In the age of global warming......

[Paulgertie]

I did consider hitting the report to moderator button, this is a bloody good question and great answers, but my head hurts now and I feel even more guilt, does this count as assault.
Paul

[Steve Lake]

Hells Bells................imho......we really are too late..... whatever we do now will have little effect on where this planet will be in a 100 years time.
I'm convinced that the planet has gone through far worse upheavals in its history, and will do so in the future...and survived them. The human race happens to be an unfortunate and insignificant (though catestrophic) interlude in the planets history,
a mistake that evolution probably won't make again...... as someone said the co*kroaches will out survive us all.

So i shall continue enjoy my odd trip out whilst i can, ruining my otherwise carbon neutral footprint.

[guest27]

Hi all again

Bio ethanol - a disaster waiting to happen.  Like the eleccy boys who seem to think that electricity is carbon nutral - where does this come from?  In the main it is intensivly (read non-sustainably) raised corn, either grown where it should not - ie cutting down swathes of the carbon sink (read rain forest) or on land needed for food.  To make it economic it has to be grown with massive fertiliser etc inputs - which come in the main from fossil sources and take loads of energy to produce.  Then the residues of these in the watercourses, adipose tissue etc are not dealt with by the producers / users but through other taxation - IF and this is a big IF - IF the cost of removing artificial fertilisesrs etc was added to the cost of food crops grown with those fertilizers etc - the cost would typically be greater than for similar Organic produce - gives you an idea of the financial oncosts of intensive growing - and apart from in "Cars" I have not seen 'Organic' fuel yet.

The world has suffered worse?  Mmmm the rate of change and the magnitude of change and the cause of change are all pretty unique.  There is this feeling that the world as a complex adaptive system will cope - but remember that neither Venus not Mars coped.  If we make a systemic pertebation for which there is no stable state - we cause runaway reinforcing systemic change we could see cataclysmic changes with in 50 to 100 years of that pertebation.  Just a basic XbarR chart of the temperature shows that we had a systemic change 10 years or more ago, and this change seems to be a growth system, and it seems to be moving faster than the general consensus.  Lovelock showed quite clearlyt with the Daisyworld experiments how quickly and how easily a complex adaptive system ceases to be adaptive and just fails.

Curry at the end of the month - nice analogy, but maybe we ought to be enjoying our heathy eating rather than seeing it as a pennance to be 'treated' with a curry.

Big business being the problem - nope, big business just serves us.  If we do not like the actions of (eg) Exxon but think SHell are OK - then use Shell not Exxon petrol.  If you do not like the actions of Nestle, dont buy their products.

Mmmm does this make me bipolar? - Arguing against what is in the garage?

R

[themoudie]

What's wrong with conversion into a Venus or Mars?

All seems a bit NIMBY.

No one asked you if you would like to appear in the production, you do your best with the part you're dealt and you maybe fortunate to leave your genes and some icons for which you'll be remembered by.

Live 'The Spark', you might be one of those cockroaches or amoeba!

[themoudie]

Sums this debate up nicely! ;-)

http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df200605/df20060529.jpg

[Andy M]

Hi all again

Bio ethanol - a disaster waiting to happen.  Like the eleccy boys who seem to think that electricity is carbon nutral - where does this come from?  In the main it is intensivly (read non-sustainably) raised corn, either grown where it should not - ie cutting down swathes of the carbon sink (read rain forest) or on land needed for food.  To make it economic it has to be grown with massive fertiliser etc inputs - which come in the main from fossil sources and take loads of energy to produce.  Then the residues of these in the watercourses, adipose tissue etc are not dealt with by the producers / users but through other taxation - IF and this is a big IF - IF the cost of removing artificial fertilisesrs etc was added to the cost of food crops grown with those fertilizers etc - the cost would typically be greater than for similar Organic produce - gives you an idea of the financial oncosts of intensive growing - and apart from in "Cars" I have not seen 'Organic' fuel yet.


R

Never looked at it that way. I guess the sugar based stuff in Brazil is intensively farmed on cut down rain forest land?

The fuel cell brigade are rather ahead of their time too and seem to skip over the bit where they can't have a fusion reactor to make the hydrogen and so distill it from oil! The media then go on about taking hydrogen and oxygen and having water as a by product!

Harry Harrison had a solution, the flywheel vehicle. Ok, it'll only go in straight lines and until we make frictionless bearings it'll be a years winding up for every 10 minute ride, but it would run on beer and curry!

I don't think there is any doubt that the planet will survive and sort itself out in the end. The question seems to be if humans will be about to see it (with no disrespect to Venusians, Martians etc.). As an off topic comment, I wonder how much H G Wells worked out? The idea of Martians coming to get the Earth because Mars was dying seems pretty topical these days. Boots on the other foot now of course. Pass me the heat ray......

Andy

[guest27]

Hi All

Neither Venus nor Mars appear to be complex adaptive Systems - the atmosphere is for all intents and purpose a stable gas mix.  Earth on the other hand has an unstable gas mix - suggesting that something is occurring over and above the normal geological gubbins to affect it.  This would be life, which is complex and adaptable.  There may be a slight imbalance of methane on Mars - suggesting that there may be small amounts of life - but as Lovelock points out - not alot as you cannot pick it up on the spectrograph's from here - where as the O2 CH4 etc in the Earths atmosphere would stand out like a beacon.

Venus and Mars are stable state systems, we are Complex and Adaptive - and whilst I may not survive and my boys may have a struggle on their hands I would like to think life will continue - but it may not...

As Dr Deming used to say about businesses Survival is not guaranteed

[fraggle850]

But can we now justify driving as well as riding purely for pleasure?? By that I mean hopping on the bike/in the car and going for a jolly. I'm not so sure we can. To be honest, I've never been that big on pleasure rides just for their own sake, but that's more to do with cost, time and family commitments plus I get to ride every day (near enough) with a just reason anyway (ie work/shopping/visiting etc)

Errr...the winters are milder now, is that a bad thing? I never really liked riding in snow and ice. Also, you hop in the car for pleasure?

There's a much bigger picture, don't let the powers that be use global warming as an excuse to control you and take your money and fun. If there was a political will to save the world it would require fairer distribution of the worlds resources in general and that aint gonna happen. It is no accident that conspicuous consumption goes hand in hand with membership of the political and social elite.

The earth is a self-regulating system; it'll rectify itself and humans will probably survive in some form, it might be a bit traumatic though so better stock up on penicilin and black powder. The problem is not the amount we waste individually, there are just too many of us but we breed readily so are fairly expendable.

[fraggle850]

bear in mind the human element is a constant   

But it's not, we keep breeding and have too few natural predators.

Enjoy your bike and don't feel guilty (unless you've neglected to change the oil).

Your starting post asked whether we could justify riding for pleasure, what better reason is there? I've given up doing hard miles and bought a car for the chores.

...never mind light the blue touch paper and retreat to a safe distance, throw a match in the box and stand there grinning like a loony.

[squirrelciv]

bear in mind the human element is a constant   

But it's not, we keep breeding and have too few natural predators.

Enjoy your bike and don't feel guilty (unless you've neglected to change the oil).

Your starting post asked whether we could justify riding for pleasure, what better reason is there? I've given up doing hard miles and bought a car for the chores.

...never mind light the blue touch paper and retreat to a safe distance, throw a match in the box and stand there grinning like a loony.

LOL LOL LOL!
Good points. I suppose of all the 'pleasure polluters' out there, us lot on aging thumpers are the less damaging (the kettle club have a lot to answer for mind!) so I shall carry on being good for 95% of the time and enjoy a few miles every now and then.

Good debate though :-)

[guest27]

Errr...the winters are milder now, is that a bad thing? I never really liked riding in snow and ice. Also, you hop in the car for pleasure

Depends on how you define a bad thing - we are getting and will get more extreams of weather - storms wind etc and the lack of cold does not kill off the slugs etc, nor does it stratify the seeds of our wild trees etc.

The earth is a self-regulating system; it'll rectify itself and humans will probably survive in some form, it might be a bit traumatic though so better stock up on penicilin and black powder. The problem is not the amount we waste individually, there are just too many of us but we breed readily so are fairly expendable.

It is at present - but SRS are fragile and prone to collapse from runaway inputs.  There is no reason to believe that either the Earth will settle in a new slot nor that we or anything will survive.  It probably will settle down somewhere - but frankly I have growing doubts.

It is not that there are too many of us it is that we use too much each - one - cutting consumption we can address creativly and humanly, too many people we can only hope for pestilence or a damn good war.

R

[hondamichael]

global warming ? whats wrong with nice warm winters with 20 celsius and summers in the high 30celsius  ,
perfect biking weather all year round , global warming sounds like bikers paradies ,no more frozen toes and fingers

 the aftereffects of global warming in 50 years time like  rising sealevels are not an issue realy ,the dutch live far under sealevel and have a coastline too and no problems with this fact in reality they even have a profit from it they get theire energy produced from the sea , they dont need nuclear powerstations they get it from the sea  , to compare it just before london they have build a huge barrier but are they using it like the dutch to produce energy  on a big scale ...no

[squirrelciv]

I have to say those who think warmer winters and sunny summers make global warming a good thing are akin to drug addicts who suggest the kick from a fix is worth it. Doh! True, this seems OK for now, but nature is slow to adapt to climatic change and this (relatively) sudden alteration will have dramatic effects in the future. Already sea life is being effected, with migration, feeding and breeding habits changing. Britain is getting invaded by some very unpleasant insect life too which find they can thrive here now.

By all means let us enjoy our bikes, but we owe it to future generations to start cleaning things up a bit.

[hondamichael]

i was just a bit sarcastic , but i realy cant see a way for me doing more for the envirement 
i dont need much energy in my bedsit , i have energy saving bulbs fitted  , i even dont use plasic bags when i go shopping , fits all in the topbox
my bike is nearly eco friendly euro2 conform and always between 90 and 110 mpg , best was 116mpg on a trip to france, while others take the plane to paris an pollute our earth with one trip more then i in years on my bike

[fraggle850]

There was a little sarcasm in my original posting too, sorry! I generally agree with the thrust of what people are saying here but I really do think that we're p******g in the wind without any global political concensus; Kyoto's a farce and that's our only hope??!!??

In the meantime the powers that be will use the whole business as another excuse to waste our taxes on interfering with our lives and skanking yet more taxes off us to replace what they are wasting to pay for the army of bean-counting bureaucrats required to fine us for putting the wrong kind of bottles in the wrong bins.

I doubt whether anyone here is a serious offender in the carbon stakes; older vehicles have paid the environmental debt owed by their construction and singles are generally frugal.

I had a new BMW X5 pull up next to me at a set of lights the other day; the chrome legend on it's side suggested it was 4.6 litres! If global warming is a problem why not just ban the sale of personal transport with an engine capacity greater than 2 litres? That'd be a start...in fact, ban the sale of all new vehicles; we'd have to fix the ones we have and make them more efficient.

CO2 is a by-product of global capitalism, I'd wager that it's level of production more or less reflects the wealth of the producer.

We're scr**ed, enjoy the warmer weather while you can and don't feel guilty.