Author Topic: More on cams n valves  (Read 1134 times)

andy230

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More on cams n valves
« on: May 16, 2008, 01:11:15 PM »
Hello all,

Fellow supermonoista John Goode sent me a Stage 3 Yoshimura cam.  I had hoped that it would give lower lift than the Stage 4 Megacycle item I have.

As measured, there is slightly less on the exhaust (not such a problem anyway).  As near as dammit the same max lobe size (ie lift) as the stage 4 megacycle. 

So I am waiting for Martin Sweet's recommended "26H" valve stem seals to arrive and see if they'll give me the clearance I need.  After that (assuming they're not sufficiently small) I am going to try running without stem seals.  Perhaps agains my better judgement (and certainly against Martin Sweet's better judgement!).  But there's not too much left now...

Can someone tell me what denotes "Stage 3" and "stage 4" tuning?? 

If the lift is the same (nearly) is it overlap that is slightly different.  I got halfway thru re-reading A Graham Bell's "Cam shaft & Valvetrain" chapter last night before dropping off.  I can have a beer tonight and pick it back up!   :)

a

Steve H

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2008, 01:34:39 PM »
Andy how are you measuring lift of the Stage III, have you installed it or are you using calipers ?
At a guess the diff between the III and IV will be duration. Based on the fact that you previously mentioned how close the lobes came to the head, I would have expected less lift on the Stage III as well.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 01:45:06 PM by Steve H »

andy230

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2008, 01:52:20 PM »
Andy how are you measuring lift of the Stage III, have you installed it or are you using calipers ?

Calipers.  Not brilliant ones, they claim to 0.02mm, but I am generally only taking it to the nearest 0.1mm

Have not yet pit it in the head, it makes it no easier to measure (lots of curved surfaces inside the combustion chamber).

But I may well assemble the whole shebang over the weekend and inspect how close the collets come to the seals.

I would have expected less lift on the Stage III as well.

Yes, thats what I was hoping for...

Removal of a bit of meat off the bottom of the old collets...?  They're quite long (tho I would try runing without seals before I did this)

Thanks steve

a


« Last Edit: May 16, 2008, 02:54:47 PM by andy230 »

Steve H

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2008, 02:04:45 PM »
You will need two measurements to calc the lift. The distance from the lobe tip to base circle minus the base circle diameter. Are you doing it this way ?
The Yoshi cam I have is from a blank and hence has a larger base circle than the Stage I cam which has the base cicrcle re-ground to get the extra lift.

andy230

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2008, 03:14:51 PM »
You will need two measurements to calc the lift. The distance from the lobe tip to base circle minus the base circle diameter. Are you doing it this way ?

No, I was assuming the base circle was the same on both camshafts, tho it possibly isn't.  I was just measuring from the lobe tip to the diametrically opposite part of the base circle.  Will investigate!

The Yoshi cam I have is from a blank and hence has a larger base circle than the Stage I cam which has the base cicrcle re-ground to get the extra lift.

Right.  I get you... so maybe the Stage 3 DOES have less LIFT, but a larger base circle.

andy

Steve H

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2008, 03:24:41 PM »
The only way to be really certain is to install it

andy230

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2008, 11:58:09 AM »
Right.  I get you... so maybe the Stage 3 DOES have less LIFT, but a larger base circle.


And it does...! 

Base circle diam of the megacycle st 4 is 28.7mm
Base circle diam of the yoshi st 3 is 29.8

Will install and see how it goes.  looks like this may be the solution...

a

guest27

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2008, 07:51:37 PM »
Difference between S3 and S4 - well I would think it is just a convention to call things S3, S4 etc rather than banana and cabbage.  A Yoshi S3 may be more extream than a Megacycle S4, it just means that Yoshi had 'developed' 3 stages of tune and MC 4.  I would also guess that from different 'good' tuners, there would be some equivelence.  It is likely that a Yoshi S3 will give less peak power than a MS4.

Measuring lift and duration.  I would look to measure the lift fitted not on the cam itself.  A dial guage would be good for this, but you could do it with the depth guage feature of the calipers. It is the valve time area that changes, there is a point in lift, where lifting more does not effect the VTA, as it is the area of the port - or other feature - that restricts the flow more than the total lift.  If you have a 1980's programmable calculator JR has a prog in his 4 stroke book to work this out.  The duration is important and this is not just the broadness of the nose of the cam.  JR goes into great detail on the measuring of valve time.  He suggests that max lift needed is 0.27 X dia of valve.

Of course this could all be bollox as I have had a couple to drink...

Keep the rubber down and the leather up

R

andy230

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2008, 12:52:38 AM »
just in from the garage.  thats interesting rog, but a bit futile as the yoshi cam doesn't want to turn in the xt head with the rockerbox nipped down.  The megacycle spins pretty free, but I cant turn the yoshi by hand with the (exterior) allen screws nipped.

On measuring, the yoshi looks like the diam of the bearing surface is about 0.04ish mm greater....  bigger anyway.

why would you have an "oversize" cam??  Can you bore a head to suit?!

anyway, its f'cked!

Plan is not to wait for the new valve stem seals, and maybe dremel 40 thou off the bottom off the collets, as i am thinking they're not going to be enough on their own.

(and a killer week at work comin up!  g'night!)

a
« Last Edit: May 19, 2008, 12:03:09 PM by andy230 »

themoudie

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2008, 06:25:24 PM »
Aye Andy,

Stick it in a pole lathe and turn it down a bit. SteveL and I know it as the woodland craft of bodging!!

I realise I could be cruzin' fae a bruzin', but I hope yur week is nae bad.

My regards, Bill ;D

andy230

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2008, 09:14:44 AM »
Bill,

S'drivin me f'ckin batty!!!    >:(

Turning it down is beyond me, I'm in a hurry, and dont understand why it'd be oversize anyway...?!

Waiting on the "wee" seals, and I'll dremmel the collets.  Decided!

And if the motor goes bang I'll take the motor out the skorp and race that.  (Just put the latter back on the road for summer- woohooo!!  Lairy, uncomfortable, twitchy, and its got a light front end.  Great fun!)  Would need some decent carbs and would be underpowered (a true 50 bhp) but it would be faster than the motor in its current state.

....wish those seals would hurry up!....

a


themoudie

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Re: More on cams n valves
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2008, 08:45:12 PM »
Aye, 'Yours Frustrated',

Different problems, similar 'niggles' with part of the fleet up here!!!

Count to 10 repeat the mantra "Chill" and then reason that if you can't push through the Berlin Wall, walking round it is still achievable! ;)

My kind regards and I hope that whatever your solution, you have a safe season.

Bill.