Club Direction

[Steve H]

Isn't PLI a flat rate per member to MAG? Does it matter if we are an internet club of 50 or a sub-sectioned, commiteed, weekly meetings in the local leisure centre club of 10,000?

Correct its a flat(ish) rate based upon number of members, but what defines a member ? if its someone who pays, and the web-site is completely open what do thay get for their money ?.
The option of making it read-only to non-members is an option, but this may prevent people on the edge contributing at all (Marks comments being a good example). Maybe we have some boards open to members and others open. Any thoughts ?

Steve

[squirrelciv]

lets assume a bike on the stand falls over and breaks someones leg, chances are the injured person will claim against the club for damages. Who is going to pay ?, 

The point is SteveH, If we don't 'do' shows and just turn up, camp and enjoy someone elses, This won't be an issue will it. I'm going to go to Aberdare races on Saturday, might meet some of you lot there, I don't need PLI to go and I'm not banned from talking to anyone from here I meet either. Loads of us meet up at the Dragon most winters (your welcome to join us matey ), we don't need PLI to do that. Infact, if we were so inclined, we would claim against the organisers PLI should anything go wrong.

[Steve H]

The point is SteveH, If we don't 'do' shows and just turn up, camp and enjoy someone elses, This won't be an issue will it. I'm going to go to Aberdare races on Saturday, might meet some of you lot there, I don't need PLI to go and I'm not banned from talking to anyone from here I meet either. Loads of us meet up at the Dragon most winters (your welcome to join us matey ), we don't need PLI to do that. Infact, if we were so inclined, we would claim against the organisers PLI should anything go wrong.

I'm sure your right Pat, but when it comes down to it would I bet my family home on your legal opinion ? I doubt it.

[Richard 003]

The point is SteveH, If we don't 'do' shows and just turn up, camp and enjoy someone elses, This won't be an issue will it. I'm going to go to Aberdare races on Saturday, might meet some of you lot there, I don't need PLI to go and I'm not banned from talking to anyone from here I meet either. Loads of us meet up at the Dragon most winters (your welcome to join us matey ), we don't need PLI to do that. Infact, if we were so inclined, we would claim against the organisers PLI should anything go wrong.

I'm sure your right Pat, but when it comes down to it would I bet my family home on your legal opinion ? I doubt it.

If we book spaces on someone's camp site, or rooms in his pub, then we're the owner's guests the same as anyone else who turns up. The proprietor is the one with PLI. It's not at all the same as organising an event and inviting people to turn up under our aegis, so to speak.

Cheers
Richard

[trophydave]

The small local club I belong to used to arrange a Christmas do every year.One year someone managed to leave their finger in a rapidly closing door,result,chopped off finger.Although the event was organised by our bike club they claimed off the PLI of the venue.

[guest27]

PLI - You are probably all right.  If we all turn up to campsite X for the weekend then their PLI would probably cover us, if my bike fell on someone (jeez there is a thought Rog with a working bike) then my 3rd party or domestic insurance would probably cover it.  If we were to book as the TC and invite people along then possibly we would need PLI.

In there are too many possibilities, probably's etc for my liking.  Some aspects of me are risk adverse and others are not.  How do we indemnify any member of the TC from the fall out of a legal action.  How do we know one of those "No-win-no-fee" pimps will not take on a case against us with the punter paying an insurance on losing.  Would GC have to find the ante even if it came back in expenses from the court, what if it was found in our favour but no expenses awarded, who will stump up the house?  Pat?

The RD500 forum is just that - some of the Yanks meet up for Laguna but here it is web forum only, no need for membership although you can contribute similar to what TC charges for full membership to support the site.  We do - from time to time - meet up.

The pennies it costs for PLI seems a small amount to pay to get rid of all those ifs and buts

R

[robG]

The pennies it costs for PLI seems a small amount to pay to get rid of all those ifs and buts
R

How much is the PLI ?

Exactly how much money are we quibbling about here  ? Has anyone checked ?
It seems we are debating this particular point , without any basis in fact .

If it is a small amount , why hasn't it been paid ?

Whose responsibility is it to pay it ?

How much money is currently in the TC kitty ? Are we too strapped to pay it ?

Just a thought .

Rob .

[Steve H]

On the basis of 100-150 members then MAG affiliation was around £1 a member and the insurance another £2 to £3 per person. If you include others costs such as the hosting etc then £5/year covers it. Which is what was being charged for the internet only membership.
Which takes me back to my earlier question, if we charge this, what incentive is there for people to pay, what do they get for their £5 ?
If people choose not to pay then thats fair enough they wont be covered and thats their problem, but we would need a core of around 100 to pay.

Steve

[niblue]

I'd be more than happy to pay a membership fee for the club, however my main memories of MAG were back when I was a teenager when they were prominently against compulsory helmet laws (which wasn't a stance I agreed with) and I've never really paid much attention to them since.

[Andy M]

Correct its a flat(ish) rate based upon number of members, but what defines a member ? if its someone who pays, and the web-site is completely open what do thay get for their money ?.
The option of making it read-only to non-members is an option, but this may prevent people on the edge contributing at all (Marks comments being a good example). Maybe we have some boards open to members and others open. Any thoughts ?

Steve

A member ,(IMHO), in this case (assuming no subs) is a person who's details we hold. To become a member on a free board you are usually required to give details. This differentiates you from the bloke in the street who offered no acceptance of what you are offering.

In the case of an event, there is usually a fee and hence you've got another of the legs of a legal contract. The other legs (offer, acceptance, legality etc.) will have a "paper" trail on the board even if there is no physical contract. If the message board offers to deliver your message and it does, that's contract complete, you can't sue them when your bike falls off it's stand.

In the case of us deciding to go to Dent, the payment IMHO (and limited legal knowledge) decides who we have the contract with and hence who's PLI we use. If we all go the farm house and pay we've each contracted the farmer. If GC or Steve organises the BBQ and collects the funds and sub-contracts to the farm, their house is on the line if there is no PLI. If another camper comes to join us, then has a bike fall on them, they are the claimant against the farm and the person who's bike it was so long as we didn't sell them a ticket. The clubs PLI would oppose any payment, but the campsites may initially support it to get the club to pay. As an individual, if you had legal cover on your bike insurance they'd help but might be a PITA if they could squirm out by saying it was a club event. In-sewer-ants always beat the individual then try and bully each other, so IMHO it's best to have one on our side that can't squirm too much.

For a free board with no PLI there needs IMHO to be a very serious disclaimer (that all new members need to acknowledge) setting out that what members do based on information exchanged is their own *****y business. This should be a big help regarding GC's house but won't help me if I posted the "let's all go to Llanthony" and bought the first round of pickled eggs. For a board with locked areas and some sort of sub I believe it makes sense to keep the PLI as part of the fee.

Controls on a locked board is a big discussion. Personally I'd suggest read only until we get your details, then maybe a 1 or 3 month free trial, but that's a lot of work to turn off the guys who don't pay (or can it be automated?). It combines the jobs of membership secretary and webmaster unless we can organise a split in work load.

Please note that while I write contracts every day, when they go wrong we get a proper lawyer. We always win and the lawyers usually like what i've written, but I'm not setting myself up as club legal officer. I'm told the wig doesn't suit me  

Andy

[Steve H]

Andy that was useful, thank you.

[Steve H]

I'd be more than happy to pay a membership fee for the club, however my main memories of MAG were back when I was a teenager when they were prominently against compulsory helmet laws (which wasn't a stance I agreed with) and I've never really paid much attention to them since.

Must admit until we joined I was of a similar vein, however in my opinion MAG has moved on a lot. They manage to strike a good balance between professionalism and irreverent(?) opinions.

[guest7]

As Steve said, an internet-only membership fee of £5 covers all costs and MAg affiliation benefits could offset this if you take advantage of them.

As for MAG, we belong to it for the simplie reason that our BMF membership (and associated PLI) turned sour when two members' bikes were stolen at a BMF show and they showed very little concern.

My thoughts on the site structure to support a fee are to keep the forums free to all, but to lock other areas.

Brochures - thumbnails open, details locked
Articles - hmmm... perhaps older ones open and newer ones locked? (sounds like an admin pain so perhaps best if all are open)
Photos - all thumbnail pages open. Photos on current page open but all others locked
Newsletters - menu list open, actual newsletters locked
Links - open
POTD - open
H&S - open
Team Thumper - open

This brings me on to another point. If we want the website side to improve we have to use the resources that the members give us. At the moment stories and short articles are being produced every day on the site. Stories that used to be saved up and sent to the newsletter editor are being sent, instead, via a new thread that may generate 100 views and 10 replies, but then gets kicked back into the archives as new threads supersede it.

I think the moderators should start culling interesting stories for inclusion in the 'Articles' section of the site. It may mean that the moderator has to contact the member who posted the item to get it fleshed out, but this should work. A good example would be to collate some of the fantastic project threads we've had over the last few years.

This is also true for some of the photos that crop up in the forums, we should be copying them over to the photo section.

This approach adds content to the site (which encourages repeat visits from lurkers) and saves some interesting stuff.

And, in case anyone forgets, the main thing is to ride our bikes, have laugh and chat about it afterwards.

GC

[Mark]

Re: PLI and membership.

Is a member the person who uses the forum or is it the person who pays subs.

Again this is 'confused old me' but if subs are paid, you sign up and give your details then you are a member(with a membership number) and you therefore have a hard and fast number of members to cover with PLI.

As for just the users(forum) that do not wish to become paying members and give their details are classified as 'other than member' then no PLI should be necessary.

Then if at a show/rally a members bike falls on someone you're covered, if a none members bike falls on someone then it's someone elses problem.

[Richard 003]

Re: PLI and membership.

Is a member the person who uses the forum or is it the person who pays subs.

Again this is 'confused old me' but if subs are paid, you sign up and give your details then you are a member(with a membership number) and you therefore have a hard and fast number of members to cover with PLI.

As for just the users(forum) that do not wish to become paying members and give their details are classified as 'other than member' then no PLI should be necessary.

Then if at a show/rally a members bike falls on someone you're covered, if a none members bike falls on someone then it's someone elses problem.

And if you have no paid memberships at all, just forum users, then everyone falls into the latter category. If you have an open forum and website, with no hoops to jump through to see the juicy bits, or fees to pay for dubious or uncertain privileges, you'll get a lot more interest and a lot more particpants, who will make contact with each other and meet up. To paraphrase the Bible - "where one or two are gathered in its name, there is the Thumper Club" ;-)

The PLI thing seems irrelevant to what TC people do for most of the year - it's just sounding to me like a bit of a red herring, and an obstacle to progress.

To get more participants, you need to make it freer and easier, not complicated and restrictive.

Just my 2 euro worth.

Cheers
Richard