Author Topic: 250RS  (Read 1465 times)

Propellor

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250RS
« on: October 30, 2013, 07:22:32 PM »
Anyone a bit of a 250RS specialist?

Just bought one. Looking to buy new fork stanchions but appears they're not available anymore. Ok, there's the re straightening/chroming/grinding option, but has anyone fitted forks from a different bike, honda or otherwise?

Has anyone tried running the engine without the counter balance shafts?

Cheers.
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guest564

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2013, 08:50:04 PM »
I would just get the forks re-chromed, otherwise you'll have to mess with springs and damping rates to get it to handle properly. It'll shake to pieces without the balancers.

Propellor

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2013, 09:07:52 PM »
Rhinoman said:   "......It'll shake to pieces without the balancers."

Shame that. They weigh sooo much.

The thought of removing first gear even crossed my crazy mind. Applying the catch 22 principle. Get rid of the weight and you won't need first gear. I know, I know.... Mad.

Cheers.
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Propellor

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2013, 12:53:05 PM »
Anyone know any engine performance mods?

Cheers
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johnr

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2013, 06:37:50 PM »
well it all depends what you want. you say youve just bought it, so you havent ridden it much, so how do you know you need more performance? the 250rs is a lovely motor in a sweet handling chassis, its not blisteringly quick, and its not a race bike, but for what it is, a lithe pleasant 250 single, its bloody lovely. tuning the motor will essentially change everything about it, if its got more power, then it might benefit from better brakes, and then you might find that you want better suspension, then you find youve a great handling bike with fab brakes but you need more power etc etc etc, just saying 'i want more performance displays a bit of an ignorance as to what performance is. i could make my bike go faster accelerate better handle better and stop better without spending a bean. i would go and lose 5 stone and bingo, not a spanner laid on the bike. you see performance is about much more than power, you could go for a big bore kit and that might give you a few extra bhp, but the chances are that alone it wouldnt do much, so up the compression, some head and valve work, a nice cam, a decent exhaust, and congratulations, youve just spent a grand on a 500 quid bike and made it worth 750 quid and it will now keep up with a 400 superdream. you see what im saying, power is an expensive product, the more you want the more it costs, and at the end of the day you will end up with something only marginally quicker than when you started. anyhow, the one tuning mod that i can give you for a cb250rs that people will agree with and that will genuinely give you more power and torque and not affect reliability, at least not engine reliability, is to fit an xl500 engine into the frame and do away with the 250 lump completely. back in the day this was a quite common modification and when you look at the cost of tuning an engine, the 500 motor swap becomes incredibly good value, especially if you can find someone to buy your surplus 250 engine.

Propellor

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2013, 07:43:40 AM »
well it all depends what you want. you say youve just bought it, so you havent ridden it much, so how do you know you need more performance? the 250rs is a lovely motor in a sweet handling chassis, its not blisteringly quick, and its not a race bike, but for what it is, a lithe pleasant 250 single, its bloody lovely. tuning the motor will essentially change everything about it, if its got more power, then it might benefit from better brakes, and then you might find that you want better suspension, then you find youve a great handling bike with fab brakes but you need more power etc etc etc, just saying 'i want more performance displays a bit of an ignorance as to what performance is. i could make my bike go faster accelerate better handle better and stop better without spending a bean. i would go and lose 5 stone and bingo, not a spanner laid on the bike. you see performance is about much more than power, you could go for a big bore kit and that might give you a few extra bhp, but the chances are that alone it wouldnt do much, so up the compression, some head and valve work, a nice cam, a decent exhaust, and congratulations, youve just spent a grand on a 500 quid bike and made it worth 750 quid and it will now keep up with a 400 superdream. you see what im saying, power is an expensive product, the more you want the more it costs, and at the end of the day you will end up with something only marginally quicker than when you started. anyhow, the one tuning mod that i can give you for a cb250rs that people will agree with and that will genuinely give you more power and torque and not affect reliability, at least not engine reliability, is to fit an xl500 engine into the frame and do away with the 250 lump completely. back in the day this was a quite common modification and when you look at the cost of tuning an engine, the 500 motor swap becomes incredibly good value, especially if you can find someone to buy your surplus 250 engine.

Thanks. I'll look into that. It's not my first 250rs by the way.
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Steve H

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 07:24:35 PM »
I did speak to a guy running a 250RS based hill climber and he had removed the balancers, not sure how practical it would be on the road. If it were me I would probably get the cam re-ground, slightly bigger carb and a better exhaust.
I built a 500RS some time ago and engines were hard to find back ten, not sure where you would get one these days.

Propellor

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 07:48:18 PM »
I did speak to a guy running a 250RS based hill climber and he had removed the balancers, not sure how practical it would be on the road. If it were me I would probably get the cam re-ground, slightly bigger carb and a better exhaust.
I built a 500RS some time ago and engines were hard to find back ten, not sure where you would get one these days.

Hi, thanks for reply.

I suppose I could disconnect the balancer chain easy enough? To do a test run and see.

Re cam, what were you thinking? Higher lift? Or a change to the duration? Overlap?

A mate reckons there is such a thing as a 350cc version for japan? The idea of a perkier 250 or maybe a jump to 350 sounds more appealing than dropping in a 500. Absolutely nothing wrong with a 500 but just not what I had in mind for this particular project. Probably!

Once I've finished some work on the old Beemer, I can drag the 250 in and get cracking. Can't wait.

Cheers.
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Steve H

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 10:01:05 PM »
You may find that if you just disconnect the chain then the weights will clash with the crank. On the SRX if you spin the weights before fitting the timing gears then they will hit the crank.
As for cam I would go more for longer duration, you can increase the lift to some extent but need to be careful if you are using stock springs. 
There used to be a kit for the XL250S, from memory it was something like 325cc. The US Ebay may be your best

Propellor

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2013, 10:08:21 PM »
You may find that if you just disconnect the chain then the weights will clash with the crank. On the SRX if you spin the weights before fitting the timing gears then they will hit the crank.
As for cam I would go more for longer duration, you can increase the lift to some extent but need to be careful if you are using stock springs. 
There used to be a kit for the XL250S, from memory it was something like 325cc. The US Ebay may be your best

Thanks

Sound advice.

The longer duration would presumably affect overlap?

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Steve H

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2013, 10:12:24 PM »
Yep it will increase overlap, so you may need to increase the static CR to get back the loss in dynamic CR dues to the overlap.

Propellor

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #11 on: November 05, 2013, 06:54:35 AM »
Yep it will increase overlap, so you may need to increase the static CR to get back the loss in dynamic CR dues to the overlap.


I have no means of (bench) testing any of this sort of stuff so I'd need to rely on someone else's past and proven knowledge.

Edit: I meant I have no means of testing gas flow or anything "dynamic".

I don't even know the settings for the standard motor yet. I'm quite looking forward to messing about with my spare motor.

Will the dynamic CR change over the rev range? I thought the whole idea of changing valve timings was to (attempt to) increase cylinder filling at certain rpm, accepting that you'll make it worse at other rpm. At the rpm where these moves are successful, won't the dynamic CR be higher, by definition?

What way is there of testing this, apart from building, running, finding doesn't feel right and starting again?

Cheers.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2013, 07:01:22 AM by Propellor »
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Steve H

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2013, 09:54:09 PM »
As an engines speed increases the time to fill the cylinder reduces this lowers the volumetric efficiency and as such reduces the charge available for combustion. If you look at a typical torque curve you will see peaks somewhere around mid-engine speed and then tails off. Since power is a function of torque multiplied by speed this means that if the torque drops of too quickly then the power will follow.
By increasing the duration you give the engine longer to fill the cylinder at higher revs, this has the effect of stopping the torque tailing off so quickly and moves peak torque further up the rev range. Increased power.
The downside is that increasing the duration also increases the overlap, this isnt so much of a problem at high engines speeds but at low engine speeds (when the increased duration isn't really needed) it means that the charge can go straight out the exhaust. Reduced Power. This is the problem that the Honda VTEC solves.
You can get some of this back by increasing the static CR.
Its a lot more complicated than this and to be honest I only know enough to make me dangerous !.
   

Propellor

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2013, 06:56:29 AM »
As an engines speed increases the time to fill the cylinder reduces this lowers the volumetric efficiency and as such reduces the charge available for combustion. If you look at a typical torque curve you will see peaks somewhere around mid-engine speed and then tails off. Since power is a function of torque multiplied by speed this means that if the torque drops of too quickly then the power will follow.
By increasing the duration you give the engine longer to fill the cylinder at higher revs, this has the effect of stopping the torque tailing off so quickly and moves peak torque further up the rev range. Increased power.
The downside is that increasing the duration also increases the overlap, this isnt so much of a problem at high engines speeds but at low engine speeds (when the increased duration isn't really needed) it means that the charge can go straight out the exhaust. Reduced Power. This is the problem that the Honda VTEC solves.
You can get some of this back by increasing the static CR.
Its a lot more complicated than this and to be honest I only know enough to make me dangerous !.
 

Food for thought.

Thanks for reply. Appreciated.

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Propellor

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Re: 250RS
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2013, 08:49:32 PM »
Rhinoman said:   "There was a guy who raced a 300cc Yoshi converted RS back in the eighties, it was a very quick motor."

Sounds good.
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