Deisel - Veg Oil debate

[andy230]

Hello, sorry to re-visit this.

I'm going up to stafford this weekend.  I plan to try to prove a point by running on a 50/50 mix of diesel and vegetable oil (or rape seed oil).  ie. No separate tanks

I figure 37p compared to 93p for a litre of deseil is quite tempting.

Can anyone see any reason why I will incur great expense and/or not make it to Stafford???

I'll try it when I get to reserve (about 5-7L left).  Then I'll put in 5-10L of veg oil.

If the job is NOT a good un, I'll top up to a full tank with deisel.  This should dilute impurities such that it will run.

Am I chancing it?  Will check my fuelpump first (please be a bosch!)

And when I get to stafford, I plan to discuss at length my garage-power dilemma.

Do I shell out for a solar panel to help charge my 12v battery powering the garage??  Do I buy a "cyclic" battery?  Better than  a genny??

Any advice on either topic appreciated.  Email me off-list if this is simply too boring!!

Cheers, lookin forward to the weekend,

a

[J Hop]

Do it, it will take more than 1 fill up to do any damage (plus you only trying 50/50).

During the petrol crisis a couple of years ago,(I later found out)that my old man ran his bedford rascal by strapping a propane bottle to the passanger seat and poking the rubber hose under the seat and into the carb inlet. Didn't run too well, was a bit gutless, but it did run. Doesn't sound too safe to me, but people his age were born before health and safety were invented.

[Steve H]

I cant find anything which indicates whether your engine is direct or indirect injection. If its really noisy on tickover then its possibly direct injection (the old maestro and montego diesels were direct injection). I have a couple of post which suggest a twin tank system is required with direct injection, not sure why. Apparently if you see white smoke then all is not well. If it were me I would experiment on shorter runs. The RAC will not recover a vehicle which has been fuelled incorrectly (i.e. petrol in a diesel) so dont rely on being recovered.

[002]

Guy I work with runs his derv(diesel engined road vehicle)on a mix with no problem !
A trip to ASDA to purchase large container of cooking oil,10 or 20 liters at a time.
Straight into tank and top up with derv.
He has done this with a Discovery 200TDI and with his Mitsubushi,and no problems to date.

Another Lad I know did the same with an old Peugeot 205 and again an early Disco.Again no problems.
This Lad now buys the proper stuff now....Recycled Veggie oil,of course it is filtered and has various additives so that it works properly.
No modifications,extra tanks,trickery or alchemy,straight into tank and the smell of a chip shop as a by-product !

See yous Friday.

Jethro

[squirrelciv]

Go for it, if nothing else you'll provide mirth for the rest of us :-)

[Steve H]

I had a quick look around at various sites. Seems that Lucas pumps have a habit of breaking on startup when thay have cold vegetable oil in them. One solution is a two tank system that allows you start/stop the engine on diesel but run on pre-heated vegetable oil. This means remembering to switch over to diesel before stopping. My guess is I would forget at some point and mess the pump up.
I may try and find a Bosch pump for my engine (peugeot/citroen XUD) , and swap it over, but I suspect I will never get round to it.

[andy230]

My worry is about the turbo...

Is the Pug's 2.5 turbo (as used in the LDV 400) lubricated by diesel doees anyone know??

I phoned the guy I bought it from last night.  He said he'd looked into it, but decided against because of the turbo.  But he couldn't quite justify (it was a coupla years ago)! 

However, he is even tighter than me so if he could have, he'd have done it. 

Will get on the phone to LDV today, but can't imagine they'd endose such action!!

Will check the pump tonight, then maybe drive to the supermarket for some veggie oil.

Hope to see you at Stafford!!!!!

a

[Andy M]

The clever people working on this seem to have two issues. On start up the veg oil doesn't vaporise too well, so they heat it. The alternative is to start on Diesel, warm up, then switch but they don't like this idea as they want 1 fuel. The second thing they change is the timing, but from the conversation I had I think that's more to do with getting power, fuel consumption and emissions at a normal Diesel level. These boys are selling the vehicles, so they want only gains. I think their system was helping the starting via the timing too, the engine revved after a cold start like a petrol on the choke. My involvement was limited to sorting the brakes, so I'm only passing on a brief conversation. I think the chuck it in approach (if it works without wrecking a Lucas pump) will result in harder starting, less power and shorter range. The question is, by how much?

Carry a can of pure Diesel and spare battery/jump leads?

Andy

[GB500nz]

Fuel doesn't get anywhere near the turbo--it's lubricated by engine oil.

[Steve H]

My worry is about the turbo...

Andy, I have not read anything with regard to turbo problems. The only thing I can think of is that any oil seals may swell because of the vegetable content (but its such a harsh enviroment any rubber will struggle so it must be pretty durable). Also any veg residue in the exhaust caould damage the turbo, again unlikely.
I did read one post by a guy stating that his inlet manifold on his turbo had been cleaned up by the use of veg oil (Turbos often use EGR which pumps exhaust gasses into the inlet manifold and chokes them up)
The worst you can do is shag the pump, but you will be looking at £200-400 rebuild costs plus the labour, or a second hand pump plus labour (unless you have a diesel timing kit).

[andy230]

Ha!  The UCL Boffin Network:

http://www.mecheng.ucl.ac.uk/research/thermofluids/ic-engines/?p=overview

Hope you can access this; these will be the boys to ask.   Have email'd Prof, will let you know what he says.  I am hoping my UCL Post Doc position will give him the urge to reply!  I mean, if the area of expertise is on your doorsetep, then why not use it??

Cheers

a

[J Hop]

Remember a long time ago Top Gear ran a feature on veg oil etc, pretty sure the 'expert' interviewed used a 97% veg oil / 3% white spirit mixture. (To thin the oil down a little). I seem to remember something about him using a specific type of white spirit so he didn't have to pay tax on it.......Tightwad ;-)

[john g]

Hi Andy, with regards to the 12 volt battery, I use a large h/d leasure battery in my camper (not charged by the eng) to supply all the 12v stuff in the back & have used it quite a lot recently running it down quite a lot (down to 8/9 volts at times) & it was becoming a pain to keep charging it from the house power so I tried a solar power trickle charger (about 18 Inches by 5 inches) which I leave permanently connected to the battery (this was purchased from my local caravan dealers for £19) & I found that every time i go to use the battery, it has a FULL charge so long as it has been left for a day or two. I have found this item to be very useful (I am going to buy another one & fit it to the camper battery)  ps. it works just as well even when total cloud cover!
Worth trying for little money?

[andy230]

Hi John-

Very interesting.  I have one in the ambulance to keep the battery topped up.  But I had thought that the 200mA it generates was so little that it wasn't worth it...

But I'll stick the wee panel on the roof (its about the size of a big evelope) and see how it goes...

Cheers!

a