Chair Questions....

[guest18]

Ok Transalp John and I are going to do the Elefant not next year (work is looking like getting in the way in a serious manner) but the year after, yes 2010 
So the thought has begun and we were thinking it could be good to both go on the one outfit (half the fuel bill, the option to sleep/get out of the wind etc for some of the trip etc etc)

So I wondered what the collective opinion of the TC Chairborne warriors is...

Is a 500 XBR outfit up to dragging two blokes and luggage across Europe?
Would a 650 lump be significantly better?
Is this plan the ravings of lunatics? (and therefore perfectly normal when you put it in the context of the Elefanten  )

Also, having had a sit in the squire chair tonight... it is *small*! (and there is *no* protection from a bumo or whatever  ) I wonder if it is *too* small and I should perhaps be looking at trying to track down one like GC's? (with a nice protective perimeter bar into the bargain)... or is that too heavy with a passenger 
I've probably got a year and a half to sort things out, but it all has to be cheap enough to make Andy blush 

What's the thoughts guys? and who else is committing to go!?!?! (save a tenner a month and you're most of the way there  )

[guest7]

Get ourself a complete outfit from Ebay, that's how to save money.

You'll need a bigger chair than you've got and (I hate to say it) more than one cylinder.

GC

[guest18]

Hmmm doesn't work, I need the 50mpg!! (the chair was packed to the gunnels last time with heavy stuff I didn't use and cruising at 60ish I was still getting good economy... and it's on the standard gearing just now  )
If I lose 5 to 8 stone of crap, add twelve stone of passenger and drop a tooth on the sproket surely I'll get away with that 

Buying another outfit is out just now... although I've always fancied a dnepr/whatever if anyone wants a swap!!

[guest7]

You're getting 50mpg because your chair is so light. Get a bigger chair and you will need more fuel to drag it around.

The other argument is to use a bike with sufficient torque and power so that the addition of the chair doesn't increase the MPG figure excessively.

Of course we all know that the ideal tug is a Beemer airhead.

GC

[guest18]

Of course we all know that the ideal tug is a Beemer airhead.

GC

We do?
... this isn't because you have an airhead BMW and a Ural sidecar chassis for sale is it 

[themoudie]

GC 'd flog sweetbreads to castrated dogs given half a chance!

[guest18]

GC 'd flog sweetbreads to castrated dogs given half a chance!

Possibly... but I was only teasing... unless you want to swap?! 

[jules]

hi smudge,just remind me how big is transalp john,his size must be taken into consideration when thinking of a chair,where is your luggage going to be,on the bike and in/on the chair,if you are going to do this rally two up with a chair no matter what the bike forget about mpg,if you want to do it on a 650 single be prepared to do it slowly.

[Andy M]

The Bonneville has a supposed 60 hp, will lug the heavy/square Ural chair about at 65 mph all day, maxes out with 85 on the GPS and turns in 45 mpg/140 miles range if you cruise with the trucks. The Sidecar is comfy enough for an adult passenger up to the fuel range and the boot/rack/pannier options would allow Elefant levels of gear to be lugged. All in all a fair BMW substitute!

My BMW R1100R, 80 hp, with the tiny plastic Meteor chair cruised at 70, topped out at 101, did 41 mpg/130 miles.

My Ural outfit, 36 hp on a good day, cruised at 45, topped out at 65, did 36 mpg and usually blew up before the tank was empty   Seriously, if you look at Urals make sure it's a 750 built after 2005, or its been owned by Tim for at least 10 years.

The big thing with outfits and range is the nut on the throttle. I can drop 10 mpg by going with the cars instead of the trucks  

I'd say an XB type outfit would do the job, but is going to be slow. You have roughly 600 miles to do from your chosen port to the rally. If your outfit is cramped, lacks electrical power for heated kit and as a result you stop every 50 miles and average 30 mph, that's 20 plus hours in the saddle or over 2 days if the weather is bad. I doubt you'll sleep in the chair while it's moving, but two drivers will probably give you a few extra hours. Average 45 (that's what the Bonnevilles average was at the Dragon/Llanthoney according to the GPS) and you have two easy days and might well make it in one. If you are Mr. Morgan you can knock it off in 16 hours and still have the energy to ride up a ski-slope  . The thing is, the extra fuel a BM/Bonneville/Diversion type outfit will use is more than paid for in the hotel/food/beer if you use an extra day or two. Petrol despite evidence to the contrary is still quite cheap, a hotel room's worth is a lot of miles unless you are dead on your feet.

I'd totally agree with buying a complete outfit off e-bay. The Ural/Bonneville set up cost me something in the region of £2.5K to get to where it is now. If I had garage space I could have bought a decent enough outfit complete and still had the Bonneville as a solo. The price of a few new fittings and some wiring alone will make the purchase of a complete outfit probably cheaper, especially if you sort it and advertise as "6 months MOT, just did 1500 mile trip" when you get back.

Don't underestimate the amount of kit and what it'll weigh. You need two army sleeping bags, four sleep mats etc. In 2004 I filled a Ural body and a Touratech box with the wrong kit and was cold. I think now I could be warm with a Ural bodies worth of the right gear, but that does rather make a passenger a problem. I'd also worry about how warm you'd be in the chair, sitting still in a cramped space isn't good for the circulation and you'll have to share what electrical power you have. Sorry if I'm raining on your parade.

I'm plotting an attempt for 2009 or 2010. As this involves getting a new job, paying for the wedding, having enough left over for a decent honeymoon and then raising the trip money I'm not holding my breath  

Andy

[Steve Lake]

Well.....when i was a nipper the only transport we had was an outfit, a lovingly restored Sunbeam 600cc (1937) single, onto which was bolted a double adult chair, and we toured everywhere with it, me on the pillion, me mum  and sister in the chair AND the luggage strapped on all over the place....I remember touring scotland....the lake district and the west country....ok not at any great speed....and fuel economy wasn't an issue.

is there still a yoof hostel at the top of llanberis?

hell.....i remember it made it over all the great passes, llanberis (ok...i spelt it wrong!) hardknott, wrynose...I remember we followed a guy over hardknott driving his morris oxford up in reverse gear as first was too high to get going......would have been 1956...happy days

Wierd isn't it.......reading the above, its dawned on me that Dads 'old' sunbeams (he had 4) weren't as 'old' as my SRX's are now.....just seemed that way...probably because it had girder forks and rigid rear end and appeared to be (and was) from a different era.

[guest18]

Ok gents, all good stuff Don't worry about raining on my parade, all good info is worth hearing!
So the concencus is:

Buying a complete outfit from ebay is a good idea
60hp+ is about right
We need a good sized (Ural sized) chair pref with a screen
Bike needs a handlebar fairing as minimum
Needs a decent alternator and pref a car battery
Agreed so far??
(I can sort heated grips, heated chair seat etc no probs  )

So...

What do the resident experts reckon the going rate is for a useable/saveable outfit on ebay?
What is the opinion on BMW engine conversions for Dnepr/Ural/Cossack? How difficult? Worthwhile? Sensible?

As to luggage we are both fairly experienced at packing small/light, some say obsessive  and last time we were warm with one to two panniers worth of warm kit each  But then we don't mind slumming it in some areas! (You do need the *right* kit though!)

Thanks GC Jules Andy, Steve for the input so far though, very useful and interesting

ps, John is... a "robust" citizen! So probably wouldn't fit comfortably in the tiny chair on the XBR just now...

[Andy M]

Only thing on right now is a Jawa that looks nice but is too small (no bids at £200), a scooter thats silly money and is too small and a Ural M72 that you'd need to fix, MOT and prove was pre-1981 before you could even drive it 

I'd work on a £2000 investment (a lot I know) for something BMW airhead R/K, Diversion, Moto-Guzzi, Japanese tourer type thing in decent mechanical nick but cosmetically challenged. I call it an investment as prices seem quite stable, so set it up as a winter ride (new tyres etc.), MOT it and flog it at the start of the spring season and I'd guess you'd have a chance to see most of your money again.

Well done BMW-Ural's seem to work, but IMHO all you gain for keeping the horrible Russian gearbox is the reverse gear. Why not just take a pukka beamer and put a chair on it, buy one with a chair etc? This way the gearbox is oil tight, has roughly the right ratio's for the motorway and doesn't have bearings that are likely to try and sneak out the drain hole. OTOH if you are getting into machineing the two casings so they bolt together why not just strip a Ural, replace the rubbish bits and make it work like it should have done on day one? Urals seem to work if you've got the time and cash to do them right.  If you had a ****y Ural and a spare BMW engine I can see the attraction, but I don't think it's something I'd aim for. The thing with Urals I seem to notice is that a lot of people get them for the looks (seller on e-bay sounds like an antiques dealer), as substitute classics/mechano kits or on a whim (guilty as charged) which means the second hand usefulness as transport must vary massively. Add to that a BMW engine that was either done in a custom shop or had an angle grinder taken to it and I'd want a year or three for shakedown before an Elefant 

Andy

[guest18]

Hmmm interesting, the reasons for considering a ruski outfit are in no particular order:

Cheap,
Available,
Designed for a chair so no extra cost hassle getting it to steer well (leading link forks as far as I can tell are 1, a good thing and 2, hideously expensive!)
Yeah, I'll admit it, looks! (who hasn't watched Great Escape/Where Eagles Dare and not fancied one?)
Just wondered about BMW engines as a response to the general unreliability, if you're having to machine casings to make one fit it starts to get a bit silly, (like airhead prices  )
I assume a complete BMW engine and box isn't a bolt in either 

I saw the M72, isn't that the sidevalve with an even worse reputation than the ohv one? If I were bad I could always combine it with a frame/v5 from another source.... of course I'm not bad so I wouldn't!! 

£2k is unfortunately way too much money for me to risk on a temporary toy  even if I managed to sell the XBR for say £500 I'd still need to find £1500 before I even start to save for ferry/fuel/beer etc etc it's just too much of a gamble to get to the selling time and find it doesn't, or (god forbid) have a shunt and have the assessor write it off at a book of £500 or whatever they think they can squeeze you down to, minus excess and plus the obligatory 6 month wait (if you use a lawyer to hurry them up    )

On the plus side I have time in hand and good mechanical ability! It's just the folding that is (as usual) lacking 

[guest7]

Last year Tim bought an old XJ900 outfit with large covered chair (a smaller version of Jethro's if you can remember that) and leading links for £900

Jethro sold his newer 900 Diversion with large chair, links, 15"rear wheel for less than £1600 IIRC.

GC

[guest18]

Getting better 
I still reckon the XBR would manage a (slightly) bigger chair and a passenger with slightly lowered gearing and possibly a 600 barrel / piston for a bit more torque...
After all, look at the amount of lard the russian / chinese tugs haul around on 30hp ish ish (and I know my 500 makes that sort of power because it was dynoed out of curiosity  )
Ok the cruising speed would probably be down to 50mph-ish but still.... it could save us £1k upwards and that's a s**tload of fuel/b&b/motorway food etc etc...

Of course a larger bike/chair would be better.... but we will have to see how the saving goes

Incidentally, good news tonight, the outfit has been fired up again and I managed to unsieze the fuel filler  and I reckon with a new front indicator, a sand down of the front disc (badly rusted) and a fresh tyre on the chair it's close to mot ready! 
Doubt the downpipes are going to last much longer though so I'd better get it in soon lol

edited to add, tried running the engine against the brake and there was no sign of it dying against a (small) load so fingers crossed the replacement carb is playing too....)