm sure the "it can't exist" lobby would be getting much coverage. Still, conspiracies are usually much more fun.

Now, where did I put my water powered engine design........

Andy

guest40

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2007, 11:24:41 AM »
Currently in Perth we are running at 27-29 C, which is nicer than 3 days running at 42C+
I went for  a quick ride Tonight and it was very enjoyable, even with the leathers. Our summer seems to have arrived a bit late, but with luck it will level off for a few weeks before we descend into the winter teens
For you sailors: gusty and strong winds from the southerly @40kph.
Our states northern coastline has been hit by Cyclone George, with much damage to the isolated mining camps, and towns such as Karratha and Pt Hedland.   Cyclone Jacob is hitting the same area again on Sunday.
There have been a number of casualties with 2 fatalities.
Winds have been clocked @235kph + from Cyclone George.
 Imagine that hitting a Metropolis.
The Cyclones seem to be more regular with much more veracious winds than in the past.


 


bikeseamus

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2007, 11:32:17 AM »
  The largest anticipated effect upon Humans will be the loss of hundreds of villiages, towns, and cities of every size in coastal locations.
                            The warming is undeniable, though those with monetary interests in maintaining oil and coal will deny the heating and pollution caused by trillions of running hours by various coal and oil fired vehicles for over two centuries now.

  That denial is, quite literally, incredible.

      CO2 alone causes tremendous heating as a greenhouse gas, and the destruction of oxygen generating rain forests will continue to make the place less hospitable for many types of animals that need oxygen to breathe.

  I think a greater impact upon the Earth is the weight of the Human population upon the other resources of the World.

     Coming into the 20th Century, there were one billion of us, for the very first time. As we entered the 21st, we were over six billion and counting.
                                             Our requirements for fertile croplands with adequate water alone will deplete relatively soon at the rate we're going.

                                         I think we will join the other extinct species of Earth, as we are unable to control our population. One billion people may be sustainable...... ten billion simply will not be.

   A law of nature in the animal world is that if any animal becomes overpopulated for any number of reasons, Mother Nature will certainly exert control.
                                        Her methods are direct and never fail.         Famine and disease.    In the case of Humans, throw in war.
                           Competition for resources and a quest for territory is the nature of Humans and many other animals as well.
                Combine that with an out of control unsustainable Human Population Explosion, and it is making for a rocky ride, with lots of bumps in the road ahead.

   I see no end in sight, but I do find the bumps easier to avoid on a motorcycle, if you hear me on that.  

     Nobody gets out alive.

OMEGAMAN

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2007, 01:08:16 PM »
I'm all for saving energy where I can but perhaps I'm being a little cynical here, surely if we all start using less energy, then the utility companies (now private & committed to profits) will just put up their prices to compensate for a loss in profits due to less consumption of their product, leading to all of us saving the resources, (which the companies will still sell), but still paying the same (or more) for what we use????

guest27

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #11 on: March 09, 2007, 01:59:00 PM »
Mmmmmmmm

Being as we get S4C I may or may not have missed the prog - would like to have seen it.

Now - the Earth is a Dynamic, Complex Adaptive System, it is not a simple closed system, nor is it a pile of sand.  As a consiquence selecting data points to support your cause whilst ignoring others that do not - is a typical exercise in tampering.  If we take a run chart of global average temp which goes back before records were kept as we can use ice core and tree ring data etc, we can see that global average temps have fluctuated over time.  If we take local temp records - for the UK for instance - we can see that these have also fluctuated over time - and the variation is greater than in the global average temp.  This is because there are sinks and soaks, etc within the whole that allows localised variation.  For example, one of the thopughts on global warming is that the temperature in the UK could actually drop, and that in the equatorial regions could rise more. Current thought is that the Northern European mean will rise, that the Gulf Stream / North Atlantic Conveyer will not switch off and that we will have more rain and higher winds - more extremes of weather.

Take those global average run charts and do a simple XmR calculation on them and we get all the data points within 3 sigma units of the mean - this indicates a stable system - however there have been periods when this stability has wobbled a little (good old chaos and complexity)  However - more resent average temperatures indicate a different sort of pertubation, we should (arguably) be looking at a down turn in temps but we actually see a systemic shift in temperature.  This IS very very very different to the natural variation we have seen over the past 100,000 plus years.  It is also very very very different to the spin the 'global warming deniers' put on the very carefully selected data points they use.

All CAS can show dynamic complexity.  There is a delay of variable length between cause and effect, and this can vary dependent on circumstance.  Simple example - you are stopped in a queue of traffic at some lights, the lights go green - in a system showing no dynamic complexity all the cars, bikes etc would move off as one and gaps would develop due to varying speed as you progress.  However there is a dynamic delay in the system - hence the cars further back do not move.  If the queue is long enough you will see the lights on red and still be moving forwards as the dynamic complexity moves the other way.  Simulaly - ever been on the motorway when there is a big delay which suddenly clears and there is no evident cause... Similar things happen in the environement.  The industrial revolution was a) pretty small and poxy on a global scale - it was big news in the North of Europe but most of the world has not even got that far yet. It kicked out loads of dust in Norther Europe and increased CO2.  The dust has a pretty instant effect - sit in the sun = hot, close the curtains to create shade = cooler.  The CO2 produced however has a much longer time for impact, hence the reasons that if we stopped all industrial activity NOW! the effects of the CO2 and CO2 equivelents we have produced will continue to have a building effect for some decades before the system sinks it all back.

And as was said - what is wrong with acting as if global warming was a reality - even if later it turns out to be true.  Unless you are about to die from dehydration, not knowing if the clear liquid in the pop bottle is water or paraquat ahs one pretty simple answer - unless you are an infant - dont drink it!  If it is water you have just gone a little thirsty, if it is paraquat drinking it is pretty terminal.  In our selfish little lifetime, the prospect of a slightly less productive and rich future that acting on the premise is real may make us think - bollox I will not be around if I am wrong, however if we believe we are immortal - through our children, and through the return of the minerals etc from us to the general biomass when we die (Unless you are like Princess Di and have been buried in a lead lined coffin) then the slight hiccup in the ever growing wealth of the Northern Hemisphere is a little price to pay, just in case.

Oh and from a perfectly scientific point of view.  The Holocaust happened, to deny it in may countries is a crime, and in absence of the criminal aspect you have to be pretty odd to deny it happened.  Global warming will probably kill more people than the holocaust, to sit idly by like,our grandfathers did, and whatch it happen is a true crime against humanity, to deny that it is happening - or is probably happening - is conspiricy to commit that crime.

Can I get off my soap box now please?

R

hondamichael

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2007, 03:23:51 PM »
did anybody mention the fact :humans are producing about 2 kg co2 per day only by breathing ...
also all living creatures on earth are producing co2 by breathing ....
and did anyone mention the fact : plants are producing co2 as a by product of theire photosynthesis
so the fastest way to reduce co 2 is ged rid of half the population(dead people dont drive/fly/heat) /animals /plants on earth and this discussion is sortet
radical solution but a logical one

guest27

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2007, 04:13:10 PM »
Michael - do not talk such bananas!

Plants do not proiduce CO2 through photosynthesis - they produce it through respiration - just like animals - the process of releasing energy from simple sugars through oxidation.  Photosynthesis is the process of building simple sugars by the combining of CO2 with water - using sunlight as the energy source.  Photosynthesis strips CO2 from the atmosphere.

As to Humans producing CO2 - yes we do - as a byproduct of respiration. Where we breakdown simple sugars (and fat and protein) to release energy.  Amongst the by products from this are CO2 and water.  Thus all the CO2 we exhale has come from either  the veg you ate or the meat you ate.  Now here is the rub.  Cattle produce large amounts of CO2 and CH4.  Both are produced from the carbon in the grass and feeds they eat, so no net gain.  BUT - and a big but - we pproduce cattle feed using large amounts of artificial fertilizer, as a consiquence we can get more cattle living on an acre of land, and the CH4 production can become an issue.

Remember - to all intents - any CO2 produced by an animal or a plant, has come from carbon released as part of respiration, this carbon has come from simple sugars, fats and proteins.  These have either been produced by plants fixing the CO2 from the atmosphere, or by animals eating plants that were fixing plants from the atmosphere.  To all intents this is a null sum - the CO2 released was reasently fixed from the atmosphere by plants.

To cut CO2 we need to stop releasing carbon tied up in long term stores - fossil fuels etc.  and medium term stores - trees.  Building houses from wood and growing more trees can fix this carbon for long periods.  Killing off animals will make very little difference.

Mineral weathering makes loads of difference.

R

Julian217

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Re: the global warming swindle
« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2007, 05:13:14 PM »
It depends.  Its only really the anti lobby that still use the phrase 'global warming'   most scientist now talk about climate change. Some areas of the world do seem to be getting cooler, eastern seaboard of the US for example.

But atmospheric C02 concentrations have increased since the industrial revolution by at least 100ppm
according to the scientist who compiled the latest UN  Intergovernmetal Panel on climate change report.

Aside from the known climate effects of greenhouse gas increase what will this do to our health ?

El Ninio is expected to be the worst ever this year.

The DTI has buried a report which suggested that 20% of all UK energy could be produced through home generation, wind solar etc. Used to be here  http://www.dti.gov.uk/energy/consultations/pdfs/microgeneration-est-report.pdf

This is equivallent to the amount currently made by nuclear.  But isn't nuclear the least polluting option, certainly produces the least greenhouse gas.

There is no evidence of birds being killed by wind farms.

And I ride a motorbike to work instead of taking the train which is actually quicker.