Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: xbally on April 15, 2016, 12:17:20 PM
-
Over 12 months ago i bought a Honda VT500 which so the story went had been stood for about 20 years as the PO had died and his widow was reluctant to move the bike on.Muggins bought the bike off the person who bought it from the PO's widow and it then sat in my workshop for 12 months.It's recently been re-commissioned and after a load of hassle passed the MOT and is now on the road.Yesterday,out of the blue i received a letter from our friends at the DVLA to say there was a discrepancy in the frame number on the MOT certificate and the MOT.When i checked they are correct and the numbers do not match!I know you are supposed to check these things when you buy and this is the first time i have been caught out!I have reported back to the DVLA and await their response.Does anyone have experience of this state of affairs?Am i looking at a VOSA inspection or am i at risk of losing the bike?I've chucked loadsamoney at it to bring it back to life!
-
Is the difference typo proportions or obvious tampering? Ive come out of discussions on 4 vs 8 vs B sucessfuly on trailer plates, you just need to get to talk to a real person which can be frustrating.
Andy
-
There's no obvious sign of re-stamping or tampering.The two different numbers are not that far apart but i don't see how they could have become mixed up.It's a bit of a mystery to me-maybe 20+ years ago-before this country was politically correct -these things were the norm?I don't know.
-
You've lost me, I'm afraid. Do you mean the frame no on the V5 is different from the frame no on the MOT cert?
-
Yes that's it!Simples..........
-
Mmm. So the frame no stamped on the bike, doesn't match the log book. Does everything else on the logbook tie in with the bike? Could it be, for example, an 8 stamped on the frame, has been read as a 3, or similar?
-
There's an actual difference of 84 in the two numbers,ie if you take away the lower number from the higher but i can't see that an 3 has been mistaken for a 3 or anything like that.
-
Just keep talking to them. They seem to respond better to a bit of gentle pushing back followed by positive suggestions. They know their systems have been a shambles for years and all the manual entry stuff is full of typos but as The Government cant own up. Their training levels arent up to knowing what to do, so any easy, practical, open solution is often accepted. Blame the first MOT station 17 years ago and offer to send them photos of an obviously original frame and number. Dont suppose youve got anything nice like engine to frame bolts with 20 year old rust joining them?
Andy
-
Thanks Andy-that advice sounds like a good plan.As you rightly say before we became a Police State things were very different.The bike does look to be very original.The discrepancy may been due to an entirely innocent error-who had the responsibility of entering the frame number at initial registration?The supplying dealer i suppose?It was probably the YTS mechanic's task and he didn't care a jot whether the numbers were right or not OR as you say on the first MOT.Hopefully nothing will be shown on any stolen vehicle register and it can be sorted out amicably.
-
Yes, I think that is the only way out of it. Gently convince them that there must have been a mistake made. Also do a DVLA enquiry online, to see what that throws up. It should at least link your reg with the make band model of bike.
-
We should be glad that the DVLA is doing its bit to stop potentially stolen parts being used on bikes to be honest. If the frame number is coming up on their system as linked to a stolen machine then you should expect a visit at some point to see how you came by it.
If its a mistake by the manufacturer then it would be very unusual in my experience - and I've had to examine a fair few vehicles for chassis/frame/engine numbers in my time.
"before this country was politically correct" - not sure what thats got to do with it mind. Somebody will be along in a moment to say its the EU's fault no doubt.
If the frame number isn't showing as stolen then they may get you to attend VOSA or similar for verification to make sure it hasn't been cleverly altered from a stolen machine. I don't know if they are still doing that. I haven't had one of those jobs come along in a good while.
It used to be recommended that the buyer check vehicles to ensure that the engine and chassis numbers matched the log book but that again seems to have stopped over recent years, I don't know why. Saying which I don't do it myself any more (note to self to start again).
If no reason turns up they are usually pretty good at eventually just amending records. Stick with it, though by the sound of it you don't have much alternative. Good luck.
-
"before this country was politically correct" - not sure what thats got to do with it mind. Somebody will be along in a moment to say its the EU's fault no doubt.
Or ethanol.........
-
Ye i'm sure the DVLA are only doing their job....hell i used to be a civil servant once myself. Agreed i should have checked the numbers before i bought it but the PO seemed like such a nice chap.......I used to do this at one time but it seemed to be no longer necessary.Guess i'm as much annoyed with myself-it's just hassle you can do without.Life's complicated enough.Fingers crossed it will sort itself out....
-
Many many many moons ago when I was a 17 year old sprog I rebuilt a Lambretta scooter I had bought in boxes off my mate ( I've had the treatment and I'm better now!....well it was very cheap).
When I sent the log book up to the DVLA to get the owner details changed it came back as a Lambretta 175cc 2 stroke waste disposal vehicle! so they do make mistakes.....or they don't like scooters!
-
Sounds about right to me......!!
-
You get some great errors cropping up on V5's that don't come to light for an age, communication and an explanation to the DVLA can be fruitful. I think at worst you would have to re-register it.
-
The worst error I come across is losing entitlements when renewing licences. They won't even accept photocopies of old licences.
I have known of somebody who ended up having to resit their bike tests.
An expensive PITA.
-
I've heard of this. The solution is apparently to "lose" your existing photocard licence before applying for a replacement then miraculously "find" it again if the new one isn't right...... I did this but my new one was OK.
-
Update...........After months of receiving various letters from the DVLA and repeatedly sending them photos and rubbings of the bike,frame number ,filling in forms etc,etc,they have now written to TELL me i can no longer use my bike on a public road due to the irregularities-the engine number didn't match the V5 either..oops i know it's my fault technically for failing to check before i bought the bike and spent £s getting it to what i thought was a road legal state.......The seller seemed such a lovely guy as well.............I now have to find a bona fide trader who can grind off the old frame number and re-stamp it and sign a declaration to that effect...Then i have to fill in another form to apply for individual vehicle status or something unfathomable,then they are going on about Type Approval ,then i have to pay a fee of £85,then have an inspection at VOSA and then if i'm lucky i may get a valuable Q plate.I presumably will also have to have another MOT and i also have to pay further road tax if they allow me to put the bike back on the road.PLEASE BE WARNED:check whether frame and engine numbers match the V5C before you buy a vehicle........I know i could buy a second hand frame with a V5 and swap all the ancilliaries over but it's not worth the hassle or i could break the bike but the frame is worthless now and again it's not worth the hassle..........
-
Blooming heck mate, that's bad news! Though it could well be that the previous owner never checked the numbers either, not that that helps you.
Many moons ago before t'internet et all, I new a fella with a chop built out of all sorts of bits, and it had a Q plate. This irked him somewhat, so he put an ad in UBG for a frame and log book. A guy contacted him, whose bike had burnt out in a fire. He agreed to sell him the frame and logbook, but rather than post the whole frame, he cut off the headstock, so that frame could never be used again, and just posted the headstock, and log book. The frame number on my friends bike mysteriously slid off it or summut, and the donor frame number appeared on it :-\
Et voila, he ended up the owner of a C plate chop. I'm only saying ;)
-
Update...........After months of receiving various letters from the DVLA and repeatedly sending them photos and rubbings of the bike,frame number ,filling in forms etc,etc,they have now written to TELL me i can no longer use my bike on a public road due to the irregularities-the engine number didn't match the V5 either..oops i know it's my fault technically for failing to check before i bought the bike and spent £s getting it to what i thought was a road legal state.......The seller seemed such a lovely guy as well.............I now have to find a bona fide trader who can grind off the old frame number and re-stamp it and sign a declaration to that effect...Then i have to fill in another form to apply for individual vehicle status or something unfathomable,then they are going on about Type Approval ,then i have to pay a fee of £85,then have an inspection at VOSA and then if i'm lucky i may get a valuable Q plate.I presumably will also have to have another MOT and i also have to pay further road tax if they allow me to put the bike back on the road.PLEASE BE WARNED:check whether frame and engine numbers match the V5C before you buy a vehicle........I know i could buy a second hand frame with a V5 and swap all the ancilliaries over but it's not worth the hassle or i could break the bike but the frame is worthless now and again it's not worth the hassle..........
The engine number is irrelevant but if the frame number is a genuine number you should be able to get the age confirmed buy a club of some sort(the dvla can give you a huge list of clubs they'll accept info from) then you'll get an age related plate.
-
Thanks for your input Mark and Timbo.I don't think you can get away with much in these days of rank officialdom.I'm no longer in any bike clubs-used to be in the VJMC,BMF and Kawasaki Triples and Aircooled RD clubs.The frame number doesn't look to have been messed about with so maybe this is worth following up?Whatever i do the bike can't now be used legally on the road for some time (if ever)until i've jumped through the various hoops.......
-
Agree with Mark. Just join an owners club who the DVLA recognises for dating purposes for that bike, and you will get an age related plate, at worst. I've just been through the process for a Matchless, and managed to keep the original number.
-
Thanks Timbo-i've looked on the DVLA website and the VJMC and HOC are listed so i'll email them from home tonight(i'm at work now) and see if they can help.Not bothered whether it's the original or an age related plate..........
-
I agree. My strategy would be to treat it as if you have a legit bike with no paperwork, and some separate papers which have just become irrelevant. As others say, the knack is in finding a real human at DVLA to chat to. Can they confirm that your (real) frame no and engine no are NOT stolen or scrapped? If so, should not be a bother getting age-related plate (not transferrable, but not Q). Think a dating letter from Honda is about £50. I assume/hope that at one point, SOMEONE had at least 2 VT500s and bikes and papers got mixed.
If ithelps, I once bought TWO RD250DXs (yeah, I know). I got papers for a THIRD one, one of the ones I had but with a different engine no, NOTHING with the sellers name and address on it, and papers to prove the sale of one bike to someone else!! Phew! Both bikes off road for five years plus. After a WHILE, I got thru to a lovely anorak who just went thru what I a tually had, and we straightened everything out. At no cost, I got all the papers for two bikes I owned (I guess nothing was nicked).
I wont tell you the story about the TWO T140s in Scotland with the same frame no......
Good luck. Be honest and inmocent (and lucky) and I hope you will find the right person to talk to. TELL them how much time and effort you put in. And tell us when it works out.
-
Many many many moons ago when I was a 17 year old sprog I rebuilt a Lambretta scooter I had bought in boxes off my mate ( I've had the treatment and I'm better now!....well it was very cheap).
When I sent the log book up to the DVLA to get the owner details changed it came back as a Lambretta 175cc 2 stroke waste disposal vehicle! so they do make mistakes.....or they don't like scooters!
although that may not be too wrong. many years ago on a holiday in paris, we kept spotting these odd looking bikes and scooters, the bikes were all big honda trailys the scooters were a mix of lambretta and vespa 9this was before the trend for funky scooters so none of the big jap firms had made any real efforts in scooters back then. anyhow, we spotted one one day close up, it was, and i will try and find the one pic i have to prove my point, a dog shit collector. seriously, it rode up and down the parisien pavements and on spotting the little steaming heap of evidence, it would stop, and what resembled a hoover pipe with a funnel on the end would be lowered by the rider, the poop was sucked up and then the pavement was sprayed with disinfectant and water which was then sucked up leaving the boulevard sparkling fresh. back then, we came from an england where crunchy white dog turds would fester on pavements for weeks on eld, so this canine ablution vacuum cleaner was an amazing thing to see. it wouldnt have been as shocking if it had taken off and flown away. when we came back, nobody would believe that it existed.
so, if your old log book says that the scooter was a waste disposal vehicle, it might not be so implausible!
-
ok here we go, its a scan from a single negative off a 110 camera, (remember them!) i think its a 250 honda under all that, but there were also scooters fitted with the same getup.
a horrific thought occurs to me though.. paris traffic is a nightmare and i suppose that being knocked off your bike is an occupational hazard, but imagine being skittled off a bike carrying a tank containing 50 litres of liquified dogshit.........
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Aye john,
Comfy seat! ;D Looks almost like a Royce Creasey 'Voyager'! 8) That'll date us! ;)
I see that Royce is still on the go and this Craig Vetter site provides a very nice summary with links for those whom might be interested:
Craig_Vetter_FF_proponents (http://craigvetter.com/pages/Main_Design_Page/Pioneer%20designers/Pioneer%20FF%20Designers.html)
Also, I have a Minolta 110 ZOOM SLR for sale if you would care to indulge? :-\ I took some reasonable images/prints, with the wee beastie, but the images/slides are a much more difficult image to obtain with good quality or to scan. I have spent many 'happy' hours transferring from one to t'other! ???
My regards, Bill
-
Update...........After months of receiving various letters from the DVLA and repeatedly sending them photos and rubbings of the bike,frame number ,filling in forms etc,etc,they have now written to TELL me i can no longer use my bike on a public road due to the irregularities-the engine number didn't match the V5 either..oops i know it's my fault technically for failing to check before i bought the bike and spent £s getting it to what i thought was a road legal state.......The seller seemed such a lovely guy as well.............I now have to find a bona fide trader who can grind off the old frame number and re-stamp it and sign a declaration to that effect...Then i have to fill in another form to apply for individual vehicle status or something unfathomable,then they are going on about Type Approval ,then i have to pay a fee of £85,then have an inspection at VOSA and then if i'm lucky i may get a valuable Q plate.I presumably will also have to have another MOT and i also have to pay further road tax if they allow me to put the bike back on the road.PLEASE BE WARNED:check whether frame and engine numbers match the V5C before you buy a vehicle........I know i could buy a second hand frame with a V5 and swap all the ancilliaries over but it's not worth the hassle or i could break the bike but the frame is worthless now and again it's not worth the hassle..........
ok, the quick answer to all this. vt500's arent exactly vincent black shadows, they arent uber rare and impossible to source. so, just locate a frame with a v5 off ebay, then after checking the numbers are fine (lol, sorry) paint the frame and rebuild all your components from the bike you have onto the 'new' frame. it will cost you less in hassle and grey hair from the dvla than doing it their way. then tell dvla that you have scrapped the frame you use now. theres a frame with a v5 on ebay for £49.99. rebuilding it is a weekends work. regardless of whether you think it not worth it, if you like the bike, why not do this and then you can run it as long as you like.
-
The more i delve into the the better it gets.........!
johnr : i hear what you say but i don't think it would be a weekend's work for me!I used to be able to strip and build up a Kawa 250/400 triple in a weekend years ago but these 80's Hondas are something else!We had to tap the airbox gently back together with a rubber mallet and broom stick after the carbs were taken off to strip and clean them...and that was just the tip of the ice berg.They are not (for me)that easy to work on.I know getting a V5C and log book could be the way to go but i think it would be a long and tedious job-at least it would be for me..I know D&K have a USA one on Ebay (that would still need registering) but i can't see anything else on there at the moment.
I have been on the VJMC website and they can date the frame for a fee of £50(including re-joining the Club)but i'm unsure whether the DVLA would still accept this?I don't have much experience of the DVLA .As has been said if you can get to speak to a sympathetic human being there there may be a way around this but it's all a matter of discretion in applying their rules and one official may not be as helpful as another....when you speak to them again or send in the paperwork.
Either way it's a mess(some might say of my own making)and i posted it up partly to warn others ....
Thanks for all replies anyway-still conjecturing what to do!
-
Well, good luck, it is a tricky one. In my case, the bloke I spoke to asked me to send papers marked for his attention! Lucky me!
That said, I have a slight ongoing situation myself that I have avoided contacting DVLA with so far: my XBR was bought new by my Dad, not pre-registered or any malarkey. I am the second owner. The sales receipt is full of mistakes and crossings-out (handwritten), and the V5 has the DEALER as first owner, for ONE DAY, my Dad as second owner, and me as third.
This is annoying, as I'd like the bike to be noted as always being in my family. Not planning to sell it (well, until I'm an old man... I have no kids) but still. Will try to fix it one day, and it doesnt affect daily ownership.
Oh, and those Paris shit bikes? I remember Bike magazine having an article about them ,XT350s IIRC.
-
Yes Brendan if you can get a helpful soul i'm sure it would be a lot easier.......
I don't think the situation with your XBR will affect your bike as it's part of the history.Dealers still often register new bikes.I think manufacturers will sell the bike for a discount to the supplying dealer if they register it because they can then say they (the manufacturer)has sold another bike.Do this across a range of machines and your sales increase substantially!
-
Cheers for that... I do wonder whether somehow Del Basso of Hitchin pulled a fast one on my Dad!
-
what would you value it at to sell it then? i know someone after a bike when he finally does his test, this would be handy to buy and then build into a frame from ebay.
-
Well-it owes me at least £1K.Cost £500 to buy and i spent at least another £500 getting it road ready.A re-cored radiator was £180 which is the reason it was taken off the road all those years ago i'm guessing.Having passed the MOT the front master cylinder needed new seals as it was locking the front brake permanently.Oil and filter change,new plugs.Two new BT45s,carb strip and clean,petrol tap seal kit from NRP etc ,etc.Been using it to get me the 10 miles to work and 10 miles back + running around -it hasn't missed a beat in all this time.........make me an offer..............???!!!
-
Update..........no easy solution to this....so i decided to cut my losses and put it on Evilbay......never had so many questions and interest.Just sold it for £400-please check chassis / frame numbers against the V5C on all prospective purchases wherever possible