Moral Dilemma

[Bill Rutter]

I was going to put this topic forward not as a Start the Week topic but more as a Start the Year subject, but it's been brought to a head tonight. A very good friend's wife (who I'lll admit is arrogant and obnoxious) is a drink-driver, no more, no less. I've known this for a couple of months but I really thought it was just a case of a wine and soda or two, before heading home with a hard-working husband who has had far much more to drink, for a distance of say half a mile or maybe a little more. But tonight I got a glimpse of how awful this woman was when folk told me she had had at least five drinks in our local and had been drinking in the pub along the road for at least two hours before. Before she left (with her offspring  may I also add) I challenged her. Her reply was "I'm always careful, silly" to which I stated that I had lost at least two friends to "careful, but over the top" drivers. What do you think I should do? My instinct is to call the Police, but I don't want to fall out with a very good friend. (As I am writing this, I can feel the nature of your replies, believe me). Personally, I think she should be strung up...oh what to do!

[guest18]

You've challenged her, she knows the rules, she's prepared to risk her own children.

How will you feel if she hits someones mother/father/child...? Or maims or kills her own... or even takes a biker off and cripples or kills them? Even if she kills or cripples herself? Will you feel guilty for not stopping her?

How will it affect her life?

Next time she's leaving the pub disappear and make a quiet phone call to the Police, name, car type, Registration if you have it. You suspect she is drunk driving. Nothing more, nothing less. If she is, then they will catch her and she will lose her license for a year and pay over the odds for insurance for ten. She should never know it's a tip off or by who.
No-one dies or is hurt, no one is caught for anything that they are not guilty of.

Your choice, but I hope you never hear she's been involved in a crash...

nb. I had the same problem with a friend at work who was otherwise a nice guy. If I had known he was doing it on one of the occaissions he did I would have phoned the Police, for the reasons listed above. No I don't want to see him lose his license, but again we were not talking about one or two pints, we were talking six or seven or more, imho there is a HUGE difference between the two.

[Bill Rutter]

I know you're right Smudge, I really do. The thing is that I really put my point across quite forcefully about losing friends to drink-drivers, her manner beggered belief. I'll be Suspect #1 if she gets (deservedly) pulled by the Rozzers. It just makes my blood boil! But again you are right....she will take some innocent person out and walk away unscathed, and I'll have it on my concience. How she can be so inconsiderate of her child amazes me.

[Steve H]

Bill, If you dont and she ends up hurting her kids or someone else then you will always regret not doing something about it.

[guest24]

I would sacrifice the friendship knowing that it will probably save lives. Remember most accidents happen 1/2 mile around home.

I have found that you regret the things you dont do, more than the things you do do.

[squirrelciv]

Got to do it Bill, you really have. And as for being prime suspect..... well thats all it will be. She will never know for sure. Personally If she challenged you, attack is the best form of defence and I'd say something like, " So they finally got you then? Good and If I ever find out who shopped you, I'd buy 'em a pint then drive them home" Follow this by a trip to the bar, have one pint of squash and take yourself off :-)

[Steve Lake]

It's like this Bill, If someone else makes the call, OR she gets caught by the fuzz without a call, you will still be #1 suspect....I agree with all the previous statements....do it....it's anonymous....just make sure she's over the limit 1st, and give the fuzz plent of warning, so's they can pick her up as she leaves the boozer. And good on you mate, I was hit by a pi55 artist (b4 breathalysers) luckily i was in my beloved Cooper S, which the prat nearly wrote off! had both kids and the Mrs on board, luckily everyone was strapped in, so we were just shaken up....you know what? ....he drove straight out of th pub car park into the side of my car!! I don't even know what he got, was never contacted after i gave my statement to the rozzers. Go for it ......you'll be saving someone from injury or worse.....

[Martin Churchill]

Hi Bill, I've considered this from several viewpoints:-

1) As a stupid 20-year-old I wrote off my car in the early hours of one morning against a brick wall in a Herfordshire village, and was so drunk I staggered to the phonebox and dialled 999 ro report it!  This being 32 years ago, the coppers who swiftly attended and breathalysed me (it had just come into use) as being well over the limit kindly decided not to book me, however since then a single pint or glass of wine has almost always been my limit if driving/riding, unless sufficient time has elapsed at 1 x unit (not drink) being metabolised per hour.

2)  Reaching a total of 12 speeding points lost me my licence a couple of years ago, but fortunately only for a 2 week period.  As a 30,000 mile driver + 12,000 mile biker per annum, a much longer ban would have been a major problem but I would have stayed off the road whilst banned: the dumb bitch you've described might not, and then with any luck she'd probably be jailed!

3)  I'm sorry to say that my own girlfriend will also drive short distances (alone) when she's "slightly" over the limit (and her driving is rather poor even when sober!), as do several of her friends both male & female.  None of them have had a crash whilst doing so over many years, but maybe they've been lucky so far.

4)  I'm not at all sure it's actually your personal responsibility to decide on a deliberate course of action/inaction: after all,where do you then draw the line?  Who else are you responsible for? All your friends and their families? Complete strangers?  Me?  If, as seems to be the case, the "nanny state" has now decided that speed cameras are better for road safety than patrolling police, you can't compensate for such nonsense by worrying about everyone yourself instead.......

5)  However, as you clearly do feel some responsibility, I suggest you talk to her husband when he's sober, as he definitely has some specific responsibility for the situation, especially with the kids being in her car when she's drunk.  Warn him that you've heard a nameless person in the pub threaten to report her and leave it up to him after that - if he's still not bothered then it's simply not your problem (but you may wish to reconsider your friendship with such an irresponsible pillock).

6)  Alternatively, you could confiscate her keys next time it happens, and tell her you've done her a favour this time.....

7)  Personally, I reckon hand-held mobile phone users constitute just as much of a menace to themselves & others as drunk drivers do (and I bet she does that as well).

Regards,
Martin     

[Richard 003]

I was going to put this topic forward not as a Start the Week topic but more as a Start the Year subject, but it's been brought to a head tonight. A very good friend's wife (who I'lll admit is arrogant and obnoxious) is a drink-driver, no more, no less. I've known this for a couple of months but I really thought it was just a case of a wine and soda or two, before heading home with a hard-working husband who has had far much more to drink, for a distance of say half a mile or maybe a little more. But tonight I got a glimpse of how awful this woman was when folk told me she had had at least five drinks in our local and had been drinking in the pub along the road for at least two hours before. Before she left (with her offspring  may I also add) I challenged her. Her reply was "I'm always careful, silly" to which I stated that I had lost at least two friends to "careful, but over the top" drivers. What do you think I should do? My instinct is to call the Police, but I don't want to fall out with a very good friend. (As I am writing this, I can feel the nature of your replies, believe me). Personally, I think she should be strung up...oh what to do!

How does your friend feel about her drink-driving? Any mileage in warning him that you've lost two friends to drunik drivers, and if you see her doing it again, you'll shop her?

[Richard]

Phone, anonymously if need be.  Don't abdicate responsibility by just telling the husband who must know already but chooses to ignore it.  It makes it easier if you phone now, maybe she'll be stopped and breathalysed when not pissed and scared out of it.

You, me, my kids, your kids, her kids.....  Pretty much nobody deserves to be treated otherwise.

I go to a lot of fatal and serious accidents and they are no easier to deal with than than murders.  Still dead for no purpose.

[themoudie]

Aye Bill,

Moral dilemma!

Every adult 18 and over unto their own. It's not negotiable, either you do it or you don't, the words "I forgive you" are yours alone to give.

The dilemma is, would you shop your own kith and kin, TC member on the Saturday run, fellow rallyistti on the Sunday morning return home, wife on the school run? Would you shop a relation if they were a 'domestic' abuser (female or male), pedophile or used a mobile phone whilst driving or riding?

You do what you think is right or appropriate and live with the decision. I don't wish to know of your decision. Be prepared to stand as a witness in a Court of Law or use Crimestoppers if you wish to remain anonymous. But if using the latter, don't whinge if you feel the punishment isn't appropriate, you might have been called as a witness and your evidence affected the sentence. Mob bigotry and vigilantism are just as obnoxious as the 'criminals' they purport to condemn.

There are also the questions "Why do people drink, abuse themselves, each other or children?" All can result from our unresolved individual dilemmas.

I hope you do, what you think is right.

Yours, Bill

[Bill Rutter]

I take your point, Bill, about the rallyists, for example, going on a run after a shedload of beer the previous evening. But surely that isn't quite the same as this shameless example of shoving such a dangerous, despicable act in ones face in the local. We can all overdo it but hopefully the effects will have diminished by mid-morning next day. I think I will follow Martin's advice and approach the husband in due course. If he gets a strop on I can always tell him that they're not welcome in my company anymore, I'm wouldn't be that fussed on that score anyway if that was his response.....some friend eh? After that I shall play it by ear. We all make mistakes, me probably more than most, but what is going on here is beyond the pale.
Thanks for all your replies.l

[bullet350]

i'm sure most people here have ridden the morning after and realised that they are over the limit. the difference is that whilst you are drunk enough to not have full control, you are sober enough to know it and leave extra space and take it easy.
being over the limit by a unit is one thing, being well over the limit is another. i'd let the police know, asap. although she say's she's being careful, how careful can you be when you're well over the limit?
if she was just driving herself in an area with no other traffic then i've no problem with that, its common pratice in remote areas. however with kids in the car it is completely indefensible, and what about other road users? As bikers we are all aware of our mortality, what about if its you she drives into?
in certain states in America death through drink driving counts as murder. you got drunk then drove home, therefor it was not an accidental death. sounds fair to me.
a little over the limit- down to personal choice if you drive
well over the limit- you deserve everything you get.
 bullet350

[guest27]

All the questions as to responsibility and the nanny state etc.  We are all responsible for our own actions - even if the are supposedly irrational at the time.  If we choose to ignore a person doing something that may result in the death or injury of another and we choose to do nothing about it then we are responsible for any outcome.

I have - and I will in the future - called the police, quite openly, if I think someone is driving over the limit.  It impairs your driving and often at a time when other things are not in your favour - ie at night.  I have been threatened with a good beating in the past too for having called the police.

Nope not a do-gooder just lost friends to drunk drivers, and lost friend who drove whilst drunk, but the one that brings it home to me most was that my Mum was decapitated by a drunk driver - her head was in the back seat.....

SO to my mind, call them, you may save her kids knowing what I know.

R

[Steve Lake]

Holy bloody  sh*te Rog! how terrible for you......I lost my mum when i was a kid after she had an operation...that was bad enough.....it just don't bear thinking about it, what happened to your mum....my commiserations mate