Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Project Progress => Topic started by: guest1306 on June 12, 2011, 05:34:27 PM
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A couple of years ago the British Supermono upped the limit of 800cc to no limit. Ive been frantically working on my new bike to get it on the track, but everything takes time when youve got no cash. However it is looking possible to race it next year. So far the project has cost me £1000, and the same again should do for the rest of the bits i need :- piston, clutch, chain, injectors, conrod , bearings, etc
It`s hand milled billet engine runs with Haltech injection, has a massive intercooler under the tank (which actually acts as the top frame), has triple air reed valve inlets into the engine, and a rotary Cross valve head. The seat unit is just one big pressure tank There is no gearbox, just a Revtech clutch mounted on the crank (no cash to buy yet) hopefully the massive pokey and very low friction (there are only two moving parts in the engine) will overcome the need for such. An expected at least 150 hp @ 6000 rpm with a very flat torque curve. This baby can run on most fuels and has a ground compression ratio of 15:1. Unfuelled weight 140 kg.
Its little brother which i learned so much over the past 17 years is a 500cc with an adapted Godden speedway engine with double crankcase inlets, holds the flying kilometer on ice record at 96 mph, and plan to de-bore it to 450cc and run next years Manx where new mono rules allow such.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/supermono2002.jpg)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/supermono2001.jpg)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwoodhybrid1300ccCrankcasesuperchargedSingle.jpg)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/EllwoodHybrid500cc.jpg)
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hells yeah :)
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ye gods!
what power does it make at the wheel?what is the all up weight?
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Ellwood,
I had a quick look at your site to find our where the gearbox and clutch were located and it indicates its a single speed, but I still cant see the clutch, is it mounted on the crankshaft ?
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Both Steves:- I will not be satisfied with less than 150 hp. The British Supermono is the only country/race series which has raised the Supermono cc limits, so thats where i gotta run it. Hoping for debut at Oliver`s Mount Gold Cup race 2012.
When running at the flying K on ice i can run it on Nitro/Methanol so that should more than double the power. The engine parts are overdimensioned so will be able to handle the Nitro brutality.
A dry clutch will be mounted directly on crankshaft. The whole bike weighs 140kg.
Regards Ellwood
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A dry clutch will be mounted directly on crankshaft. The whole bike weighs 140kg.
I take it then he drive will be taken from the outside of the clutch basket, hence the reason for the massive rear sprocket ?
Steve
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Great John, thanks for sharing!
a
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A dry clutch will be mounted directly on crankshaft. The whole bike weighs 140kg.
I take it then he drive will be taken from the outside of the clutch basket, hence the reason for the massive rear sprocket ?
Steve
i recon it will be like an old brit bike with the drive to the rear wheel off the back of the clutch basket and the inpit shaft to the basket up the inside of the output sprocket carrier.
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naturally so. gear behind the basket. The bike just gets geared to the track like a speedway bike. that big back sprocket is just there to gear it down to 150 mph.
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Amazing piece of engineering
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Silly question, but how have you got your valve gear timed?
From the outside it could easily be mistaken for a chuff off two stroke!!
Much respect due though for the engineering that's obviously gone into the bike and I wish you every success with it in the future.
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I use a Cross vave like this one
http://www.germancarforum.com/tech-talk-forum/18772-bishop-rotary-valve-design-f1-engine.html
But i can also swap from 4 stroke design to a 2 stroke cylinder and head , but theres no racing class if i do that.
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I saw something like this design years ago, but at the time they were struggling to get a good enough seal on the valve gear.
Once again I have huge respect to anyone who can turn out this kind of thing especially on a budget. Reminds me of my late uncle who made a foot long fully working jet engine for one of his model planes. The jet idled at 60,000rpm and stalled at 30,000rpm, but I never did find out what it topped out at though.
Does this also mean you've made a clean burn two stroke? (no two stroke oil)?
1300 two stroke? EEEEKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
Seriously though I wish you every luck in the future.
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Cheers, I just need to get this baby running for its premier next year, cos i`m 50 then and wanna run it at Olivers Mount Gold Cup.
Its not a clean running 2 stroke, its a dirty 4 stroke- haha. It will always use 2 stroke oil, but i can bleed off a good percentage with a popoff valve.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/1300SupermonoLinkping.jpg)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/1300SupermonoinLinkping.jpg)
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I am in awe and boggled. Fantastic stuff.
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I only dream of doing (as in building) stuff like that. Well done that man and for sharing the info
Good luck with it
Ian :)
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Mmmmmm!!
Coming together!! Much left to do John? How far are you from "Bangs"??
a
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6 months and one thousand pounds away- forged con rod, liner, new piston and a few needle rollers and seals.. a proper clutch will put me back at least 500 quid too, but not necessary for a start up.
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Any reason you chose to use the cross valve rather than the aspin which is easier to seal
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Any reason you chose to use the cross valve rather than the aspin which is easier to seal
The Cross valve is more of a challenge- i like that, plus its a more compact.
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(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/newest1300pic.jpg)
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What MotoGP should be all about! ;D Good to see the progress and shaming my continued lack of progress! :-[
All the best and thanks for sharing the beastie with us.
Regards, Bill.
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I cant wait to see a video of this beast running, I bow to your engineering skill
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Thanx Jools, but im really not that clever at the engineering. This is a very basic engine, all the parts are admittedly handmade by me, but the tolerances are not that tight.
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Wow it's really coming on! Don't short change yourself regarding the engineering skills. Being able to make the components involved and having the knowledge to make it all work would put many to shame.
I've got to ask though, does at also come in black as Judge Dredd's new hack? ;) ;D
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Thanks Boatloader. Black would be naturally best, but the silver paint is a few bob cheaper. Ive now ordered forged special one off piston and same forged rod, so thats gonna set me back an arm or leg.
As soon as i get those then i have to decide on a harley drag bike clutch or go for hydraulic drive- the latter would be nice, just set the engine to max power revs, and use a throttle to regulate the hydraulic drive.
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Oooh hydraulic drive would be good max power or torque everywhere! Could you 2wd it?
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Small update on whats been/not been happening lately, although ive been working away from home a lot. -
The piston and rod, specially made by CP Carillo Pistons are soon ready to pay for, so i am selling off some stuff to sponsor this.
Slicks tyres are now on the bike.
Had a good tip from a French guy not to use a big heavy chain as the centrifugal effect can break it when it rounds the sprocket, so i plan on putting a double small chain on.
Havent bought a clutch yet, may even make one.
Have sawn the slits in rotary head where aluminium bronze inserts shall hold the sealing rings. the watercooling is not done yet though.
The hydraulic drive idea cant be done as it would require a big cooling system, and there isnt room for such.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/rotaryheadmilling_zps745d3b5c.jpg)
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have gotten two of the allybronze inserts in the half round ones). Busy milling out the flat straight ones now from a round bar- a ordious task, shame i couldnt scrounge the correct size flat profile
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1300progress2013001_zps65f1325c.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/1300progress2013001_zps65f1325c.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1300progress2013003_zpsb18b85a6.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/1300progress2013003_zpsb18b85a6.jpg.html)
and a new rotary valve with adapter for holding the cam belt cog
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1300progress2013005_zpse8317ff3.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/1300progress2013005_zpse8317ff3.jpg.html)
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stunning! im gobsmacked with awe!!!
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Now the piston and rod are paid for , and winging their way to me .
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"Bairn in a sweetshop!" comes to mind ;)
Thank you for sharing progress Ellwood, looks like a machinists delight. All the best and will look forward to the next installment, when convenient.
"Hats of to you, Sir".
Bill.
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Keep em coming Ellwood.
Still loving it! 8)
andy
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when indecision sets in and a hard task ahead, like lathing a rotary valve head , then drink a snakebite or two:- 7 .2% cider, 7% lager
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RET web mag - a little push to get it finished
https://www.highpowermedia.com/articles/2151/do-it-yourself/
https://www.highpowermedia.com/articles/2900/against-all-odds/
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Nice to see some progress :D :D
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milled straight ally bronze seal holders
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/maj42013002_zps65a5466c.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/maj42013002_zps65a5466c.jpg.html)
my old combi miller lathe is the bees knees
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/maj42013001_zps2a4f7bf9.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/maj42013001_zps2a4f7bf9.jpg.html)
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Carillo piston and rod are in my garage now, that foot is size 45 !. next step is the liner.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1300ccpistonandrod_zps8e4acc30.jpeg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/1300ccpistonandrod_zps8e4acc30.jpeg.html)
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Now thats some piston and conrod, this is an amazing project :)
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Now the piston and rod are paid for , and winging their way to me .
John,
Are these to your pattern, or do they cross-ref to an existing application?? Just out of interest,
cheers
andy
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Hi Andy.
My own design, note only 2 rings present ( i dont need a scraper ring as it runs on 2stroke oil) Extra thick crown for Nitro use. The rod is also own design. Carillo did me a cheap deal in half sponsorship since they are interested in the project.
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(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/8_zps361cbacb.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/8_zps361cbacb.jpg.html)
not much progress - my car has been breaking down too much and stealing my time.
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Very nice John. ;D
Steady away.
My regards, Bill.
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Ellwood, I just looked through your pictures, what is this ?
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1DM35764.jpg)
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Hi, its a starter motor for a boat engine i think. It is a turbine , they inject fuel into it, then the jet thrusts the sled forwards. I believe the top speed for such a sled is approx 130 mph. A few guys make their own out of turbos - just reverse the turbo action and hej presto a little jut turbine. you can look at U tube for jet spark.
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and what about the brakes ?!
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and what about the brakes ?!
Dont think there any, any problem its just jump off !
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This is not a progress report, but Scott in the U.S of A has made a very thorough Hybrid interview, and you can see it on his website:-
http://www.soonerbillz.com/ then press inside the grid button
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Thoroughly enjoyed reading that article :)
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now the wet liner is ready
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/liner004_zps33eccdf5.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/liner004_zps33eccdf5.jpg.html)
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the CP top fuel piston weighed 862 grams, I gotta get rid of a lot of weight from it. This milling removed 60 grams. At least 150 grams left to remove.
I made these buttons for the gudgeon pin ( instead of circlips) -guaranteed to never fall out. note use of an aluminium rod to hold the piston on the milling bed,
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/oct2013017_zps5a362653.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/oct2013017_zps5a362653.jpg.html)
So now its finished, and weighs 679 grams. now time to start balancing the flywheels
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/carillo001_zpsf8bf2e5e.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/carillo001_zpsf8bf2e5e.jpg.html)
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Happy New Year, some progress with the head/rotary valve
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Mobile%20Uploads/rv2012dec002_zps07e5bde7.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/rv2012dec002_zps07e5bde7.jpg.html)
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Love it, great work
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Wow ! Looks great !
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a little more progress on head.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Mobile%20Uploads/finishedhead_zpse0e7d3b8.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/finishedhead_zpse0e7d3b8.jpg.html)
Some precision holes, splined shafts and bearings left to fix. Otherwise looking good for start up 2014.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Mobile%20Uploads/completeengine2014003_zpse35293b0.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/Mobile%20Uploads/completeengine2014003_zpse35293b0.jpg.html)
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WOW !! Amazing !
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Wonderful work :)
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now its time to dust the cobwebs off my brakebench
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/brakebench002_zps4be5c52a.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/brakebench002_zps4be5c52a.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/brakebench003_zps970e3151.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/brakebench003_zps970e3151.jpg.html)
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This is all getting rather exciting john! I love the work going on here.
Keep it up. Do you plan to do any European supermono rounds with it?
A
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How does the Dyno work ? Is it an inertia do ?. I can see a gearbox and car wheel, does the wheel drive a roller ?. If its a normal dyno how are you dissipating the energy ?
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Its a water turbine paddle wheel. the bike back wheel sits on the rollers and up against the car wheel, the bike spins the car wheel, which , when water is applied to the turbine house, applies a force on the 1 meter long arm , which presses down on the load cell, which displays kilos on the digital scales. so this kilos reading is multiplied by the engine revs and gives a figure.
for example 11.5 kilos x 7000 rpm:- i dont bother about the three zeroes, so 11.5 x 7 = 80.5
if i tweak something and it becomes 11.6 kilos, or 7050 rpm , then it is on the correct path of adjustment.
calculations or fiddle figures arent necessary for seeing if the power increases or decreases when adjusting fuel or timing - i am happy if i see the scales or revs increasing when i adjust something.
I have just put together a logger which can be plugged into the computer, but otherwise its just as easy to use a video camera sighted on the scales and revcounter if some logging is desired.
the water doesnt cost so much, and can even be returned to a header tank if i had one. Mind you , it will boil after prolonged running as heat is generated.
I can also bolt on a seperate engine and run with a chain to the sprocket if i wish to bolt it onto the turbine shaft. at the moment the sprocket is just hanging so i dont get tangled up in it.
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Makes sense, I seem to remember using something similar in my final year to measure the output of a steam power plant. Did you build this yourself ?
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Original H. P. Andersen. Danish brakebench which takes up to 350 hp. i totally renovated her- was in a sorry state, then built on the rolling bed and car wheel.
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This is all getting rather exciting john! I love the work going on here.
Keep it up. Do you plan to do any European supermono rounds with it
Hi Andy, had hoped to race the Hybrid 500 at Snetterton in June, but funds wont allow it. So I just keep working on the 1300, with whatever doesnt cost anything, and hope that next year will be the big event. Yes hope to race the 1300 at Euro Mono, especially looking forward to bringing her to a Scarborough event.
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especially looking forward to bringing her to a Scarborough event.
I'd make the trip to Scarborough to see that.
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Dyno from the side and front
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/dynoside_zps28d73415.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/dynoside_zps28d73415.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/dynofront_zpsee517a7d.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/dynofront_zpsee517a7d.jpg.html)
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Cheers Rhinoman.
So here is the crankpin ready to get hardened, and after that, finely grinded down to 40mm
I always used to think things i used to buy were expensive, until i started making them myself. Bought things are very cheap considering all the R&D, work and finish, transport and storage, sales etc.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/crankpin9maj008_zps9013bd07.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/crankpin9maj008_zps9013bd07.jpg.html)
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now the crankpin is hardened. only the final grinding left to do on it.
That leaves me to sort out the cylinder O ring and 20mm distance peice under the cylinder this month, and hopefully the final water cooling holes and threads in the head.
Then theres everything else left to fix
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Thanks to Jens of http://www.nccr.se/ i now have a Buell XB clutch which will be going on the 1300. next step is designing the axle to take it, and precision machining and honing the crank pin holes in the flywheels.
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now the cylinder base spacer is finished
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/basegasket_zps5ddcb3d7.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/basegasket_zps5ddcb3d7.jpg.html)
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finally got around to shortening the liner , assembled cylinder and bottom spacer.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/linershort_zps75725850.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/linershort_zps75725850.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/linerassembly_zpsbe3a835e.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/linerassembly_zpsbe3a835e.jpg.html)
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Looks like its getting there now. What a monster, cant wait until you get it running
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Cheers Joolz, ive had a nice weekend running my old Hybrid on my brakebench. It pressed 12 kilos at engine 7460 rpm
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/brakebench2014002_zpsc4cb6609.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/brakebench2014002_zpsc4cb6609.jpg.html)
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Bike looks good. Would love to hear it.
Put me right here, that's 120 Nm? Just shy of 90 lbft?
That'll be the torque at the turbine? Assuming I'm on the right lines here, what speed is the turbine doing?
The rolling diameters of turbine tyre and bike tyre look similar. How much slip?
Great stuff.
Cheers
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yes thats the turbine torque, when running in top gear on the bike. absolutely no slip, she is ratcheted down good and hard.
didnt think about recording the turbine revs, too much panic, so i must work it out the hard way.
video coming in a few days
Cheers
[/quote]
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Look forward to that. Rest assured the I pad will be cranked to volume 11.
All I was thinking is that if you knew the turbine tyre speed, then we could easily know the absorbed power, assuming the torque arm is on the input to turbine and not the housing. If it is the housing then wouldn't we also need to know losses (slip) inside the water turbine itself? In that case the actual bike rear wheel torque figure goes up. Maybe I'm wrong with that bit. I'm not confident, but I instinctively think that turbine losses would affect the calculation if the torque arm was on the housing. Also, I'm struggling to imagine where else it would be. I'll have to study the photo!
As it is we know the crankshaft rpm but torque at the turbine, either input or output, I'm not sure. Am I right there?
Working out the crankshaft torque (and therefore crankshaft power) would seem to be tricky if there is unknown loss at the tyres and/or turbine, assuming the torque arm is on the turbine output.
Cheers anyway. :)
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Torque arm looks to be attached to the input shaft? The same shaft as the tyre. Tricky to get ones head around!
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the crank stroke is 86mm
18" bike back tyre
13" car tyre
this is a paddle wheel turbine, but the car wheel axle is only attached to the paddle wheel. the inner casing of the outer independently upphanged bit which is attached to the 1 meter long arm is internally raffled , which makes the water " grip" the whole kit and kaboodle
there will be a lot of friction between the two wheels.
i must turn the crank and measure how many crank turns in top gear to do one bike wheel rev.
then measure the bike wheel outer diameter, and car wheel outer diameter - i guess
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it all gets a bit too complicated i think.
so all i do is use the max bike revs (at the moment) 7460, and multiply by the kilos 12
7460x12=89520
and the result 89520 is what i have to aim to beat the next time i run the bike after slight tuning.
If the result is worse, then ive done something wrong.
This engine should run to 10000 rpm, but perhaps not with all that friction going on.
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Apologies, I think I was just getting my knickers in a knot. The torque reaction at the housing is equal to the input shaft torque to the paddle, regardless of the fact that there will be significant losses (I imagine) within the turbine.
If that statement is true, then the torque arm tells us the torque at the turbine tyre. Phew! I got there in the end. :)
The rest is easy maths if we know the transmission ratios ie primary drive, gearbox and rear chain. Also the respective tyre rolling diameters, as you say. Maybe tricky to measure due to deformation? How about measuring the radius of each tyre to contact point, once preloaded with your straps? Maybe they deform even more when power is applied?
I'd be surprised if the overall ratio was a nice easy round number, therefore difficult to account for with just one tyre revolution?
What power are you reckoning on/hoping for?
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over 45 hp would be good, and when the best power is sorted, then its time to back off the advance a couple of degrees and tune her with the laughing gas. that should take her up to 60 hp.
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it all gets a bit too complicated i think.
so all i do is use the max bike revs (at the moment) 7460, and multiply by the kilos 12
7460x12=89520
and the result 89520 is what i have to aim to beat the next time i run the bike after slight tuning.
If the result is worse, then ive done something wrong.
This engine should run to 10000 rpm, but perhaps not with all that friction going on.
Ha ha. That is incredible. Stand well back mate. Behind a wall, and get a "friend" to operate it. :D
If my last proposal re turbine shaft/housing is correct then I reckon we could work out a power figure.
As you say, at least the data you have is a datum, regardless.
I wish you good luck. What you are doing is brilliant.
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Once we know the turbine speed and allowing a small amount for losses between the two tyres, don't we have a reasonably accurate bike rwhp figure?
That's what I was initially intimating. Sorry for going around the houses. I enjoyed it! :D
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Once we know the turbine speed and allowing a small amount for losses between the two tyres, don't we have a reasonably accurate bike rwhp figure?
That's what I was initially intimating. Sorry for going around the houses. I enjoyed it! :D
right Propellor, ive been and measured up in the garage. tonights brain teaser for you, cos my brain is shot.
4.5 crank revs turn the bike back wheel 1 rev
bike tyre outer circumferance is 1.965 meters
brakebench car tyre outer circumferance is 1.832 meters
if the bike is running 7460 rpm
what revs is the car wheel doing?
what speed is the bike doing , if it was on the road?
the 1 meter arm is presing 12 kilos
the inner rotor of the turbine is approx 0.3 m diameter
the stroke of the engine is 86mm, if it helps with any future calculations
here is a similar water turbine on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_brake
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Once we know the turbine speed and allowing a small amount for losses between the two tyres, don't we have a reasonably accurate bike rwhp figure?
That's what I was initially intimating. Sorry for going around the houses. I enjoyed it! :D
right Propellor, ive been and measured up in the garage. tonights brain teaser for you, cos my brain is shot.
4.5 crank revs turn the bike back wheel 1 rev
bike tyre outer circumferance is 1.965 meters
brakebench car tyre outer circumferance is 1.832 meters
if the bike is running 7460 rpm
what revs is the car wheel doing?
what speed is the bike doing , if it was on the road?
the stroke of the engine is 86mm, if it helps with any future calculations
Evenin.
We can treat the tyre circumferences (or diameters, doesn't matter) as a ratio to multiply the ratio from crank to bike wheel, although the ratio between the tyres is speed increasing, whereas the ratio from crank to rear wheel is speed decreasing.
Torque transfer works the opposite way. Speed decreasing ratios multiply torque by that amount, always less a percentage of loss, even if the transmission is positive by gears etc. There is no loss of speed if the transmission is positive but there will be a loss if friction is required ie the two tyres. It may be small but it'll be there, you can bet.
7460/4.5=1657 rpm (rear wheel)
1.832/1.965=0.932 (ratio between tyres)
1657/0.932=1777 rpm (turbine, pre slip allowance)
Guessing 2% loss 1777x0.98=1741rpm at turbine.
12kg at 1 metre radius = 12 kgm that's about 120 Nm
120x1741/9550=22kW that's about 30hp.
If I've not made a mistake then we can put back the two percent loss for a representative power at the rear wheel.
So 31hp ( being generous with rounding!)
That'd be about 34 hp at crankshaft.
Anyone spots a numpty mistake please yell!
I'll get back to you on the road speed shortly, once I've got my head around how many inches in a mile etc!
Cheers
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1.965m travelled per rev of rear wheel. Wheel speed is 1657 rpm.
1.965x1657= 3256 metres in a minute.
3256/1000= 3.256 km in a minute
3.256 x60 = 195 km an hour
195 x 0.6 = 117 mph.
Hopefully I've not made a mistake there!
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Geez Propellor, thats pretty clever. I didnt understand where you got the 9550 from to work out the 22 kilowatts . if the bike is only 31 hp then ive got a lot of work to do.
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The 9550 is just a constant in the mechanical power formula when you want to know kW. The 9550 is derived from the basic formula for watts which has 2 pi radians in there.
kW=Nm x rpm/9550.
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........... if the bike is only 31 hp then ive got a lot of work to do.
Do you believe it?
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You were spot on Propellor, I just got word from Tony Foale. 30 hp
Well done.
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You were spot on Propellor, I just got word from Tony Foale. 30 hp
Well done.
Your postman just happens to be called Tony foale, right? You're not talking about THE Tony foale, right?
Gulp.
Hee hee, only joking. No problem. I didn't really do much!
Next question is why?
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Yes Propellor , the Tony Foale. He says 29.3 hp.
Anyway now i gotta study those mathematics a bit harder, so i can work out for myself in future.
here are are a couple of videos of the recent dyno runs
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this is the clutch , and how it will sit on the engine. the outer teeth are gonna get pulled out.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/septengineandclutch003_zps36e57bd9.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/Ellwood%20Hybrid/Ellwood%201300cc%20Supermono/septengineandclutch003_zps36e57bd9.jpg.html)
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Making progress. Looking good.
Difficult to see on the photo, but are all the teeth on there involute gear teeth? I recall you mentioned somewhere in the thread that you're thinking of using a duplex (or even triplex?) roller chain? Is that still in your current thinking?
How will you go on with torque pulses? Will you build some sort of damper into the rear wheel?
Cheers, Andrew.
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Propellor - i have to drop the clutch in rear wheel idea for now, otherwise i wont have a chance to get her running next year. This will have to do, with a sprocket behing the clutch, and a big ally spider to activate (and protect in case of wipeout) the clutch.
torque pulses- they will just have to be there , and do their worst. Hehe
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Hi john.
How's progress going? Making headway?
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those outside teeth on the 1300 clutch are gone, otherwise not much progress apart from the brakebench is fixed up again, and ready to test the 500 Hybrid which now has Wizards of Nos laughing gas system installed (i am awaiting a fuel jet for the Pulsoid)
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those outside teeth on the 1300 clutch are gone, otherwise not much progress apart from the brakebench is fixed up again, and ready to test the 500 Hybrid which now has Wizards of Nos laughing gas system installed (i am awaiting a fuel jet for the Pulsoid)
Looking forward to the results on the brake.
Regarding the last run (and this is probably not the case, but just a, thought) is it possible that there was something not working properly with the water turbine, preventing the turbine from fully loading the bike engine?
What I mean by that is that the engine will only load as high as the driven device will allow. If the driven device peaks artificially at 30 hp (due to an unknown problem)then that will set the limit for what will be shown on the load cell. Could be cavitation or excessive pressure loss? Just a thought and probably not the case.
Good luck. Keep us informed.
Andrew
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Well Propellor, the bearings were pretty much seized up in the turbine axle. I guess that if they had been new ones then the turbine would have maybe spun a bit faster than what it did. In 3 weeks time we will see a pretty interesting video and results.
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Well Propellor, the bearings were pretty much seized up in the turbine axle. I guess that if they had been new ones then the turbine would have maybe spun a bit faster than what it did. In 3 weeks time we will see a pretty interesting video and results.
That might account for some torque which is absorbed but which doesn't show up on the load cell? With any luck!
I'll have to mull over that one a bit harder. ::)
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slight progress before Xmas - the final cut in the bronze head sealing ring bushings, an exhaust bandage and exhaust cooling flange
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/theengine001_zps23063eea.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/theengine001_zps23063eea.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/headfinish001_zps057bc58f.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/headfinish001_zps057bc58f.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/godjul_zps47229328.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/godjul_zps47229328.jpg.html)
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I've just read all seven pages on this project, and I think my brain has just melted! Actually, to call it a project is a total understatement. I'm totally amazed and can only wish you the very best Ellwood. Also, thanks to Propellor, for some of the explanation, though I'm afraid as a non-engineer, I only understood a fraction of it.
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Ive been very out of fettle recently with a double lung embolism, but have managed a tiny bit on the head, and designed a few more bits on the autocad.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1300jan2014003_zps2f4de086.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/1300jan2014003_zps2f4de086.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1300jan2014005_zps2a20ef3f.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/1300jan2014005_zps2a20ef3f.jpg.html)
looking forward to picking up soon, and a possible new record speed in 30 days time on the Flying Kilometer on Ice race with my old 500cc Hybrid - never got around to proper bench testing with the laughing gas.
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Sorry to hear about the lung jobbie. Hope you get well soon. Good luck with the ice run.
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so now this is how the clutch will sit, for now anyway. there will be a spider around it, which activates the clutch, and protect during wipe-outs. now i can design the flywheel/clutch axle with necessary splines.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/framesusp002_zps9cac0878.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/framesusp002_zps9cac0878.jpg.html)
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Hi
Hope you're on the mend and the project is going well.
Have you, at any time through the various incarnations of the design, considered a stepped piston as a possible way of getting around the oiling up? It still keeps the purity of a single cylinder and at the low rpm of your big version probably would be ok? Just a thought.
Hope you don't mind me asking.
Cheers
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Hi, yes ive seen the stepped piston idea. I dont really need it , as ive already got permission to race the 1300 in an 800cc class. it would be good to use the stepped idea in , say, a 250 class, and use the step to have 350cc under the piston to get extra boost pressure.
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Hi
I was thinking more of using the annular space "between" the piston diametres, a la the Norton wulf. As a way of compressing the air without it passing via the space under the piston where the oil is.
Dunno. Just a thought.
I guess that if the oil doesn't spoil combustion then it's probably not worth it anyway?
Cheers
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Hi
no probs with the 2 stroke oil, indeed, i need it to lubricate the rotary valve.
but it is less than ideal when used with laughing gas
and probably very detrimental with NitroMethanol
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slight progress with spacers each side of head, and AN adapters. I am mended anyway, and off the Warfarin.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1300%20an_zpsipulvcgr.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/1300%20an_zpsipulvcgr.jpg.html)
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Looks amazing :)
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Looking forward to seeing the end result. Glad to hear you're mended.
This is gonna be one unusual machine to ride. I'll bet it's pretty quiet mechanically. There's nowt in there to make the "usual" noises. Apart from a girt big piston. ;D
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Great to hear you're on the mend, and can't wait to see the finished bike :)
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Nice little beastie!!!!!!
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i got a few more bits ready, just some oil holes, nitriding, and some coating on the rotary valve left to do.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/moving%20parts_zpsezd718i6.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/moving%20parts_zpsezd718i6.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/1300%20flywheels_zpszakygx4i.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/1300%20flywheels_zpszakygx4i.jpg.html)
and the clutch wont be sitting on the crank- ive opted for a harley primo belt drive, with a gearbox to be baked into the swingarm. a bit more work, but it will be the business.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/primo_zpsuvoancf6.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/primo_zpsuvoancf6.jpg.html)
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great stuff, good luck with the remainder.... on the home strait now
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Brilliant! This mega project is back!
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Very nice :)
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just to digress from motorbikes a while, my rocket sled is ready. the race is in 2 weeks time, on the ice.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/rocket_zpstnxoln9k.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/rocket_zpstnxoln9k.jpg.html)
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With a mosheen as cool ass looking as the "rocket sled" 🚀🚀 you may digress away from bikes as much as you like as far as I'm concerned :) :)....cheers, Michael
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Holy smoke! Where is the race being held?
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look mum... no brakes!!!.... ffs!.... what madness is this???
wherever the race is, I 'm hoping there are HUGE runoff areas .... ;D
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wherever the race is, I 'm hoping there are HUGE runoff areas .... ;D
There is Steve - it's called space. You might just stop before you hit Saturn....
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Sweden. 24, 25 feb. there will be a live streaming, so i will post it here when i know the link. there is a super duper hydrogen peroxide rocket coming from USA , the yellow one in the poster, which is gonna try and beat the present world record of 249 mph, which slammin Sammy Miller set 35 years ago. heres a link to Sammys record so you know what to expect. and a link to show how my little Hybrid rocket might work. (if she doesnt explode)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/zzzarsunda_zpsw34cvfhj.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/zzzarsunda_zpsw34cvfhj.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/back_zpsxizfjwrd.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/back_zpsxizfjwrd.jpg.html)
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/merocket_zpseuuhmwov.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/merocket_zpseuuhmwov.jpg.html)
last year i burnt the back end out. now ive fitted a graphite venturi, which should survive
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/rrr3_zpsnuri5zbw.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/rrr3_zpsnuri5zbw.jpg.html)
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ye gods!... what G force ?? ... looked like 247 mph in about 100yds !!!
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ye gods!... what G force ?? ... looked like 247 mph in about 100yds !!!
10G
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Would it be fair to say that you don't lead the quiet life? ;D ;D ;D
👍
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Would it be fair to say that you don't lead the quiet life? ;D ;D ;D
👍
considering my eternal destitution, i dont really do so badly i guess
ps, i just got special permission to ride both my Hybrid bikes a parade lap of the Manx, and show them at Jurby too
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brilliant.... hopefully will be there with #1 son... look forward to meeting up
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(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj292/ellwoodhybrid/marks%20foto%20rocket1_zpshdcpeayo.jpg) (http://s275.photobucket.com/user/ellwoodhybrid/media/marks%20foto%20rocket1_zpshdcpeayo.jpg.html)
i survived to race another day.
just after this photo (by Mark Thomas) the plastic cartridge got plugged, and the flame melted through the rocket pipe at the front, upwards through 3 blast plates towards my chest. luckily i had 4 plates just there, so no worries.
enjoy the video
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Rowntrees fruit pastille anyone? 8)
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Better luck next time John.
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Very frustrating for you, but still a WOW! from me :)
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Blimey !!! that looks a volatile beastie......I think I would rather dangle my nether regions in a tank of Piranha's :o, At least I could kiss em goodbye and know when the removal was happening :'(....If I owned a hat it would be off to you sir
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Completely and utterly mad ! .... very pleased you survived the event....
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this is so cool, i love it
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Sorry, the robbing theiving Photobucket lot have held me to ransom for 3rd party showing my photos. I shant be paying them. Will try a different site to get them loaded up with. Ellwood