Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: themoudie on February 26, 2017, 10:18:00 PM
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With a query from LoCo about modifying an XT in the 'Technical' board and the ongoing posts from Joolz and Ellwood, I thought this site might interest and give food for thought too others! :)
Elsberg-tuning_dk (http://www.elsberg-tuning.dk/supercharging.html)
If you are interested in V8's, then have a wee look on the site in the "Cars" section! ;D ;D ;D
My regards, Bill
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And this is just pure 'Thumper' pawn!!!!! ;D ;D ;D 8)
Falcone_Compressore_500cc (http://www.bikeexif.com/motorcycle-supercharger)
Bill
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Bloomin heck Bill! And by pure coincidence, I've just adv my Nuovo Falcone on Done deal tonight ;)
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Some good stuff there :)
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Thanks, Bill, I found it very interesting as I had no idea how a supercharger worked. But even so, I'd never have thought they'd be found on small engines. To think, I could've had one on my SS50 and maybe seen off Michael's SS80!
Google reveals one for the shallow of pocket/diy fans;
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ELECTRIC-TURBO-SUPERCHARGER-KIT-UNIVERSAL-FIT-For-Motorcycle-/252716403280?hash=item3ad7124a50:g:jzQAAOSwLnBX2SEB
And one for those who prefer it to come incorporated into a complete package from the factory. Lots of description here on how this supercharger works on the bike which has
specially adapted inner wheel rim surfaces to counter tyre creep under extreme acceleration! Might use the ol' full face on this one!
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/bike-reviews/kawasaki/ninja-h2r/2015/
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i think that vw have whats possibly the cleverest system. superchargers deliver boost from tickover, but sap power, or to be precise, they use engine power to provide boost, turbos use essentially wasted power to provide boost by utilising the exhausted gas, however turbos normally can be a struggle to get power from at low revs, and if you get one that delivers at low engine speeds, then its too small to be much good at high engine speeds, and visa-versa. the vw system has a supercharger that is driven by the engine at low speed, but it has an electronic centrifugal clutch built in so that when engine speed rises above a certain level it disengages and as such doesnt sap any engine power, at the same time, the turbo is spinning away in the exhaust and as soon as there is enough boost then it is utilised to provide the engine with boost. effectively its the best of both worlds, supercharger grunt and turbo power. i imagine its a plumbers nightmare of pipes and wires that are best hidden under a bonnet.
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Blimey can't believe I've been mentioned in the last two posts "a plumbers nightmare" ah that all depends on how good the "plumber" is 😉😉🚽🛁🔧......and secondly "blow off Michael's SS80" .......not a chance Matt, 😉😉😉😁 used to blow off fizzies that thing. Brilliant at 16years old I gotta say. Cheers, Michael
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http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/ridden-peugeot-jetforce-compressor-review/ar-BB8fOmz
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In reply to mthee's post, dont even think about buying one of those electric superchargers from ebay, they are totally useless on any size engine, they are pretty close to being fraudulant. I have only seen one company that make an electric supercharger that works, and that had 3 starter mortor size electric motors to run it, even then it was only to be used as an occasional boost as the battery would run down after about 30 seconds.
There are only 2 options, drive it from the engine or drive it from the exhaust
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My favourite bit on that ad is their disclaimer;
"We take no responsibility in teaching you how to install. Professional installation is strongly recommended."
Yeah, right! If you can get the professional installer to stop laughing for long enough! Unless the professional installer has a really warped sense of humour, in which case he might just install it for you :o
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This is a 1940's idea
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3905/32359610403_43bbc93221.jpg)
The hump in the bottom of the Lancaster derivative contains a fifth Rolls Royce Merlin. This drives a roots blower of large proportions, whose output is directed into the carburettors of another 4 on the wings. A true plumbers nightmare, fortunately overtaken by common sense and the jet age.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_684
Maybe try a C90 motor blowing your XBR?
Andy
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Wow! That really puts it all into perspective!
I'm off to see if I've sufficient cable ties to mount the C90 engine...
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i thought that the spitfire merlin engines had a supercharger on them anyway?
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Stepped piston?
Then there's the guy who turned his Ducati rear cylinder into a compressor. I applaud him, although I can't help thinking that the rear piston would be put to better use with explosions going on above it. ;D
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i thought that the spitfire merlin engines had a supercharger on them anyway?
They did.
Aircraft superchargers were about getting low altitude power at high altitude. The slave engine had a supercharger as well as driving one. The big blower fed air into the others as though at 20000 feet at 40000. The result is an aircraft with enough power to go to 50000 feet instead of running out of power at 22000.
Andy
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And this is just pure 'Thumper' pawn!!!!! ;D ;D ;D 8)
Falcone_Compressore_500cc (http://www.bikeexif.com/motorcycle-supercharger)
Bill
i saw that bike in veenendaal classic races a few years ago,
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j360/roudeleiw-uk/P4110146_zps701bd30b.jpg) (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/roudeleiw-uk/media/P4110146_zps701bd30b.jpg.html)
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i thought that the spitfire merlin engines had a supercharger on them anyway?
They did.
Aircraft superchargers were about getting low altitude power at high altitude. The slave engine had a supercharger as well as driving one. The big blower fed air into the others as though at 20000 feet at 40000. The result is an aircraft with enough power to go to 50000 feet instead of running out of power at 22000.
Andy
Interesting.
I know next to nothing about aircraft but one might assume that as you get higher, because there is lower air density, you'd need less power to move through it. But I guess maybe there's also less of the stuff holding you up! So maybe you have to move faster (airspeed) just to stay up there? Is that how it works?
The rate at which you overcome gravity (climb rate) will presumably affect how much power you need as well, but if you're prepared to take your time you can do it on less power?
Cheers
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This is a 1940's idea
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3905/32359610403_43bbc93221.jpg)
The hump in the bottom of the Lancaster derivative contains a fifth Rolls Royce Merlin. This drives a roots blower of large proportions, whose output is directed into the carburettors of another 4 on the wings. A true plumbers nightmare, fortunately overtaken by common sense and the jet age.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_684
Maybe try a C90 motor blowing your XBR?
Andy
Met a gent today who used to be in the RAF and showed him this pic and discussion. He said he'd worked on the guns on a Lancaster for BBM day. His last role before leaving was involved with ejector seats - 0-62mph in 0.3 secs, generating 20G's. He said they used an explosive charge to get going! Glad to have him sorting out my son's specialised seating :)
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This is a 1940's idea
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3905/32359610403_43bbc93221.jpg)
The hump in the bottom of the Lancaster derivative contains a fifth Rolls Royce Merlin. This drives a roots blower of large proportions, whose output is directed into the carburettors of another 4 on the wings. A true plumbers nightmare, fortunately overtaken by common sense and the jet age.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_684
Maybe try a C90 motor blowing your XBR?
Andy
Met a gent today who used to be in the RAF and showed him this pic and discussion. He said he'd worked on the guns on a Lancaster for BBM day. His last role before leaving was involved with ejector seats - 0-62mph in 0.3 secs, generating 20G's. He said they used an explosive charge to get going! Glad to have him sorting out my son's specialised seating :)
The De Havilland Mosquito had 2 supercharged Rolls Royce Merlin engine in a plane made mostly of Balsa and plywood! that's why it was the fastest thing in the skies up until the very end of WWII when the Germans developed the ME262 jet fighter.
Amazing plane the Mosquito - very much an unsung hero as it was the worlds first multi roll plane - bomber, fighter, reconnaissance and U-boat killer and also the worlds first stealth plane (sort of).
(http://autowpaper.com/images/de-havilland-mosquito-1.jpg)
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If you take an Enfield Bullet to Everest base camp you'll end up pushing it up the hills.
At sea level you'll be getting the full 18 HP with a main jet designed to give a mixture fractionally richer than the 14:1 stochiometric set up, the chemical formula that results in all the hydrogens and carbons in the petrol reacting with the oxygens in the air to give water and carbon dioxide and monoxide. At a few thousand feet the air is thinner, less O2 in a given volume so you change the jet for a smaller one. The flow / volume you can get in 498 cc's is fixed, so you get less HP. If you can cram in twice the volume of air to the same amount of petrol and keep tge jetting, you get the power back.
Andy
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Brilliantly explained.....in a way we mere mortals can understand...🛩🛩.thanks Andy
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Mass flow rate?
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Now you are getting beyond what a brake engineer has picked up from "the enemy"!
FI (as used by the dastardly hun) saves changing jets, but can still only drop the petrol to match the air. Having denser air by blower and intercooler gives it more options.
They also have drag as an important factor. A nice big air scoop as they had on the Typhoon and Mustang gives you air compressed by the forward motion, but it is a robbing Peter to pay Paul sort of set up. It alway amazed me at the lengths they eventually went to. The Sea Hornet, the lighter weight single seat Mosquito derivative had two stage (double impellor), two speed (driven by a gearbox at 10000 rpm) superchargers and the radiators burried in the wing.
After that they went Turbo-Compound; add fuel to a turbo charger exhaust flow side to make a sort of jet cum afterburner cum extra power compressor driver. They often caught fire!
The other interesting bit of Merlin technology was the exhausts. Fishtail pipes crossed over the block gave 10 mph extra. If the speed ratios to speed or power, that might be a whole 1 mph on a bike!
Andy
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Very interesting stuff Andy.
I'm glad you mentioned the turbo compound types as I could have sworn I read about them as a kid in the days when I'd go to the city library once a week. I was beginning to think I'd imagined it.
The point I was making re mass flow is that it is the mass of air that is trapped in the combustion chamber that counts, which is exactly what you're saying. No?
I suppose the number of atoms ultimately?
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What about the ultimate Merlin conversion the RR Crecy 2 stroke supercharged sleeve valved engine, designed as a sprint interceptor, they were going to put it in a Spitfire but eventually calculated it would tear the airframe apart, 5000+ hp plus almost 600lbs of thrust just from the exhausts.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Crecy
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What about the ultimate Merlin conversion the RR Crecy 2 stroke supercharged sleeve valved engine, designed as a sprint interceptor, they were going to put it in a Spitfire but eventually calculated it would tear the airframe apart, 5000+ hp plus almost 600lbs of thrust just from the exhausts.... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_Crecy
Hee hee.
What sort of thrust does 5000hp translate to at the prop?
Incidentally my "avatar" name is nothing to do with aircraft. Not directly anyhow.
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Fascinating stuff this. You just don't get this quality of thread on other forums. ;D
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The point I was making re mass flow is that it is the mass of air that is trapped in the combustion chamber that counts, which is exactly what you're saying. No?
I suppose the number of atoms ultimately?
Yes exactly, thin air has less mass and fewer atoms in a set volume, so less "reactive".
That Crecy 2-smoke (albiet without the smoke oil) is bonkers. 2000 Hp made propeller fighters almost supersonic, something that made the tail planes fall off. They took off on half throttle as otherwise the torque rolled them over (hence contra-rotating on the later and naval ones). Turning hard made G forces that knock you out. The plan must have been something like the ME-163, missile with a man in it, get up there before its too late sort of thing.
The quality of threads on here varies. I bet I can reduce the level of this one with half a dozen words;
Landrover, Weather presenter, camping stove, discuss
;D
Andy
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The quality of threads on here varies. I bet I can reduce the level of this one with half a dozen words;
Landrover, Weather presenter, camping stove, discuss
;D
Andy
;D ;D ;D
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and the griffon (latterly used in spitfires) had a 2 stage supercharger .. as used on the shackleton running 2 contrarotating 3 blade props... (also used on the Fairey Gannet but superceded with a turboprop), ... sorry... showin :(g my age
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Give a bloke a chance - I haven't finished learning about how a motorcycle works yet! ;D
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Give a bloke a chance - I haven't finished learning about how a motorcycle works yet! ;D
Sounds like you'll be needing one o timbo's tee shirts. Chortle.
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Timbo gave me one of those shirts for some XBR bits that were going free. It only took the missus a nanosecond to ban me from wearing it in public, despite my attempts to explain induction, compression, ignition, exhaust! :-[
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LOL, that's put a real smile on my face Matt, on an otherwise dreary miserable day.
I've really enjoyed this thread. I'm going to reread the whole thing again, and maybe some of it will stick :-\
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I think her exact words were, " Who do you think you are? Some kind of porn star? I don't think so, do you?" :'(
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At which point you shud av replied "yes dear but don't forget it's QUALITY NOT quantity that counts" 😜😜🤘
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Learning all the time here... ;D
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I'm guessing that trying to explain "it's four strokes" just dug you in deeper?
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Yeah! And she would be so lucky!
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I pretended not to realise any double entendre might exist. It didn't work :-[
Andy