Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Project Progress => Topic started by: JOOLZ on October 02, 2016, 04:47:43 PM
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I had probably the last ride of the year today, the bike will come indoors for its rebuild and supercharger fitting, looking forward to it, it looks like it will have around 77Hp so that should be fun :) I have made a few more parts for the bike over the Summer
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Morning Joolz...best of luck with the winter rebuild, looking forward to seeing it built up. Cheers, Michael
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Indoors? 😵
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Yes, the winter garage is the dining room :) Plastic sheet on the carpet, and an old carpet on top of that, the perfect garage warm, can see the tv and not far from the kitchen.
Progress so far, the rolling chassis has been stripped cleaned and rebuilt, the electrics have been repositioned and the battery has been relocated to the tail fairing.
The supercharger has been installed, just working on the engine now, that gives me 4 months to concentrate on just 3 things, carburettor, plenum chamber and the engine mods and rebuild.
Came across one problem though, the fuel tap is in the way of the supercharger pulley, so it looks like I will have to modify the tank :(
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There's always something, isn't there. Good luck with the work ahead :)
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Stripped the engine down to bare cases today, cleaned inside and out removed the old gasket material and recut all the threads, its amazing how much crud builds up at the bottom of the thread drillings.
Cleaned the barrel and inspected it and recut all the threads, also decoked the piston crown and gave it a polish, thinking about spraying the top with thermal barrier coating while its out
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I have the crank extension made and a matching pulley. I also bought a new con rod for the XL600R crank.
This means I will have my original crank for sale if anyone is interested, XBR500 crank with a Hot Rods XL600 con rod and left hand bearing under 9000 miles on it built and indexed by Eastwood racing £75
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Sounds like a very good price to me. :)
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Yes, the winter garage is the dining room :) Plastic sheet on the carpet, and an old carpet on top of that, the perfect garage warm, can see the tv and not far from the kitchen.
You really are living my dream! :) I once got my bike, a 1977 T140V at the time, into the conservatory, but only briefly before we both got thrown back out!
BTW, much like your good self, I'm also a skilled mechanic and engineer ...
(OK, that bit's also part of the dream!)
Best of luck, I'll be thinking of you when I'm out in the garage, freezing my nuts off whilst agonising over whether or not to remove the cylinder head cover!
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mthee, I feel for you, I have just had to turn the central heating down its a bit warm in here :)
As you can see I have had to make a drastic rethink on my setup, the xbr crank put the drive line too far out with the xbr cover, and in order to correct that I would have to fit a small internal flywheel inside the xl600 alternator cover then have a sepatate external alternator plus all the associated gubbins and wiring adaptions
This way I can use the shorter xl crank, bolt the xbr stator to the xl cover and have the pulley line up, trouble is I spent a fair bit of the winter machining up an internal flywheel an end plate and a few other pieces, oh well at least its keeping my engineering skills up to date
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I have 3 different oil pumps here at the moment, the original xbr item an xl pump and an nx pump, I am going to use the nx pump as it is bigger, with the xl gearing which spins the pump faster. The nx pump is 4mm wider so I am going to make up a spacer to go between the crankcase and the clutch cover
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Just dry fitting a few componants together
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Looking good Joolz, bet ya starting to get a little excited eh. Really looking forward to seeing the finished bike...cheers, Michael
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I made my own intake and fitted the carb, looks good. Im sticking to the Amal for now, maybe get a bigger carb next year
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Now that really looks the business :)
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Not much news lately, the crank will be with me Monday or Tuesday after having the new conrod fitted by Eastwood racing, a new genuine Honda left hand crank bearing is being sent by Dave silvers.
In the mean time I have painted the cases and rocker cover.
The cylinder head has been cleaned and the combustion chamber has been reshaped into a cross between the original shape hemi and a pent roof combustion chamber by cutting the chamber at a flater angle to the valves then blending it in (you can just about make it out looking at the picture), a bonus is that the spark plug tip is less shrouded, this has also increased in volume from 60cc to 75cc which will give me a compression ratio of 7.5:1 with the spacer plate and the piston I have.
Already thinking about next year, I am going to put an ignitech programable ignition on the bike it has a single wire activated 2nd ignition map, so I can have a cruise map with lots of advance to support the low compression motor and a retarded map when on boost activated automaticity by a pressure switch in the intake plenum, I also want to fit new seats and 2mm oversize exhaust valves, but cant afford either of these this year
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Cases are cleaned and repainted, just waiting for the crank bearing now
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Looking good joolz.....even I'm starting to get excited and it's not my bike ;) ;)...cheers, Michael
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Aren't we all. Some piece of work :)
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Looks like some awesome engineering going on here, fantastic! :)
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Its all starting to come together now
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Lovely, shiny, engineered baubles in the front room at Christmas! 😋
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Another bit finished, alternator spacer allows me to use the XBR high output alternator with the XL crank, rotor and cover
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Its slowly starting to look like a motorcycle again
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Yep proper engineering, unlike my bodging :-\ Looks fantastic :)
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Thanks, Its reasonably engineered but its not perfect :) I found a way to fit the XBR chain cover with the XL alternator cover, narrowed the cover by 10 mm lines up quite nicely and looks ok
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Looks like it was made by Honda - you must be well chuffed!
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I have done a little bit more work I have started to make the intake plenum with a pop off valve
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I have started on the plumbing, and its a very tight fit, this is the reason why I had to use an XR600 R inlet rubber. I also had to trim a fin so the pipe could route correctly
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Dry fitting the plenum not much room left in there
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Heard of plenum chambers, but had to google it to find out a bit more :-\
Every days a school day. Looking good Joolz :)
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Timbo they are especially important on single cylinder engines, you have to store the mixture from 3 strokes before the intake stroke happens, as the supercharger is pumping all the time. Idealy the plenum on a 600cc engine should hold 2400cc of mixture, unfortunatly I am limited by space so only have about 1400cc, not optimum but it should do
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Latest photos of my progress, Alternator spacer plate I made to allow the use of the xbr alternator with the xl600r cover and latest photo of the bike waiting for the camshaft and the plenum to be fitted
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Hooray the engine is finally reassembled thanks to the generous donation of a camshaft by Michael Moto63. The rocker cover fitting was interesting as the barrel is 4mm taller which meant there is even less room to manouver. The compression is 7.75:1 around what I was aiming for and should be a doddle to kick over, after all I have been used to 11:1+ for the past couple of years
I still have a few odd jobs to do, a cover for the top pulley also looking for a narrower top pulley, fix the belt guard, sort out the fuel and oil pipes
I have a friend who is coming over in 2 weeks time to weld up the plenum and after that I should be giving it a first start up.
Thanks to everyone for the help on alternitive parts and suggestions
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Great news Joolz, hopefully be able to hear it at some point and listen to that charger whistle. Best of luck with the first "fire up" ....
ps ....glad the camshaft worked out for ya.
Cheers, Michael
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Modfied top engine mount fitted and the fairing is back on and I am making a top pulley cover, all the electrics are now working. Still need to sort out a fuel tap, a belt tensioner and the belt cover
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Started thinking about jetting, I have done a rough calculation and recon the main jet will be about 440 up to 500. Jetting when naturally asperated is a 360
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I have fitted a the belt tensioner and fitted a new belt, Its going to need a bit of a tidy up to make it look better but it will do the job also fitted 8mm fuel pipes so it can flow more fuel
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Its almost finished, just completed the belt and pulley cover
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Tidy, Joolz. All the best when it comes to the start up.
My regards, Bill
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Looking good Joolz, Looking forward to seeing the beast in action.
Maybe you cpould give some hints to this guy....I think he needs it....
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This is very interesting, I'll look forward to seeing how it all works out.
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A few small delays and theething problems, the plenum i had made was warped during welding so the valve doesnt seat, I will have to face it with some emery and Im also having problems bleeding the oil system. These things are sent to try us but i will get there eventually
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Finally some progress, the plenum is now fitted, just got some final checks to do, refit the belt and cover then put the tank and seat back on. Hopefully I will have a video up by this time next week :) This project has taken quite a bit longer than I anticipated and I have run into all sorts of unforseen problems. There have been a few times that I have doubts if I could do it or not
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I wouldn't have the knowledge, cahonies, or shutzpah to even attempt anything approaching this kind of thing, so many congratulations, and thanks for consistently posting your exploits Joolz :)
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just a thought re the plenum. is it essential that it be immediately next to the blower? reason i ask is, if it needs to be a certain volume but isnt taking massive pressure, couldnt you use the volume of, for example, the swingarm as a plenum? so, if it was an ally arm that was hollow, as long as there were no breather or drain holes in it, couldnt you use the swingarm as a plenum, or part of it? just intrigued by this project and all the variables it throws up compared to a normally aspirated motor.
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A plenum could be fitted anywhere, a swinging arm could do or a large spine frame, the only problem would be, the more remote the plenum is the more chance for the fuel to fall out of suspension and condense on the walls, also there would be an increase of poor throttle response as the distance got larger between the carb and the intake valve
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Its a very short video, but here is the first start, the carb needs setting up and there are a few other jobs left to do but at least its a runner. By the way its very loud and I will have to do something about that
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It runs, fantastic - a great feeling after all that hard work. The finishing line is definitely in sight. :D
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Fantastic, and thanks for posting all your hard work on here. Its been really interesting, and educating :)
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great stuff joolz it sounds cool tommy
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Tucked away the oil pipes, looks lots neater. they were a right pain to fit there is literally no room left. Had a second start today tick over with the choke off, idles nicely at 1000 rpm. The revs hang after I open the throttle but thats the next job, set up the carb.
I didnt realise how much louder the bike would sound, its ear splitting, now sounds like a Manx Norton with a megaphone, I will need to quieten it down a little or Im going to be pulled by the police
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Nice one Joolz, congrats on the start up. I imagine it was a good feeling eh? Bet you're itching to take it for it's maiden ride, best of luck with the rest of the "tidying up jobs"
Cheers..Michael
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Thank you all for the good wishes, I can finally see the light at the end of the tunnel.
I spoke to someone on facebook who runs a supercharged Jawa 500 land speed racer, he posted a video of his bike ticking over, and it had the same slightly obnoxous rattely burble in the exhaust note that mine now has, he tells me that it is the effect of having a supercharger fitted, so I think I will get myself a length of perforated tube and stick it in the silencer, maybe it will take the harsness out of the exhaust
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Still trying to jet the carb, but the rest is pretty much done
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That's a truly lovely bike Joolz. I find it strangely reminiscent of a round case Ducati...
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Progress continues, its looking likely that I will be on the road at the weekend. I have had fun and games jetting the carb, I now have a mixture of 4 stroke and 2 stroke jets plus an extra small air compensation jet.
I had 2 plenum explosions during testing, quite a loud bang about as big as a big banger or Chinese firecracker, I first explosion blew off the supercharger pipe, I adjusted the blow off valve spring pressure and the second time it happened it just lifted the valve.
It idles like a supercharged engine with the revs hunting up and down. Just waiting for some perforated stainless pipe to arrive to quieten down the exhaust.
I started my testing with the standard XBR cdi box but that has such advanced ignition timing at idle that my silencer was as hot as the downpipes used to get last year. I put on the XL600 cdi and thats a bit better, but I need to get a programmable ignition to retard the timing further. Ideally the timing should be around 10 - 15 degrees at idle ramping upto somewhere around 30 degrees at 3500rpm
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Keep at it Joolz, I'm sure once you swing a leg over it and feel that supercharge surge of power it'll av been worth all your efforts... good luck for the weekend and please let us know how it goes.
Cheers, Michael
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Sorry its been a while since my last update, Suzanne was ill again and back in hospital, so the bike went on hold again. However everything is back on course.
I was worried about how loud the bike was and how hot it was running, so I rechecked the cam timing, I must have been asleep that day as the timing was 1 tooth out. Retimed the cam and it sounds a lot better and is running cooler.
I encounterted a very unusual problem, I could get it to tick over but when reved, the revs stayed high and wouldnt come back down, the usual problem here is that it is running lean, after playing with the jetting I started to suspect they were not the fault, it turned out that the suction from the supercharger was holding the slide partially open. 2 throttle return springs cured that
The first video was before I realised the cam timing was out, the other 3 are the first test rides
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I took the bike out for a longer ride today, an interesting riding experience, out of town its pretty much like any motorcycle, but stop start riding is very tricky as these is a fair bit of blower surge between the 900-1100 idle, it pulls easily but obviously its a very jerky ride so I found it easier to get it rolling and feather the clutch to control low speed. There is more blower surge at 2200-2500 rpm as well but its not so much of a problem, I also have a flat spot at around half throttle that I will have to sort out.
Im happy Im back on the road but there is still a bit more to do
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Sounds and looks great Joolz :)
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Thanks timbo :) Im still playing with the carb and getting it closer to being smooth running. There is quite a big difference in the jetting now compared to the standard carb,
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This is the last post for this current project and I thought I would give you a final update on how everything went.
On my last post I explaned how I was chasing around the carb jetting problem and getting how worried I was about fuel consumption due to the large jets needed, this turned out to be a red herring :(
I spent the past couple of months chasing round a carb problem while riding the bike out and about. I could either get it running well in the lower throttle settings or get it running at high to full throttle, but never both. It turns out that the pressure relief valve isnt mating with the plenum properly allowing it to hold pressure ok, but it appears not to seat properly under vacuum.
Discovered this a few days ago when I carried out a risky test ride. Jetted the carb the same as I had it last year, started and ran it on choke untill I got up to speed took the choke off and it flew like the wind, accelerated faster than my old GS1000 used to.
Riding back home off the main road was frightenly interesting juggling the choke to get somewhere near a running mixture while being very careful with my quick acting throttle on a supercharged engine that was badly surging along with multiple huge very loud plenum explosions.
I have made a new end plate and everything is sorted now.
The following day I had another problem which meant more ongoing improvments and modifications to the bike. The supercharger extension shaft unscrewed because a roll pin failed. Roll pin has now been replaced by a 4mm hardened steel pin.
I realised that there may have a few teething problems with this build as no one has done it before. Im slowly getting on top of all the weak points now. Carburettor problems sorted now and runs equally well with the supercharger connected or not (although its slower)
The bike is now fully operational and rides better than I hoped, no reving needed to pull away just slip the clutch at idle and pull away, amazing acceleration and top speed of 130+. In normal riding the engine is a lot cooler that the last few years due to the low compression and standard cam, obviously it will run hotter if Im winding open the throttle a lot as it will be building boost.
The bikes performance is all I have wanted in an engine, perfect for a slow lazy ride around the forest roads with almost no strain on the engine with the added bonus of modern motorcycle performance available when I need it.
We went for a ride on Sunday 60 miles of mixed forest roads and main roads, started off apprihensive wondering if it will be ok but after the first 10 miles I was fully confident it was a wonderful ride and great weather. Finished off at a bikers meeting spot and had a huge crowd admiring the bike and supercharger
short video here....
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Sounds an absolute hoot Joolz.... well done on getting it all sorted out. Happy (and safe) riding
Cheers..Michael