Author Topic: More Neurology on Radio 4  (Read 980 times)

guest7

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More Neurology on Radio 4
« on: March 04, 2009, 11:33:04 PM »
One programme this week was discussing how computers can 'learn' to play games like chess and backgammon. IBM built a machine that could beat Kasparov in a game of chess, but it required a massive amount of cooling technology just to keep it running as it worked through thousands of pre-progammed move scenarios a second, They made the point that Kasparov hardly raised a sweat.. and the computer only just managed to beat him.

This prompted a scientist to muse on how Kasparov's mind worked whilst he played and how he had developed such a grasp of the complexities of the game. He reasoned that the sheer repitition of playing the game over the years had trained Kasparov's mind to work as well as a multi-million dollar computer.

Taking this idea he wrote a computer program that could learn from being beaten at a game (they chose backgammon as the test game). The computer endlessly played games of backgammon for a very long time, learning from its defeats until it got to the point where it was held to be unbeatable.

The programme implied that our minds work in this way too and this made me wonder about some of the things we motorcyclists do when we ride. When we ride we have to contend with weather conditions, various surfaces and an endless variety of driving behaviours on the part of other road users. Experience and repitition make us able to deal with this and ride safely. More to the point, I pondered on how I ride in heavy fast traffic. I grew up riding in a city and I have always been faster than many other riders through heavy traffic. When I am doing this I have always been aware that I (and all of us I'm sure) don't have a fixed point of concentration. It's a bit like my mind is taking in lots of stuff around me and I only get alerted to what is important at that moment. To do this your mind needs to know what a movement, shape or action implies and this can only be 'learned' through repitition (and, more painfully, mistakes).

I'm not saying I have a Kasparovian level of mastery over my riding, but I'm sure that some of the same things are going on.

The programme also discussed the case of the Royal Navy radar operator who, during Operation Desert Storm, saved a US battleship because of the fluctuations of a few Dopamine neurons. He had been seeing the blips of returning US air planes for weeks, but one morning he saw an identical blip on his screen and, although he didn't know why, it scared him. The blip was heading directly towards a US aircraft carrier on the exactly the same course as the planes took. Trusting his instinct he ordered two missiles to be launched. Only later did he discover that he had been right and the blip was a missile, not a US plane. For a long time nobody could work out what he had seen that would make him think the blip was any different to those he routinely saw on his screen... there was no difference. Eventually somebody worked out that the blip had first appeared on the screen in a slightly differnet way to an aircraft blip. The operator's experience meant that his mind registered a difference even when he consciously could not.

Interesting thing, your bonce.  ;)

GC

guest7

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Re: More Neurology on Radio 4
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2009, 11:40:43 PM »
And...

another good moment on R4 yesterday was Heston Blumenthal talking about his latest TV show. Apparently in one episode they cook a pig. Nothing odd about that.

However, he proposed cooking a whole pig in a plastic bag. Hmmmm, getting interesting.

They found a way of getting a whole pig into a sealable plastic bag without too much trouble, but then they had to find a way to cook it in hot water.

The genius move was to approach a hot tub company and ask to use one of their tubs, but with the temperature limiters removed.

He's quite mad, but he made me laugh out loud more than once during the interview. A dead pig in a hot tub... inspired

GC

steveD

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Re: More Neurology on Radio 4
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2009, 08:31:26 AM »
You're not too busy then!
If I'm not working I'll be away on my bike camping!

Andy M

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Re: More Neurology on Radio 4
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2009, 08:55:24 AM »
Old Heston seems rather keen on boil in the bag. Came up with the same solution for making Little Thief scrambled egg look a bit less like fish tank sludge.

Any mention of his restaurant. He closed it down a couple of weeks back after 20-odd people went sick. The enviromental health people were stumped, but I was thinking they've probably yet to meet a salmonella bug or something that thrives in an enviroment of warm fried egg and saurkraut ice cream  :P

Andy

guest7

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Re: More Neurology on Radio 4
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2009, 09:04:04 AM »
They interviewed him just prior to the closure, but the did say afterwards that he intends re-opening the restaurant (voted the best in Europe for goodness sake) later this week.

I thought he came across as a good bloke, he didn't seem to have any 'front' at all, even confessing that his food treat is a shop-bought prawn C***tail eaten from the plastic tub.

I don't do recipe book cooking as a rule. I can cook reasonably well, but I have a streak of laziness that means if the recipe entails going out and buying lots of unfamiliar and expensive ingredients then I don't bother. I should make more of an effort.

Steve - yes, very busy, but the radio goes on at the start of the job and stays on. Because it's a painting week I get to listen all day. This week I'm working in a million quid house with unlimited access to their stupendously expensive coffee machine, hard life eh?

Oh, and if we're talking about the easy life, I suppose I should confess all now, I'm having a biking holiday for four weeks to stagger the renewal dates for my bike insurance and the insurance I just took out for my... v...va...van (there! I've said it!). It's an M-reg Ford Escort van, MOT'd until October, Taxed until the end of April, £400.

GC

guest27

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Re: More Neurology on Radio 4
« Reply #5 on: March 05, 2009, 11:45:19 AM »
The brain is a wonderful thing and it galls me a little (lot) when people (not GC) who should know better seek to identify the workings of the brain (complex adaptive system) with the workings of a computer - even in parallel processing mode is still not that adaptive, not really complex and pretty certainly not a system.  The brain is capable of itterative jumps, linear process a bit and then leap to a new point, it processes things in many different ways, and can even exhibit feed-forward (as can your body) where it is able to react to a stimulus before the stimulus has really occured (explained that really badly) -an instance of this would be Rossi riding his bike and being able to react to a situation faster than the nerves can carry the message from Mk1 arse to brain that rear is going to let go and Mk1 brain telling Mk1 right wrist to ease a little.  According to The Boss who is a bit of an expert on such things, no one has really explained how it is done - personally I think it is because the body is itself a complex adaptive system and we are fools to reduce it to its bits. So top class chess players do not have to build up to boiling point - because unlike the computer - they are actually intelligent!

There was something some time ago - R4? New Scientist? Horizon? cannot remember about the way different people think - and apparently we are all on a spectrum from totally focussed - see the bunny and nothing else, through to a real Fothrington-Thomas (for you Molsworth fans) approach - hello birds, hello sky, hello bunny etc - and the different ways of thinking deliver different abilities.

Men tend to be the more focussed - think of one thing but think it really deep, women tend to be the think of 10 things, but none of them particulaly deeply.  This all fits with hunter-gatherer (which we are still in evolutionary terms) where the women tended to look after the brats, collect berries and look out for bears - multiple threads which do not need deep concentration, where as men were hunting - focus on the bunny - focus on the hunt cos unlike a berry, bunnies run away and leave you hungry. 

Learning from mistakes - guess it is the only way you know that something will not work on that occasion.

R

guest7

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Re: More Neurology on Radio 4
« Reply #6 on: March 05, 2009, 04:46:30 PM »
Interesting stuff and with a neat link to a previous thread, is this fully-focused thing the reason for this statement from Andy M?


There are bikes on the Crossbow calender?

My mind must have been elsewhere  :-[

Andy

 :)
GC

guest295

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Re: More Neurology on Radio 4
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2009, 08:36:13 AM »
The objective of Artificial Intelligence programmes was and is to extract large amounts of money from Defence budgets. It works, of course, because military types have no idea how brains OR computers work. The arguments for AI in the journals are written by people who are completely ignorant about at least one of the above, and what intelligence is. Of course it's possible to build a computer that plays chess well: it's a game with fixed rules, perfect for computers. But a computer to hunt a bunny in the woods economically or properly care for a child? Forget it!