Mid week Topic: Road position

[Andy M]

So, I left the Dragon, turned right, headed up over that little pass and the lake. I soon catch up with a group of about 10 bikes, mix of big traillies and sports bikes. What really struck me was how slow they were and how rigid their positioning was. Left hander, I'm out on the line or over it if I can see to look and be seen as far as I can. Matey in front is halfway between the line and the gutter. Right hander, I'm over to the left, big traillie guy is right where we left him on the tram lines. Double S, downhill, you can see for miles, I cut across the lot wide racing line, our friend brakes and follows the railway    Now I was going to have a rant, but maybe his hangover was bad, or he was a new rider or something. I don't do group riding, but these guys couldn't do 40 and had a trail of cars after me.

Yesterday I'm going to work on the back roads. There is a set of lights where a CBR-something is waiting. We set off together, but he gets to 60 before the MZ, so there is a gap. Theres are two farm gates. One on the left, so I head to the line for a look, one to the right, so I pull left. CBR man is on rails down the middle of our side until he see's the tractor in the second gateway. He brakes!!! I was off the throttle before he even saw it.


So, what do we think guys? Lots of hangovers? People who own shares in the brake pad suppliers? Or, dare I suggest it. lack of skills and training? Is this still a taboo subject for the weekend litre-bike brigade? Should we stick to talking about wearing the knees out of our trounsers?

Andy

[SteveC#222]

Probably, largely inexperience. If you are the right age and have enough money it's very easy to get a big bike licence these days. You can take an intensive course to pass your test in a week - a course that teaches you how to pass your test NOT how to ride a bike - and if you have the money you can go straight onto the bike of your dreams- or at the bike that MCN tells you should be the bike of your dreams that week. Add to that the fact that 'real bikers' don't need training and you have a receipt for disaster and the reason so many born agains get killed. A lot come back into biking after 20 years only to find that a 750cc these days is a very different beast to the 750 they had in the 70's.

Anticipating potential hazards is largely something that comes with experience - using the whole of your side of the road to look around corners, to see hazards before you get to them. Where I am in Lincolnshire we get a lot of bike/tractor accidents especially when the tractors come out of the fields.  As soon as I see a few lumps of mud on the road I am automatically slowing down getting ontothe centre line and looking  for the tractor that left it. With experience you don't really think about where you need to be you are just there. Also 10 years of commuting on a small bike taught me to read drivers minds to some extent - 9 times out of 10 I would know which ones were going to do something stupid...trouble is it's the other one you have to worry about! 

The Police training manual is worth a read.

As for group riding, I hate riding in groups. You often cant ride  where you want to be and have to rely on the skills of those in front of you.  Last time I went out with one of the local bike clubs  it seemed to be go like the clappers for 30 minutes overtaking anything that gets in your way, stop and have a fag, natter etc cos you've got a sore ar5e from your racing seat, go like the clappers again overtaking the same cars you overtook before and so on until you reach your destination. Not my way of riding. I never went with them again ( nice enough people but crap riders).

OK, another question.  You are on a quiet motorway section doing a steady 70mph in the inside lane ( no rush). As you go along you come to a car doing 60 mph hogging the middle lane. You gradually catch up with him and , still in the inside lane and without increasing your speed go past him.  Are you technically guilty of undertaking? Should you have gone right out to the outside lane, overtook, and then returned to the inside lane?  never been really sure how you would stand with that.

[Andy M]

OK, another question.  You are on a quiet motorway section doing a steady 70mph in the inside lane ( no rush). As you go along you come to a car doing 60 mph hogging the middle lane. You gradually catch up with him and , still in the inside lane and without increasing your speed go past him.  Are you technically guilty of undertaking? Should you have gone right out to the outside lane, overtook, and then returned to the inside lane?  never been really sure how you would stand with that.

Guilty! However, I think you'd be hard pushed to find a copper that was a) actually looking for such things and b) could be bothered to do you. Now, as a law abiding citizen meeting the plod from hell, you would possibly refuse to comment other than to confirm your details and them politely enquire as to why the bloke plonking along in lane 2 had not been pulled as well. A dab of brake as you try to prevent the undertake would no doubt help your case.

Move from the second lane to the first, pass, move back into lane two and you are in big trouble. Get another car to follow the first one and you can claim it's a queue and therefore perfectly legal.


They'd never thought of the M62 when they drew all those Ford Angulars on the back of the highway code!

Andy

[guest1166]

OK, another question.  You are on a quiet motorway section doing a steady 70mph in the inside lane ( no rush). As you go along you come to a car doing 60 mph hogging the middle lane. You gradually catch up with him and , still in the inside lane and without increasing your speed go past him.  Are you technically guilty of undertaking? Should you have gone right out to the outside lane, overtook, and then returned to the inside lane?  never been really sure how you would stand with that. Undecided

Not undertaking as far as I understand (but could be completely wrong), to undertake you need to make a deliberate manoeuvre- such as changing from the middle to the inside lane to overtake, whereas in the situation you described you are just keeping pace with the flow of traffic - as you would in a traffic jam when one lane moves faster than the other.
Whether I'm right or not, it's what I do (and have done quite a lot over the years because there are so many f###ktards who can't use motorways and think the middle lane is there to bimble along having tea and cakes in) and have never had any trouble from "the rozzers" - probably 'cos even if it is illegal, it isn't going to be the worst peice of driving they see!
Having said that I'd be dubious about doing it on the bike, as the vast majority of mouth breathing plebs that tend to get handed driving licences will neither check blind-spots nor indicate before pulling back across to the inside lane.
Sorry I think I might have turned this into a bit of a rant

[SRXer]

I quite often go up the inside if its quite obvious that the car in the middle is just unaware of their surroundings. I see it as the "going with the flow of traffic" exception.

Not so sure about on a bike though just incase they suddenly realise what a plank they are and move over as mentioned above.

[squirrelciv]

I do the odd undertake on my comute, but reckon the "He started it!" defence will save me.  If I'm getting past someone stuck in the middle lane at my leisurely 60mph cruising speed they're usually either to old to moan or actually dead already, but haven't realised. If I had to move over in to the far right lane [and stick to my 60mph] I'd be a far bigger hazard.

As for the original thread... Lets be generous and put bad riding coming home from the Dragon down to excessive beer consumption. Though I must admit, even I past a couple of guys riding like toddlers on a push-a-long rocking horse and I'm sh1t at bend swinging when the XT's loaded.

[Steve Lake]

Quite obviously a bunch of blokes on their annual outing, whatever (if any) skills they pick up are lost by the next time they venture out.

Living within 10 miles of snetterton (roll on the new circuit layout) i get a lot of cheap track days, just by turning up 'on spec' and offering cash to fill a slot....

As you know, snetterton has the longest straight in the uk (and still will have when the revised circuit is opened).... now....me on my old srx track iron, and my old fashoined ( no knees flapping about in the breeze) riding style, can still leave a lot of 1000cc kawayamonda plastic missiles behind over 6 laps.....purely down to maintaining corner speed with correct entry and exit....on what look like bicycle tyres compared to some of the stuff you see these days (ye gods....a lot are using tyre warmers on track days!!!)

Now my skills are decidedly average as far as i'm concerned, but the yoyo's i see on track days literally go round the corners 'threepenny bit style' then hammer off down the straights at silly mph..... (as Barry Sheene said....any twat can go fast in a straight line....sounds like one of his quotes anyway)

But...fairs fair....maybe the yoyo's of last year will now (thanks to their track days) will now be more confident and skilled, and use the roads properly....

I can remember being a point and squirt hero (admittedly on a bsa bantam  ) once....

the best single thing i did to improve my skills on the road was the bikesafe course, run in norfolk by the police at their hq in norwich.

i can't reccommend it too highly.... should be part of everyones skills portfolio... in fact i'd go so far as to say that it should be compulsory.... say within a year of passing your test....i really do believe itis a lifesaver.

[Richard]

Riding Welsh roads and not taking full advantage of road positioning would be mightily foolish. 

I have been to a number of accidents in which a 'born again' has taken a left hander, strayed over the white line and met an oncoming vehicle.

The lesson being that positioning has to be all about improving visibility and ACTING ON IT.

Having said that I am sure we all ride on autopilot sometimes and just follow the tramlines.

Richard

[trophydave]

The lesson being that positioning has to be all about improving visibility and ACTING ON IT.
Richard

I did my IAM test when I was 19.Most of it has probably long been forgotten but the one thing I remember was the stuff on positioning,vanishing points etc.I do my best to position myself so as to be able to see as far up the road or into side roads etc as possible,without wiping myself out on oncoming traffic,obviously.

[themoudie]

MMMmmmm!

Use the full width of your lane (not sure about straying over centre line as a matter of course), wobbly cyclists with panniers front and rear, scenery gazing are still awful slim.

Slow in, fast out.

Observation to the vanishing point of the road, with a 'fly' look over the hedges as far as you can see.

Confidence, in grip of tyres and effectiveness of brakes. You can read the road, but not have the confidence of taking tyres and brakes to the limit of adhesion and retardation (My weakness, after throwing it away on a diesel 'lubricated' road, 30+ years ago!).

Undertaking, no, just steady progress, but tuck to the left and accelerate clear. Occasionally, they 'wake up'! If it is really quiet, treat as a high speed chicane, four lanes is better than three and helps prevent squared off tyres!!! A wee wave of acknowledgement/indication with the left hand as you pass the right wing often stirs people from their tauper! 

After the inability of local authorities to repair the damage of winter 2009/10 and the extended 10 weeks of permafrost damage up here 2010/11, GO CANNY!   The 'buck passing' of the tw*t from the CONDEM's, whom passes for the Transport Minister on the Radio 4 news programme 'Morning', was laughable if it wasn't so serious (LINK: Potholes, 1:23.00 from beginning of prgramme for ~6 mins.). Please listen and consider! 

Start a new thread if you prefer.

Just be careful when ear 'oling!

Toodle pip, Bill.

[Richard]

Not many folk will agree with me here but I quite appreciate potholes.  My bikes cope well with them and it keeps the oiks away from Mid Wales.  Less race replicas,  more adventure bikes. 

My last car was brilliant with them too.

If I could find a way I would have our local tarmac roads ploughed and all plans to put a motorway into Mid Wales cursed.

<cue moving this to the rants sections>

Richard

[002]

Glad I wasnt the only one !
Like Andy tuned left out of Dragon site pootled along for a while and then had to slow down to snails pace behind sports bike in middle of lane bolt upright around all of the corners.
And like Andy I'm on an outfit with several more behind me all going dead slow.
Did manage to get past eventually,stop for petrol in Betws.And then behind a group doing the same.

I think lack of experiance and common sense !
Have spoken to several Born Agains and Novices and they believe a Track day the way to go to learn to ride properly.
Cant see it myself...not for the road. Something like Bikesafe or other Advanced type courses are specifically for the road and its varying circumstances.

But there again have been riding for years,all year round and done a couple of courses.
Not a weekend warrior with the latest whizzbang thingy,concerned about looking good or like my hero on the race track !

But the Tossers do pay my wages !

Jethro

[guest40]

Good topic, and I did learn something to put to good use.

Steve C222 stated a 750 of the 70's is not a 750 of today, is right on the mark and goes as well for the 250's too.
One of our concerns with the club is to update a newbie reborn rider to a current level while out on rides with us.
It is not only the bike though, but also riding conditions that have changed. More cars and trucks, more congestion, more dickheads that don't indicate lane changes, mobile phonatics that don't care if they are driving in a dangerous manner, speed cameras reducing concentration on riding while concentrating looking for them. Poor road signage and surfaces and government indifference to motorcycles. All these combine to make a sizeable barrier to getting on a bike and reliving the past. Our club also subsidises approved (re)training courses to anyone wanting to improve their skills.

We cringe every time we hear about senior riders being involved in accidents, as we tend to see ourselves in those situations.
We as a whole cannot be complacent about road safety.
Squids (underclothed riders thinking they are invincible) will always use smarty answers and comments when their lack of appropriate clothing is brought up.

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[Steve H]

Personally I believe riding a slow bike helps to improve your lines.

[squirrelciv]

'Tis true, what skills I've got have been learnt the hard way over many years of numptie riding. SteveLs' quite right, go back 30 years and I was an ar5e on a bike. I sometimes look back and wonder how I'm still here. Even now I must admit to a bit of auto-pilot poor riding, never more so than travelling up to the Dragon fully loaded and unable to steer the bike round a corner. Took till the home trip to fully (re)master how to enter/exit a bend and hold road speed.

My view of born-agains has changed somewhat. Good on 'em I say. Sadly we need pleasure riders to drive the bike industry forward as bikes are no longer considered (in the West at least) as utility vehicles. An ar5e on a bike is firstly an ar5e. The bikey bit is insidental. I just hope they 'wise up' quickly for all our sakes.