Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: squirrelciv on July 09, 2009, 07:56:19 PM
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Surely we need to agree a direction for the club before we start planning show stand equipment. To my recollection Uttoxeter was the first show attended in at least 2 years. While we're chatting about it, what is the purpose of displaying at shows anyway?? Is it to boost members?? If so, members to what exactly?? I mean what is the Thumperclub?? Do we have a commitee?? When does it meet?? Who elected the members?? What subs do we pay?? What do members receive in return?? Are we affiliated to MAG still?? What events do we attend?? Do we have any form of formal agenda/meeting/reason to exist??
Yes we have a forum lurked at by many but used by the few, but there really isn't anything much past that is there??
Personally may I suggest we solve the bigger questions first before we spend the only funds we have on display equipment we may never use. I mean, who going to be responsible for storing this stuff?? Who is coordinator?? (might have prevented the ticket fiasco if we had an events organiser) What do we wish to achieve and what events (per year) are we targeting?? If we go off half cocked I fear another 'Best bike of 2007/8/9' competition scenario.
For my 2p worth, I like it as it is. A great forum well used by the trusty few (and lurked at but the rest), a casual club of chaps who meet up (or not) at events around the country to camp, talk bollocks, and have a laugh. And we don't need an advertising display for any of that. ;D
Just my opinion mind, you crack on if you want.
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Well said, Pat . We are in danger of rehashing an old debate here which wasn't resolved the last time.
Rob .
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See THIS (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/one.pot/manifesto/manifesto.html) (recently thrashed out and about to be sent out, although I added a couple of clarifications after reading Pat's post).
All opinons gratefully recieved.
I realise that the membership is in a state of limbo at the moment, but then so too are the subs. My intention is exactly as stated in a previous debate: to start asking for subs again after the next newsletter.
The club is MAG-affiliated, but our latest batch of cards were only sent to the treasurer around 12 days ago. I planned to send them out with the newsletter.
Ticket-fiasco? I'm not sure I'd go that far. George Beer only sent ours out in the week preceding the show. Some of the people who displayed bikes had bought tickets already and hadn't considered showing their bikes until I asked them. However, the tickets did get used by people who attended the show. I had some left over but not many.
I was asked fair few times over the weekend to consider making a return to the Stafford show and I agreed that it was a good idea, especially if we don't get into the mad rush and hassle of making fancy one-use-only stands. The general viewpoint is that, as I stated in my post, the shows are a good beano for those people who show their bikes because they are entitled to free entry and camping. We also picked up 17 trial memberships at the show* and I have been receiving more by post every day since.
Hands up to the comp disaster (although all the free magazine space wasn't a waste). It fell down when I asked for votes and that turned into a long and mostly fruitless wait for replies.
I'd expect members to use the club for what they want. If, like you, they prefer to visit the forum and turn up at casual meets then that's fine, do that and ignore the more organised side of the club such as committees and the like. Others prefer the more stuctured events like Steve D's fantastic annual rallies and they go with that sort of thing.
GC
* For the show we gave away free trial membership that included one free newsletter and 6 months full site access - and yes I still have to iron this out with Steve H, but that's for us to sort.
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* For the show we gave away free trial membership that included one free newsletter and 6 months full site access - and yes I still have to iron this out with Steve H, but that's for us to sort.
I have had salesmen do similar things, usually a good kicking behind the bike shed dealt with the issue. So Steve H if you need me to hold him whilst you kick whilst chanting the mantra - "Only AFTER I have agreed!" a couple of dozen times should suffice.
;D ;D ;D
R
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The topic had moved from "club stands" to "what is the thumperclub" the original comments was likely to be lost so I have split it
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Fair point GC, fiasco was a little tough ;D but the point remains that there was a lack of coordination and firm commitments in advance of the show.
I think before we start charging any membership fees and offering any sort of service or schedule we should be damn sure we can fulfill our side of the bargain. If you make a statement such as there will be 4 news letters a year/an annual rally/attendance at 2 shows etc etc and charge someone £XYZ I think it's only right that you deliver. To do this you'll need a strong, committed base of people ready to organise and do those tasks and I just wonder whether we do. :-\
Maybe a member's poll might throw some light on the subject. Who would commit to some sort of role, be ready to turn up and man a stand. My bet is very few and of those that say they would fewer still will actually turn up. It'll be an interesting benchmark to see how many positive replies this thread or the 'Manifeso' achieves. (penny says less than a dozen different names)
I'll be honest, I'm not going to volunteer, not at this stage. I have helped in the past and would help again, but not until things are solid and sure.
Like I say, the casual manner we have currently suits me fine. Meeting up informally at organised events and chatting here on-line is all I want from the thumperclub. Others may want more, I just think before you go off advertising yourselves and expecting money, you sort out what it is your selling.
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I concur Pat. themoudie X (my mark)
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Good points Pat and I understand your concerns.
One simple fact to consider is that the club cannot host any sort of event without Public Liability Insurance. I'm not risking my house on the chance that an 'informal' meet advertised via the club goes horribly wrong. Bad things have happened to other clubs.
If we need PLI we need funds. Even members who opt for full website access will have to be charged a fee that covers their PLI cover, imho.
Newsletters - I've comitted myself to the terms of the manifesto, it's as simple as that. In the past I've been too proud to send out thin newsletters, but now I realise that anything is better than nothing. It will be done, six times a year, not four.
Annual Rally - The annual rally is, as proved by Uttoxeter, as easy to organise as you want it to be. In the past Steve Dalby, Boyd Brooks, Steve Hayward and I have put huge efforts into individual rallies. These rallies were a success, but the cost in man hours is too much for anyone, year after year. On the other hand, Uttoxeter was barely organised at all and we all had a nice time, didn't we?
Shows - The decision to invest in lightweight display materials was made so that it would be easier to transport and assemble a showstand, making it easier to attend such events. If club members have an objection to this then I will fund these items form my own pocket. If I have to man the stand myself then no worries, I've been at most of the shows over the last decade. As it is, experience shows that people are always willing to lend some time over a weekend to man the stand, especially if they are at the show for free.
I think the best thing members can do is enjoy their membership at the level they choose. The best thing I can do is to stick to the schedule laid out in the manifesto.
What I am not prepared to do at the moment is to create a committee structure to administer the club. This is for two reasons: nobody will volunteer and it won't help to achieve the aims of the manifesto.
Here's a proposition, if you want to renew your membership when asked to do so then pay the funds. If you are not convinced that the fee is justified, as an existing member you can opt for 6 months free internet membership to give you time to see if things have improved. This would only apply to members already on the list.
Seems fair enough to me.
GC
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To some extent we are a virtual club, although we do exist. ummmm So we can be anything our membership want us to be and that may be more than one thing. Our membership is more than appear on here and many may be happy with a newsletter 6 times a year (newsletter, not magazine or newspaper) Others may just like a blather on here. SOme will want to meet up. All that I will nail down, is if you want something you have to be prepared to do it. I would love to come to rallies, camping weekends etc, but frankly at the moment kids, lack of bike that works, wife working all hours etc etc probably means that I will not make it along. Thus I will read the reports with a tinge of envy but neither vote for or against them as I am not willing to make them happen. I am not convinced about banners etc at shows, but that is not my thing. However if it is stuff some members want to do and they will make it happen and the club be a better place for it, then I have no real worries about my 'membership' being spent that way. Ditto PLI - I may never make use of the potential, but I love the pics and the blather - so OK by me.
R
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Annual Rally - The annual rally is, as proved by Uttoxeter, as easy to organise as you want it to be. In the past Steve Dalby, Boyd Brooks, Steve Hayward and I have put huge efforts into individual rallies. These rallies were a success, but the cost in man hours is too much for anyone, year after year. On the other hand, Uttoxeter was barely organised at all and we all had a nice time, didn't we?
The over riding thing about Uttoxeter was that the Thumper club attended an existing show and merely put up a stand ,using it as an annual rally,under the umbrella of the VJMC .We all appreciate the efforts of those in the past who have organised the club annual rally in the past .As a result I will always have a soft spot for Dent ,for example .
Let's not kid ourselves , Uttoxeter came about following a lot of debate regarding the lack of annual rally ,born out of sheer frustration and to my mind was an easy option.The touting of Uttoxeter came about following the Srx event in Cologne being mentioned as an alternative .A number of people voiced an interest ,me included.For various reasons only two members were able to attend.There is no escaping the fact that at the beginning of this year we as a club were incapable of organising our own rally .I would have loved to attended at Uttoxeter ,but would have gone as much to see what else was there as wishing to renew old friendships and meet new members.
Surely the later is what makes a club annual rally .?
Rob .
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You are right GC, Uttoxeter was a great success, but it would have been no lesser a success if we didn't man a stand. We could all have turned up as individuals, pitched our tents in a circle, seen the show, had a few beers and had a laugh without the need to run a stall. We do that at the Dragon. No need for PLI if we just turn up is there?? I mean the 1000's that walked through the turnstyles didn't have PLI did they?? Also if you're going to put on a rally why not charge £10 for a ticket?? 20 turn up and you have £200 toward the premium of a one-off event.
No problem with paying subs to host the forum, though I believe the bank account is/was full enough to cope for a few years yet, but coughing up for PLI and a newsletter that may not be needed/arrive...
All I'm saying [and bear in mind what started this debate] If you wish to spend the clubs reserves on advertising displays (£100 a pop!) make sure you're going to get your monies worth! If membership fees after costs generated £5 profit, each advertising display would need to rake in 7 new members per year (if they last 3 years) to cover their costs. How many members do we get from shows?? When we did Stafford I don't recall bagging that many and we discounted membership, reducing the profitability of each of them.
Yes you're right, I'm talking cold, hard cash. Not very spiritual. But that's what you're talking about here. Spending the memberships money on club material that may not be any benefit or get used 6 months down the road.
This is why I'm saying sort out the other stuff first. What is the Thumperclub?? What does it's members want?? and where is it going?? If the answers to that lot is shows, stands and a greater membership knock yourself out and buy Sach & Sach.
BTW only 5 commentators so far. My 1p bet is looking safe ;D
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At the risk of offending Graham, who I know has the clubs best interest at heart, I tend to agree with Pat. There just isn't enough support within the club to be organising events as we did in the past. Even the hardcore supporters, myself included, have sought other things to waste their money and spare time on. The still on-going, and confused, membership debate is certainly not helping matters either.
IMHO I think it's time to move on. We had some excellent times at the Annual Rally, but times have changed. If it's the same few people constantly propping up the same problems then as Dylan Thomas put it: "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got!".
I'm very keen to support the club, as I've met some very good people through it, and if you need the occasional few quid for the web site let me know. But I think all the other trapping annual rally, newsletter, t-shirts etc. need to be let go. This forum is now the heart of the club and should be kept going as the main focus! There are unlimited possibilities for us to meet under the umbrella of other events - no organising needed, less s**t to carry, plenty of potential etc. etc.!
Steps of soapbox and exits stage left.
Boyd
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I’ve been sitting back watching how this thread goes. I also tend to agree with Pat & Boyd. Having been involved with clubs at a committee level before I know all too well how much time and organisation is needed to run a successful club and successful events. With committee meetings, AGM’s, print deadlines and insurance matters it can easily end up with you spending far more time organising things than actually getting out there and riding a bike!!
All clubs seem to have a ‘hard core’ of members who are ‘active’ in contributing in one way or another to the club. The Thumper Club is no different – look at the forums and the majority of the posts are by the same 15-20 people the rest are happy to browse from the sidelines. Same thing with rallies, most of the time it will be the same people attending club events.
As I see it the Thumper club is now already an internet based club. We have a great website with a very lively forum and the capability to arrange informal get togethers without too much effort. Personally, I much prefer this sort of informality to the traditional clubs with its committees and politics.
I think we should bite the bullet and say we are an internet bike club. Do we need to charge any membership fee as such? Steve H has said in the past that the actual cost of running the website is minimal and I’m sure that if money were needed to maintain the site that the ‘senior members’ would contribute – I’d send £10 anytime because I enjoy the site.
Do we need to advertise ourselves through bike shows? – Probably not. How many actual members did Uttoxeter get us? Many people who picked up a leaflet or magazine probably won’t take it any further – we are a minority interest group after all. Personally I usually carry some business cards in my wallet with the clubs website address and when I see a nice looking thumper when I’m out I put one on the seat or bars. I’m sure if a few of us did that we could probably recruit more members than a bike show.
Do we need a newsletter/magazine? Maybe. I used to be magazine editor for the COC and I know that a magazine is usually the single most expensive drain on a clubs resources. If we decide we are an internet club the magazine could be published online as it is now and save a lot of money for the club.
As Boyd said, it’s time to drop the trappings of the past. Keep the website, keep the forum, keep the informal meet up’s and go forward.
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As Boyd said, it’s time to drop the trappings of the past. Keep the website, keep the forum, keep the informal meet up’s and go forward.
I'm inclined to agree ,Steve .The only difference I would see is some form of club merchandise . A selection of stuff that can be ordered money up front and then the order placed with the supplier.If no one wants this job , I'm happy to take it on .Monies raised from this can support the running of the website.
In terms of this , surely there is enough money in the coffers to support the site for a while at least.
Rob .
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As we seem to be looking for input I'll step in at this point. I was trying to avoid undue input as I am not able to volunteer my time with anything like the regularity GC, the Steves, Boyd, Pat etc. put in (and apologies to the people covered by the etc. ;D). Thank you for your work.
What I see as the club's strong points are that we ride and we talk bikes. There is little in the way of the politics, paperwork and comittee guff that makes me avoid other clubs of which I remain a member. I'm happy with the enlightened dictatorship, I'm happy to pay my subs (don't want bits of paper sent; can I be a full member and opt out of the paper magazine?), I will attend as many meets as possible and do what I can there. The PLI is important and we should have it, plus I'll happily pay for this site.
I think I'm with Rob (was it?) who questioned the payback of kit for a club stand, but that's only an opinion. Maybe we look at this again when we've got numbers on new members from Utoxeter? Can I make another suggestion? Lets get some business cards we can dish out to prospective members anywhere?
Merchandise is risky, Stock can be on the books forever but it sounds good. Can I suggest we need something humorous/different along the lines of the MZ club "wouldn't be seen dead on one of those" or our own "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" rather than your basic club logo on a mug? If we all buy a shirt or mug and profits go to the stock, we start at break even? Paypal waiting here, especially if I can pay my subs at the same time. Super membership with a T-shirt?
Andy
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I think I'm with Rob (was it?) who questioned the payback of kit for a club stand, but that's only an opinion. Maybe we look at this again when we've got numbers on new members from Utoxeter? Can I make another suggestion? Lets get some business cards we can dish out to prospective members anywhere?
Merchandise is risky, Stock can be on the books forever but it sounds good. Can I suggest we need something humorous/different along the lines of the MZ club "wouldn't be seen dead on one of those" or our own "Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow" rather than your basic club logo on a mug? If we all buy a shirt or mug and profits go to the stock, we start at break even? Paypal waiting here, especially if I can pay my subs at the same time. Super membership with a T-shirt?
Andy
If I read this right , Andy ,what I'm suggesting is any profit from kit sales goes towards The maintaining of the website and other administration .The purchase of banners etc , which will be used now and again , is some what frivolous to say the least,IMHO of course.
I agree merchandise is risky.What I propose is nothing is ordered without prepayment . As to the format then yes , a limited range . As I say , I'm happy to take this on and take it forward . Keep it simple ,with a tight rein .
Rob .
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I'm with Andy M it seems a lot of common sense. I like this club for exactly the same reasons.
Being Hamstrung financially etc I rarely have a day off at the weekend so attending anything at the moment is impossible. This makes the forum my only link with the club and will be for a while, but I would be happy to pay subs to let the club continue in its own meandering way.
beeman
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Keep it simple ,with a tight rein .
Sounds good ;D
Minimum order quantities are the usual issue. If you get to the point of needing suppliers drop me a mail. I've some contacts who do our freebies at work that might do a mates rate deal. On mugs they seem to talk in 50's, on shirts it gets gets cheaper at 50 but they will do 10's. I don't think we really want 2500 Thumperclub pens!
Andy
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Interesting stuff. What's worrying is that several people hadn't realised that you've been able to pay a reduced internet-only subscription for a while now. You get no paper and your sub only covers the website and PLI costs.
The other thing to consider is that when we last put this to a vote a lot of members opted to stick with the higher sub and paper newsletter. One problem with the debate here is that it's here, online, and doesn't include the members who are not on the 'net and/or prefer not to visit the forums. A consensus of forum users isn't enough to dictate club policy.
If we turn our back on the show issue and concentrate on the membership details, the simple fact is that an internet option exists and was included in the manifesto. That, surely is enough to satisfy the concerns raised above? If a member wants to interact with the club without using the 'net then they can opt to pay a higher sub which fully covers the cost of their printed newsletter, etc. The internet members would not be paying for the paper members.
Given this I feel that the arguments are groundless. I can't see why the internet members would deny other members access to the club if there was no additional financial burden.
In an attempt to set this in stone, if you want an internet club then pay the internet sub. The maintenance of the 'paper' members needn't concern you, nor cost you any money. The work that is required to maintain an internet club is mostly conterminous with the that required for a 'paper' club.
GC
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Minimum order quantities are the usual issue.
There's way much more to it than that. I'm lucky in that my wife is a print specialist and she guided me through our early forays in merchandise. Without her advice our shirts would probably be the same sort of lacklustre digi-print items that other clubs knock out. Hands up how many members are still wearing club t-shirts many years after they bought them, lots I'm guessing. We went for the quality route and to do this you need to pre-order set amounts of kit. We stuck with screenprinting because it gives the best quality, but you can't order 4 shirts at a time, you have to order a batch to make the price attractive. Digi-printed shirts are cheap, can be ordered in ones or twos, but will not last beyond a couple of years.
I'm not sure we've had a problem with merchandise, other than the fact that we haven't renewed our stocks for while. What we had sold well and was well-made.
Funding the club through merchandise is a risky venture. Merchandise can supplement the funds, but sometimes, if the stock lays unsold, it can deplete resources. Trust me, I know. The subs are the only guaranteed way to meet costs.
I'll do a bit of calculating later and get back to you on what the two rates of membership are likely to be. In each case the amount will cover costs and no more. As I have said, we cannot consider operating the club without PLI cover and, from experience, the most effective (and cheapest) way of getting this is via MAG or the BMF. Let's see what the subs will be before getting het up about PLI.
GC
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IMHO I think it's time to move on. We had some excellent times at the Annual Rally, but times have changed.
Okay, point taken, but if we all just turn up at Dent would the meet be as enjoyable as previous rallies without Steve D's magnificent organisation? Would it be as much fun without the Marquee, the food, the hot drinks on tap and the organised rideouts?
GC
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Still mulling over many of the other issues but I have to say the club merchandise has always been excellent, a possible option to printed clothing I might suggest is embroidered logos, something we tend to always use at work. Looks good, lasts and if you go to the right place can be a similar price to printed (sometimes cheaper!)
Although not as cheap as they once were I've had good service from Lizard workwear (now Safety direct iirc) in Swansea. No minimum order, no setup charge and decent gear (also a forces discount if you know any servicemen/women.... ;) )
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IMHO I think it's time to move on. We had some excellent times at the Annual Rally, but times have changed.
Okay, point taken, but if we all just turn up at Dent would the meet be as enjoyable as previous rallies without Steve D's magnificent organisation? Would it be as much fun without the Marquee, the food, the hot drinks on tap and the organised rideouts?
Totally agree Gc ,and I for one will be forever in Steve D 's debt as a result of the magnificent greeting myself and the memsahib had , having swum to Dent in 2007.The hot meal and drink was fantastic.,but people can only do this for so long due to the time and commitment required to organise such an event.Times have changed and I think we can draw up quite a calender of informal events between the members ,across the country to allow the maximum opportunities for members to meet and socialise .
No one is saying that there is a problem with merchandise ,but whats available ?How much ?How do I get it ? I can't be the only one to be asking this.What I said earlier was any profit from merchandise goes towards the running of the club , not fund it .That would be asking too much .Any monies raised are ploughed straight back in . Merchandise is an easy way to raise money.It has no other purpose ,I mean it's not free is it.If stock remains unsold then it's not being punted correctly . Other clubs advertise and push the merchandise . It's not being driven by money ,but nothing sells if it's in a box in someones house .
Rob .
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Okay, point taken, but if we all just turn up at Dent would the meet be as enjoyable as previous rallies without Steve D's magnificent organisation? Would it be as much fun without the Marquee, the food, the hot drinks on tap and the organised rideouts?
GC
Without wishing to in any way denegrate Steve D's magnificent efforts, my answer would be yes. Llanthony, while smaller due to the time of year has been one of the best bike events I've ever done and that of course lacks all the "extra's" so thoughtfully laid on at Dent. I sure we all appreciate Steve D's effort, but to me the main item in what he organised was the camping, we turned up knowing there'd be space (not a problem in Novenber if we know it's open, a huge problem in July). After that, I think it's the usual horrid question of what people want to do. If we are trying to get new members, I'd ask if we are trying to meet their expectations based on other clubs or trying to introduce them to the TC way of doing it?
Apologies if it was me who started the confusion over net membership. It's a personal thing, I understand the differences and fully support them, I'd simply be willing to pay full price for the net only if I still avoided bits of paper. Add a box to the membership renual and I'll add a voluntary contribution to the tune of the difference.
You are spot on with the notion that the people here are only part of the club. I do hope my comments are only taken as the views of one member, not in any way trying to change the club in a way that would reduce it's value to the guy's who aren't active on line.
Andy
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Some interesting points, as someone who often travels quite a long way to attend the annual rally I'm all for informal meets around the country (up here is good ;) ) but I still think there should be one nominated rally/event/meet which is designated as the primary "annual". What form that should take is very much open to debate, there is nothing wrong at all with tacking onto a pre-existing event for instance.
If we meet up at the Dragon/Elefant/Monotreffen etc etc etc then good, but it's nice to have a primary event to pen into the calendar.
As always, imho and only the opinions of an individual member :)
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t's not being driven by money ,but nothing sells if it's in a box in someones house .
That's not the case with us, from what I know we are simply sold out. Boyd would know more about this, I believe he was the last custodian of the club t-shirts, badges and patches.
GC
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Well that seems to be sorted then. Out of 242 forum members we had a brief debate consisting of 10 contributors and shall be forging blindly ahead to where we started ;D
A result! Everyone of us would fair well in Brussels.
Me, I'm off to my shed, safe there.
Just incase this should continue may I state for the record...I AGREE TO EVERYTHING!!
(Exit stage left)
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Oi !
You can't just bury your head in your shed . You started this .
Rob .
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I've got a sore head.....!!!!
Does that count ? Got to get a new hat too!
Jethro
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My turn. Erm, I want the club to continue. I also want to one day come to another rally, as my record to date is very poor to say the least!! I am happy to pay full membership as a proper fanzine is nicer to read. Oh, the Manifesto makes sense as well.
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As a newby who's never been to a rally, paid any subs or the like then my view possibly isn't the most relevant, however:
1) Merchandise: I'd be interested in a tee-shirt and/or a mug - but mot much else
2) Subs: I don't mind paying a sub, as long as it's not excessive
3) Annual Rally: Not sure I'll ever make one (and if I did it's unlikely I'd bring the XBR anyway!) so don't feel strongly about it.
4) Newsletter: Don't feel all that strongly about it, but happy to receive it electronically rather than a paper copy
5) Club stand: Don't attend the type of events where the stand would be, so don't feel strongly about it.
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Thought I'd better stop lurking and add my thoughts/ramblings to the debate:
What do people want out of the club and what does the club want to offer? Sounds like there is a some disconnect here ATM. Do they want to pay subs and get all the formal stuff, regular newsletters, AGMs, regular rallies, booked months/years in advance, or do they simply want to interact with our like minded individuals in a more relaxed way. Hop onto the forums as much/little as you like, attend the odd informal gathering of fellow members, etc.?
I think we're at a stage where there is clearly a spark of life in the club, but it has certainly dwindled from it's early beginnings. I think the club was so successful in the early years because of the dedication of a few key individuals, a formal committee to run it (treasurer, chairman, newsletter editor, events organiser, etc.) and the impetus and excitement that usually comes with starting something new. I'm not suggesting that people have become bored, but it's cleat that it takes a lot of time and dedication to run a club of other than a dozen or so mates meeting up from time to time.
I believe the club can only get to a size that the administration can handle. How large do want this club to be and how much administration isn't to get to this size? Perhaps we should bury the notion of having a formal "club" and instead think about it as more of a "community". (I'm sure there are probably a number of advantages having a club, liability ins urnace, maybe, but I'm not qualified to comment on this)
The way I see it is that the main thing that draws "members" (do we still have an official membership list?) together is the website.
You can ask questions on pretty much any topic, (single cylinder bike related or not) and get useful/thought provoking/humorous/ answers in turn, from the splendid community we have here today.
You can show off your pride and joy in the photographs section, you can ask a technical question or you can find out if fellow thumperers are meeting up anywhere. You can even tell some jokes and have a good rant!
You could do some of the above via a newsletter (Q&As might take a while though!), but for me the site is a much better medium for members to interact with one and other and to self author their own living newsletter.
I think it is time to let go of the newsletter and instead concentrate on the website. From what I can see the newsletter has for a long time now been a constant bone of contention with constant pressure on getting so many copies out a year, appeals to members for content, printing, posting, etc.
The paper newsletter had it's day, but I think that medium is now too outdated and it's time to move on. A sensible alternative was to also publish the newsletter online. A more environmentally friendly solution, this still carries the stresses of deadlines and getting enough contributors.
Far better to build up an online community of individuals with a like minded interest, who then generate their own dynamic content. It might be useful to create a few new forum sections (rally reports, bike reviews, camping/biking kit reviews, for example) that one might find in a newsletter, that members would more readily contribute to than submitting an article, by a deadline date for publication.
If we want to build up the membership, then push the online presence. Stickers/mugs/t-shirts with club's URL, for example. There is the benefit of members being able to purchase merchandise and showing pride in the club, as well as freely advertising the URL.
I agree with Smudge (I think) on having an annual rally, as this is a great excuse for us to put a date in the diary and to maybe return something to the club. This could also be used as a means of presenting the "public face" of the club and drumming up more awareness of the club, but I don't think this should be the primary reason.
Apologies for the above ramblings, but in summary I think what I'm trying to say is, I have met some great people through the Thumper Club and it would be a great shame for it to just fade into obscurity. It seems to be the membership is dwindling (I'll admit to being guilty of not putting in the dedication and "stepping up to the plate" as much as I would like to) and something needs to change.
I wonder if we can streamline the administration and perhaps re-invent the club in an Internet only guise (I suspect there a very few non-Internet members). Websites aren't free and it's clear that Steve H dedicates a lot of his spare time to the running of this site. If he is prepared to carry on providing the framework and for the community members to continue contributing the content, what more do we need? As for running costs, I'm sure a registration system, where registrants are asked to make a small donation via a clickable Paypal link would suffice, or indeed a nominal fee of say £5, again via Paypal, would also work.
Simon
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Hi from another lurker, I'd be quite happy to pay subs for either version of the club, real or virtual but the last thing I'd want to see is the club folding. I'd agree that a newsletter isn't essential, unless you don't have a computer, the trouble is that events would have to be listed well in advance, unlike on the forum when it can be announced as and when. Getting people to write stuff for a mag can be a pain from what I've seen in this and other clubs, but it's much easier to do it on the forum and we get colour pics too. Annual rally, how big and what style of rally? Time for a seperate thread? Wouldn't mind a T-shirt if theres any going! Pretty much go along with what Simon has come up with though.
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Well balanced response Simon, I can only agree with all your points, I did'nt spend as much time with you this year due to your involvement with the local cricket scene but agree totally that the annual rally provides a place where people can meet, and renew face to face relationships and talk bollocks together for a few hours. The Dragon Rally does provide this but does not appeal to all participants in the web community, in fact cannot, due to geographic restrictions, I would dearly like to meet some of the more profund contributors to the web conversations, but some thousands of miles separate some of us. The club has become bigger than it's original aims and is all the better for this, the only linking factor is the website (many thanks SH) so we are left with a divers group of people who share a love of single cylinder bikes (I think) and wish to meet (talk to) like minded persons.
See you again January 2010, on a field somewhere bloody cold in North Wales,
Furry John,
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Some excellent points raised Simon .The idea of extra forum sections is interesting .Possibly a ' rolling ' newsletter to which members can add articles perhaps ?I know this works well on other sites.
There's plenty that can be done with the club , but as Pat said there are only a few entering the fray at the moment , therefore arguably it's the minority who are making the running here.
Oh and Furry , don't go the the Dragon in January.You'll have a long wait old chum . ;)
Rob
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Oi !
You can't just bury your head in your shed . You started this .
Rob .
I'm not burying my bonce, I'm admitting defeat! Totally different thing. ;D Whatever is said here won't change anything. Nothing will come of this and nothing will change. We are not going to form any sort of elected committee or come up with a firm agenda and we're not going to reform the club for better or worse.
What we will do is type away till our fingers hurt and then stay exactly the same. I'm sure we'll buy the advertising stuff, go off and order 50 mugs make a plan to appear at some show and the same old same old will/will not appear and generate the same result as all the other times.
And this is no bad thing, it's the thumper way, it's what we do. ;D
Would like to respond to one point raised by GC though before rolling off the topic. I quote:
"Given this I feel that the arguments are groundless. I can't see why the internet members would deny other members access to the club if there was no additional financial burden."
In answer to the question contained in the quotation, I've no objection at all. I'm mearly asking everyone to consider whether this is something we should be persuing. So far the majority of responses seems to suggest 'no', yet I feel some how we will in the usual 'Thumper' way. Also, apart from the Irish lads (and I'm pretty sure they lurk the website) Who exactly are these non internet members anyway?? I've turned up to most if not all Thumperclub events and I can't think a soul there who isn't a [regular] forum member!
If you want a physical club presence at shows, If you want to produce printed club newsletters and distribute them by post. Crack on, enjoy. But are you sure you'll have the support to make it a success?? How many articles are there waiting to be printed now?? Has the phone rung off the wall with non-forum members clammering for the latest edition?? Were we beating members off with a stick following the call for bikes to display??
We currently have 244 forum members. 244!!! I don't reckon I could name you 2 dozen who contribute. The fact is (and this is to our collective credit) we're not 'clubby' type people. most of us just want to ride our bikes, have a bit of a natter about nowt really, look at nice piccies (of bikes) and maybe bump into one another every now and then for a beer and a p155take.
Now I really have got blunt pinkies so I'm off to my shed again to soak 'em in some 10w40.
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Oh and Furry , don't go the the Dragon in January.You'll have a long wait old chum
Yeah, Yeah, can't wait can I,
Furry
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To be honest an internet based club rather suits me. Its a bit like being able to drop into the bar for a chat with bike mates any time. I have a bottle of excellent Coopers (Australian) bottle conditioned Pale Ale in front of me as well.
The odd meet up is also excellent, internet only would be a bit dull. Like a virtual pint.
It doesn't have to be a club rally. I seem to meet most Thumperistas at the Dragon.
I am highly unlikely to be able to make an AGM due to shifts and family commitments so forum based debate rather suits me. My local club is okay but they spend far too much time on business and far too little drinking, eating and a****ng about.
Good beer this. Afterwards I have a Tsingtao and something Californian awaiting
Richard.
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and something Californian awaiting
Richard.
Blond with Big Tits ???
Jethro
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and something Californian awaiting
Richard.
Blond with Big Tits ???
Jethro
Nah Jethro, thats whats sticking out of the back of yur head after hitting it off the road twice! ;D
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Agree with Simon's erudite speel and Pat's reiteration.
Hats off to to GC for the original idea and coercion of a band of 'individuals'!
My thanks to all whom have held 'office' whilst, I've been a member!
My appreciation to SteveH for his dedication to maintaining this site throughout the clubs machinations!
Newsletters like monthly mags are clutter, absorb time, effort, cash and give angst in huge quantity. Online with maybe some more 'Fora' headings 'll be fine.
Rallies! Yeah well, whatever rocks your boat. I tend to be a bit non-plussed, but if your into the 'Band of Brothers' thing, go for it! If I can say "Hello" and have a blether over a pint of 'whatever', whilst sharing a curry, great.
As SteveL put it last time we were chastising ourselves "The Thumper Club is like a comfy old leather arm chair. If I can collapse into into for half an hour and chill with a blether and a snifter, fine." If you start poking me with a s****y stick, I'll nae bother. I don't need the hassle, I can find that outside my door, without inviting it into my house!
PayPal or Direct Transfer to pay the 'Nanny Fee' and keep the URL running, no problem.
In the words of the inimitable Dave Allen " May your God go with you!" I'll keep popping up here and bump into you out there, until someone flicks the switch.
Keep on boppin', Bill.
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Nicely put Simon.
I'm guessing a lot of us have been on Horizons Unlimited, AdvRider, UKGS etc. that are web based only. I think they work. Like our own club they are run as a benign dictatorship (not sure about UKGS I avoid it) with expansion driven by site activity and online word of mouth. HUBB is very professional and focused, ADVrider very American and rather adversarial and I won't decribe UKGS on a family site. I do believe there is a niche for the TC in there. Our combined knowledge on such diverse subjects as XBR's, Winter rallies and so on would make an expanded website a serious source of info IMHO.
I do however agree with a point GC made somewhere up there. We are of course online and active. If there is a membership out there that isn't, it's their club too. I think before we decided to stop the paper, it needs a final hurrah. How about we put a few questions on the membership renual? If a decent majority are either online already or will be happy to go online in say 2011 we make the switch in a fair and controlled manner. If we get a hundred renuals saying they want the paper, then those of us saying we don't need it should accept not everyone agrees.
Andy
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Pat, you're wrong about one thing, this debate has changed several things already and has been a very good thing. We've aired many important issues because of it.
From your last reply it seems that what is most important to you from your original post was the issue of a committee structure, is that right? The majority of replies have been firmly against going down the beurocratic route so please don't think that I have merely taken a unilateral decision to dismiss the reinstatment of a committee.
Thank you Andy for backing up one important point, this is a discussion amongst the on-line members only and we still have to consider the needs of those who choose not to use the forums. When we last formally asked for subs we gave the members the chance to opt for internet-only access or to carry on receiving a paper newsletter. The current membership list has 55 internet-only members and 83 'full' members. (for some reason we have a batch of members who aren't listed as either so I need to check that to remind myself what their status is).
Actually I do get phone calls and emails from non-internet members, asking where their newsletters are.
GC
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In the words of Dr W. E. Deming - "Where is your data?"
We are holding a conversation here - as has been said - between a self selecting subset of the whole. We have a number of things in common that may well differentiate us from other members of TC. We come on line and take an active part in discussions. Making choices here may well exclude a whole subset of the data - and with it people.
We could ask the question in the news letter - but will that draw out answers, or will there be a happy membership who will just go "Huh!" and let it slip. Are they less valuable?
If I stick my Organisational Development hat on (ping!) There is not a clear shared picture of we are going and why, thus we are unsure of the journey there. This conversation is identifying some of what 'perfect' for TC looks like, whilst this is good, if we wish to include those who are proud TC members but not vocal on here, we should look at ways of including them - as has been suggested, but it would be a good idea to have some handle on the whole, so we know we have spoken to it. If you know the parable of the blind men describing the elephant, we potentially do not know roughly how big the beast is, so we will never know if we have described just a leg, trunk and tail, missing out the other legs, body etc.
Much of this will be in the data, as to whether the data is available, or in a state that can speak to us I do not know. I would be willing to interrogate it mind ;D
Have to go - a beautiful woman has agreed to meet me this morning and blather about analytical Vs enumerative statistics. ::)
R
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The current membership list has 55 internet-only members and 83 'full' members. (for some reason we have a batch of members who aren't listed as either so I need to check that to remind myself what their status is).
Actually I do get phone calls and emails from non-internet members, asking where their newsletters are.
GC
There is the last snapshot. 55 out of over 138 (approx. 40%) have made a decision not to have a paper newsletter. We don't really know why. Approximately 60%, when offered the choice chose to pay extra for the paper. This data is flawed in that it is many months old, is incomplete and is based on a choice without any statement of future intent or other options.
I wouldn't assume phone calls about missing paper newsletter suggest support in any particular direction, if people paid they expect delivery. They may choose to avoid the hassle later by switching product, especially if they know the missing mag could well be online by the time they make the call, but at the point of calling that isn't in their mind. Did you suggest to any callers/mailers they could download it? Not very tactful I know, but I've sold new products that way.
IMHO data from current members who are prepared to be active is what we need.
Andy
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From your last reply it seems that what is most important to you from your original post was the issue of a committee structure, is that right?
GC
Matey, most definately NO!
Lets remember where this debate started from. It was born as a split topic over buying some advertising material to use at shows. All I've tried to do all along is hold up a mirror and ask... is this what we want to do?? Is there the support and organisation available to make a success of this sort of venture within the club?? And My gut tells me no with the evidence to support this of the lack of any sort of formal committee.
Like I've tried to say (and I apologise if this has been lost in translation) I like, no love, the casual hap-hazard way we are thankyouverymuch. ;D I like the fact that we come on line and have a blather and I like the informal meet-ups like Llanthoney, the Dragon and Uttoxeter. What I'm trying to get across is why should we bother with show displays and formal, self organised rallies when we can hitch on the back of someone elses PLI, hang out and talk bollocks??? WHY??
Same goes for the paper newsletter. Nobody wants to write for it and we can't seem to organise it to flow dispite the best efforts of all who have tried. I applaud all the work that's gone into the club so far, I just think it might be an idea to let it evolve naturally into an internet club and save all the ball ache.
To recap so we're completely clear. If you want to spend club funds on show material, make sure you've got the people resourses and organisation to utilise it. If you haven't, save the clubs money for other things.
I shall not be volunteering for any committee as I'm far too busy playing in my shed or chillin' out or working or busy with my family. ;D I reckon most everyone else here is the same (and judging by some not too distant posts, this statement might fit yourself) That means no committee/volunteer base = no organisation = no show stands = save our money. Result.
Finally. I LOVE THE CLUB JUST AS IS, ALL CASUAL AND INTERNETTY with the odd meet-up chucked in for good measure ;D
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Finally. I LOVE THE CLUB JUST AS IS, ALL CASUAL AND INTERNETTY with the odd meet-up chucked in for good measure ;D
Aye [X]
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+2
Why am I getting the impression there are almost two TC's and GC is the contact point? Pure guess, but I think I've met maybe 40 TC members in person (and that's a charitable guess seeing as XT/BMW/Norton/Ural/Sidecar/Moto Guzzi guys and so on come along as guests), all of whom have at least had a look at the site even if they don't say much day to day. Where are the other 100 bodies? What do they get out of their membership? GC, are they telling you?
Andy
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IMHO data from current members who are prepared to be active is what we need.
Andy
Can we have soem agreed Operational Definitions please?
Current Members - People who have paid membership in the last round of membership payments? People who post on here? People who turn up at events? Are all in this or some? What defines a member and as importantly what defines a non-member?
Active:- Visit and read here? Post on here? Attend events? Pay membership and read mag? What counts as active?
What about potential members? What are people looking for?
What is the outcome we are seeking in defining our data set?
R
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What about potential members? What are people looking for?
What I was looking for was a forum where I could share experience etc. with other thumper owners - and that's what I found here.
Most of the other "club" type stuff is of minor interest to me.
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I as a potential member who has followed this forum for a few months as a lover of singles(and twins) has passed the odd post, met a couple of members in Uttoxeter even got a t-shirt am confused and at a loss to what this club/forums aim is.
Registering on the club forum is easy enough then you have to guess that there is another level of membership, a paying membership with no mention of how to join, cost, what the funds are used for, guidelines of the club etc.
The threads also seem to be more personal than general aimed at the core/active members on the internet although it has probably evolved this way, I am aware that anyone could leave their comments but it doesn't always seem appropriate.
This is just my view from the outside trying to get in(then possibly wondering if it'll be worth it) :D ???
I have filled in a form at the show so see what happens next.
Mark
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The threads also seem to be more personal than general aimed at the core/active members on the internet although it has probably evolved this way, I am aware that anyone could leave their comments but it doesn't always seem appropriate.
This is just my view from the outside trying to get in(then possibly wondering if it'll be worth it) :D ???
If no one's said it before: welcome to the nut house, and thanks for joining in.
I wouldn't worry about comments being appropriate, there seems to be a general liking for inappropriate ones ;D
You shouldn't have to try and get in, a point we can hopefully take on board (do we need an intro's section on the board?). The club has a recent history of not getting it's collective act together to collect the subs, get the mag out etc. that should now be on it's way to getting sorted, hence the chaos about paying the subs. We'd seem to have a communication issue on that score, we know it's free for now but I guess not everyone does, but this debate is hopefully part of the solution.
As to if it's worth it? I do wonder sometimes ::), then someone makes me laugh ;D.
Rog: To me a member is someone who'd pay their subs given the chance. An active member is someone who'd pay their subs to do more than get the magazine, so come to a meet, get on the message board, write for the mag etc. Perhaps we should also include subscribers (or a better description) who really only want to read the mag. The difference is people on the current list as members may simply have a quick scan of the mag but wouldn't pay for it again when asked, and if we don't have the paper mag we'd loose the subscriber type members who could well grow into more active ones.
This is as always only my take on things.
Andy
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Welcome Mark and thanks for your very interesting comments.
Do I need anymore proof that we need to sort out the little things before we embark on any showground advertisement/recruitment programme?? We can't get the people who come on line to join up (on account there is no joining up stuff ie set fee/list of benefits/MAG pack/who to send money to details/firm calendar of events blah blah blah blah)!!
Not hiding in the shed today... sulking with a bloody silly bolt that won't come out >:(
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Welcome Mark and thanks for your very interesting comments.
Do I need anymore proof that we need to sort out the little things before we embark on any showground advertisement/recruitment programme?....../firm calendar of events blah blah blah blah)!!
Hummm chicken and egg ?
Not sure on the head thing - I have two seized in jobbies on an alternator I want to move, all wiring etc so no heat for that one. Maybe would should have a support group - I know some nice meeting rooms. The Swan, The Tun ...
R
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Rog wrote
I have two seized in jobbies
Rog,
try some Fairy liquid on your little finger ;D ;D :D
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Do I need anymore proof that we need to sort out the little things before we embark on any showground advertisement/recruitment programme?? We can't get the people who come on line to join up (on account there is no joining up stuff ie set fee/list of benefits/MAG pack/who to send money to details/firm calendar of events blah blah blah blah)!!
Not hiding in the shed today... sulking with a bloody silly bolt that won't come out >:(
Greetings Mark and Aye Pat,
These things have a loooooooonnnnnnng gestation!
It's the comfort factor, either you do or you don't feel it, find it or acquire it. You can also loose it. It is similar to walking into a bar in an unfamiliar, neigh foriegn land and by the end of the evening you are still there and enjoying it. Or you walked out after downing the drink in a hurry, if you even got that far!
As a forum of banter (careful), erudite blethering, mutual social support and mechanical mayhem, it takes some beating. The only people I've met face to face on this forum were at Stafford, when 3 sheds took the top prize. Also Smudge, who lives a wee way away and 'cause we liaised over an ill fated canter in these parts. :-X
It's that regimentation of 'Club' activities that really, gets up my nose ( & why I put a line through the final item in Pat's list). If you commit, say so and don't welch on the commitment. If you have doubts about being able to deliver, due to other commitments, maybe you shouldn't! That is not a criticism, just an opinion and you can get shot for having those in some countries. At least this forum is BIG enough not to go there.
If you prefer to put this into 'Rants', please do. I have no quarrel with the Moderation.
Yours aye, Bill.
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I as a potential member who has followed this forum for a few months as a lover of singles(and twins) has passed the odd post, met a couple of members in Uttoxeter even got a t-shirt am confused and at a loss to what this club/forums aim is.
Registering on the club forum is easy enough then you have to guess that there is another level of membership, a paying membership with no mention of how to join, cost, what the funds are used for, guidelines of the club etc.
The threads also seem to be more personal than general aimed at the core/active members on the internet although it has probably evolved this way, I am aware that anyone could leave their comments but it doesn't always seem appropriate.
This is just my view from the outside trying to get in(then possibly wondering if it'll be worth it) :D ???
I have filled in a form at the show so see what happens next.
Mark
These comments from a recent addition to our ranks should sum things up quite nicely . They should serve as a wake up call . Are we alienating prospective members due to the farting about ?
If we are , leave things as they are . Previous debates show that nothing changes ,people remain quietly disatisfied with things and make the best of it ,which is what will happen now ,ultimately. Mark , thank you for speaking up . Any contribution that you wish to make , appropriate or otherwise is welcome.I have been told that some exchanges are viewed as being ' too cluby ', questions having being raised by other members . There are people on this forum who have known each other for over twenty years and predate the forum . Yes we are going to be familiar . Don't let this put you off . Simply by taking the trouble to post on this subject speaks volumes for you Mark .Thumper club is what you make of it .Some make of it more than others.
You're right . The membership thing is laughable . We have been unable to resolve this for what seems years { it probably is !} . The inability to resolve membership / rallies/ newsletters is legendary and sadly ongoing with no sign of resolution.
My understanding was that the thumper club is a riders club devoted to the use, ownership and a liking of the single cylinder four stroke motorcycle , regardless of their country of origin . It is a site for enthusiasts to debate , seek advice and generally discuss all things thumper in whatever manner they see fit .
This is not a perfect club , it never will be . There are elements that really annoy me , however let's get on with it.I simply cannot be bothered raising any more issues .I have made some fine friends through this club , people I meet up with once a year as if we've seen each other last week .If all that remains of this club is this forum , then so be it . Let's keep it that way .
Right 'nuff said , where's my port ?
Rob .
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Like I've tried to say (and I apologise if this has been lost in translation) I like, no love, the casual hap-hazard way we are thankyouverymuch. ;D I like the fact that we come on line and have a blather and I like the informal meet-ups like Llanthoney, the Dragon and Uttoxeter. What I'm trying to get across is why should we bother with show displays and formal, self organised rallies when we can hitch on the back of someone elses PLI, hang out and talk bollocks??? WHY??
Same goes for the paper newsletter. Nobody wants to write for it and we can't seem to organise it to flow dispite the best efforts of all who have tried. I applaud all the work that's gone into the club so far, I just think it might be an idea to let it evolve naturally into an internet club and save all the ball ache.
To recap so we're completely clear. If you want to spend club funds on show material, make sure you've got the people resourses and organisation to utilise it. If you haven't, save the clubs money for other things.
I shall not be volunteering for any committee as I'm far too busy playing in my shed or chillin' out or working or busy with my family. ;D I reckon most everyone else here is the same (and judging by some not too distant posts, this statement might fit yourself) That means no committee/volunteer base = no organisation = no show stands = save our money. Result.
Finally. I LOVE THE CLUB JUST AS IS, ALL CASUAL AND INTERNETTY with the odd meet-up chucked in for good measure ;D
This is "for what it's worth", as I don't feel I've contributed much to the club in its "traditional" sense. However ... I agree wholeheartedly with Pat. I don't think a club loses anything by way of identity, activity, friendship or membership by becoming an informal entity piggy-backed on a web forum. By way of a parallel, both NiBlue and I "belong" to an old-established mailing list (Graham will know which one I mean!), which has no formal membership, no subs, no committee. Its core "members", who probably number over a hundred, have developed loyalty to one another without any of the formal club stuff, and are always meeting up in groups, big and small, up and down the country - for the hell of it, at other people's events, and at our own. OK, we tend to prefer hotels to camping, but we always had a September event in the Dales at a pub that has both - an event in the sense that we all book in to the same place at once, and more or less take it over. No PLI involved. Occasionally the currently-responsible person orders some merchandise, for which people who want it pay.
The TC ran in a "traditional" format and eventually ran into difficulty. Time to try something else? If it has trouble attracting or keeping members, maybe it's because people either don't know what to expect, or expect something and don't get it. If, on the other hand, it were clearly a community (as someone said) with a forum to communicate on, and people knew they could be members of it simply by participating, no red tape, no pack drill, then I bet you'd have TC members meeting up and down the country, as TC members, without anyone considering whether it was a "proper" TC event that should be billed as such.
I bet this approach would be successful.
Cheers
Richard
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Having been involved in the club in one for or another over the years this thread has been interesting to follow. Over the years I've annoyed more than a few people, so these days I'm inclined to keep my head down and see where things go rather than get actively involved.
Most of the input to this has been pretty constructive, it could easily have dissolved into something more appropriate to the rants section so that speaks volumes for the type of people here.
I'm inclined to agree with the relaxed approach to everything, it seems to work and everyone is comfortable with it. The only issue that hasnt really been resolved is the need for Public Liability insurance, how do the other internet/non paid membership based clubs cope with this ?.
I'm no expert here, but PLI is supposed to protect the membership against claims, so if for example lets take the Annual Rally this year, lets assume a bike on the stand falls over and breaks someones leg, chances are the injured person will claim against the club for damages. Who is going to pay ?, chances are they will go after the organiser which is Graham. No PLI insurance and chances are just defending the action would mean the loss of his house !. This is just one example and anything that is organised through the club site is subject to the same issues.
My feeling is that simply making things 'informal' fools no-one, especially insurance companies, so if a claim is made against the club for whatever reason, someone will have to pay.
I'm no expert in this area, so if anyone knows better than please correct me, but its an area where mistakes could be very expensive.
Assumming we need PLI we need to find a way of paying for it, subscriptions are the only way I can see of doing this. This then brings in a load more questions about what constitutes a member and what do they get for their subscription
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The GS club I believe are the prime example. Web only and no "fee" followed by an incident and they were in house-at-risk territory. They now have a message board/info area that is unlocked when you pay up. No idea about been able to read-only if you are not a member.
Horizons Unlimited and ADVrider are just message boards, they make their money to cover the net stuff by adverts and voluntary contributions. The members meet ad Hoc with the exception of some organised events, the fee's for which must cover the PLI.
Isn't PLI a flat rate per member to MAG? Does it matter if we are an internet club of 50 or a sub-sectioned, commiteed, weekly meetings in the local leisure centre club of 10,000?
Andy
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Isn't PLI a flat rate per member to MAG? Does it matter if we are an internet club of 50 or a sub-sectioned, commiteed, weekly meetings in the local leisure centre club of 10,000?
Correct its a flat(ish) rate based upon number of members, but what defines a member ? if its someone who pays, and the web-site is completely open what do thay get for their money ?.
The option of making it read-only to non-members is an option, but this may prevent people on the edge contributing at all (Marks comments being a good example). Maybe we have some boards open to members and others open. Any thoughts ?
Steve
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lets assume a bike on the stand falls over and breaks someones leg, chances are the injured person will claim against the club for damages. Who is going to pay ?,
The point is SteveH, If we don't 'do' shows and just turn up, camp and enjoy someone elses, This won't be an issue will it. I'm going to go to Aberdare races on Saturday, might meet some of you lot there, I don't need PLI to go and I'm not banned from talking to anyone from here I meet either. Loads of us meet up at the Dragon most winters (your welcome to join us matey ;D), we don't need PLI to do that. Infact, if we were so inclined, we would claim against the organisers PLI should anything go wrong.
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The point is SteveH, If we don't 'do' shows and just turn up, camp and enjoy someone elses, This won't be an issue will it. I'm going to go to Aberdare races on Saturday, might meet some of you lot there, I don't need PLI to go and I'm not banned from talking to anyone from here I meet either. Loads of us meet up at the Dragon most winters (your welcome to join us matey ;D), we don't need PLI to do that. Infact, if we were so inclined, we would claim against the organisers PLI should anything go wrong.
I'm sure your right Pat, but when it comes down to it would I bet my family home on your legal opinion ? I doubt it.
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The point is SteveH, If we don't 'do' shows and just turn up, camp and enjoy someone elses, This won't be an issue will it. I'm going to go to Aberdare races on Saturday, might meet some of you lot there, I don't need PLI to go and I'm not banned from talking to anyone from here I meet either. Loads of us meet up at the Dragon most winters (your welcome to join us matey ;D), we don't need PLI to do that. Infact, if we were so inclined, we would claim against the organisers PLI should anything go wrong.
I'm sure your right Pat, but when it comes down to it would I bet my family home on your legal opinion ? I doubt it.
If we book spaces on someone's camp site, or rooms in his pub, then we're the owner's guests the same as anyone else who turns up. The proprietor is the one with PLI. It's not at all the same as organising an event and inviting people to turn up under our aegis, so to speak.
Cheers
Richard
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The small local club I belong to used to arrange a Christmas do every year.One year someone managed to leave their finger in a rapidly closing door,result,chopped off finger.Although the event was organised by our bike club they claimed off the PLI of the venue.
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PLI - You are probably all right. If we all turn up to campsite X for the weekend then their PLI would probably cover us, if my bike fell on someone (jeez there is a thought Rog with a working bike) then my 3rd party or domestic insurance would probably cover it. If we were to book as the TC and invite people along then possibly we would need PLI.
In there are too many possibilities, probably's etc for my liking. Some aspects of me are risk adverse and others are not. How do we indemnify any member of the TC from the fall out of a legal action. How do we know one of those "No-win-no-fee" pimps will not take on a case against us with the punter paying an insurance on losing. Would GC have to find the ante even if it came back in expenses from the court, what if it was found in our favour but no expenses awarded, who will stump up the house? Pat?
The RD500 forum is just that - some of the Yanks meet up for Laguna but here it is web forum only, no need for membership although you can contribute similar to what TC charges for full membership to support the site. We do - from time to time - meet up.
The pennies it costs for PLI seems a small amount to pay to get rid of all those ifs and buts
R
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The pennies it costs for PLI seems a small amount to pay to get rid of all those ifs and buts
R
How much is the PLI ?
Exactly how much money are we quibbling about here ? Has anyone checked ?
It seems we are debating this particular point , without any basis in fact .
If it is a small amount , why hasn't it been paid ?
Whose responsibility is it to pay it ?
How much money is currently in the TC kitty ? Are we too strapped to pay it ?
Just a thought .
Rob .
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On the basis of 100-150 members then MAG affiliation was around £1 a member and the insurance another £2 to £3 per person. If you include others costs such as the hosting etc then £5/year covers it. Which is what was being charged for the internet only membership.
Which takes me back to my earlier question, if we charge this, what incentive is there for people to pay, what do they get for their £5 ?
If people choose not to pay then thats fair enough they wont be covered and thats their problem, but we would need a core of around 100 to pay.
Steve
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I'd be more than happy to pay a membership fee for the club, however my main memories of MAG were back when I was a teenager when they were prominently against compulsory helmet laws (which wasn't a stance I agreed with) and I've never really paid much attention to them since.
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Correct its a flat(ish) rate based upon number of members, but what defines a member ? if its someone who pays, and the web-site is completely open what do thay get for their money ?.
The option of making it read-only to non-members is an option, but this may prevent people on the edge contributing at all (Marks comments being a good example). Maybe we have some boards open to members and others open. Any thoughts ?
Steve
A member ,(IMHO), in this case (assuming no subs) is a person who's details we hold. To become a member on a free board you are usually required to give details. This differentiates you from the bloke in the street who offered no acceptance of what you are offering.
In the case of an event, there is usually a fee and hence you've got another of the legs of a legal contract. The other legs (offer, acceptance, legality etc.) will have a "paper" trail on the board even if there is no physical contract. If the message board offers to deliver your message and it does, that's contract complete, you can't sue them when your bike falls off it's stand.
In the case of us deciding to go to Dent, the payment IMHO (and limited legal knowledge) decides who we have the contract with and hence who's PLI we use. If we all go the farm house and pay we've each contracted the farmer. If GC or Steve organises the BBQ and collects the funds and sub-contracts to the farm, their house is on the line if there is no PLI. If another camper comes to join us, then has a bike fall on them, they are the claimant against the farm and the person who's bike it was so long as we didn't sell them a ticket. The clubs PLI would oppose any payment, but the campsites may initially support it to get the club to pay. As an individual, if you had legal cover on your bike insurance they'd help but might be a PITA if they could squirm out by saying it was a club event. In-sewer-ants always beat the individual then try and bully each other, so IMHO it's best to have one on our side that can't squirm too much.
For a free board with no PLI there needs IMHO to be a very serious disclaimer (that all new members need to acknowledge) setting out that what members do based on information exchanged is their own *****y business. This should be a big help regarding GC's house but won't help me if I posted the "let's all go to Llanthony" and bought the first round of pickled eggs. For a board with locked areas and some sort of sub I believe it makes sense to keep the PLI as part of the fee.
Controls on a locked board is a big discussion. Personally I'd suggest read only until we get your details, then maybe a 1 or 3 month free trial, but that's a lot of work to turn off the guys who don't pay (or can it be automated?). It combines the jobs of membership secretary and webmaster unless we can organise a split in work load.
Please note that while I write contracts every day, when they go wrong we get a proper lawyer. We always win and the lawyers usually like what i've written, but I'm not setting myself up as club legal officer. I'm told the wig doesn't suit me ;D
Andy
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Andy that was useful, thank you.
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I'd be more than happy to pay a membership fee for the club, however my main memories of MAG were back when I was a teenager when they were prominently against compulsory helmet laws (which wasn't a stance I agreed with) and I've never really paid much attention to them since.
Must admit until we joined I was of a similar vein, however in my opinion MAG has moved on a lot. They manage to strike a good balance between professionalism and irreverent(?) opinions.
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As Steve said, an internet-only membership fee of £5 covers all costs and MAg affiliation benefits could offset this if you take advantage of them.
As for MAG, we belong to it for the simplie reason that our BMF membership (and associated PLI) turned sour when two members' bikes were stolen at a BMF show and they showed very little concern.
My thoughts on the site structure to support a fee are to keep the forums free to all, but to lock other areas.
Brochures - thumbnails open, details locked
Articles - hmmm... perhaps older ones open and newer ones locked? (sounds like an admin pain so perhaps best if all are open)
Photos - all thumbnail pages open. Photos on current page open but all others locked
Newsletters - menu list open, actual newsletters locked
Links - open
POTD - open
H&S - open
Team Thumper - open
This brings me on to another point. If we want the website side to improve we have to use the resources that the members give us. At the moment stories and short articles are being produced every day on the site. Stories that used to be saved up and sent to the newsletter editor are being sent, instead, via a new thread that may generate 100 views and 10 replies, but then gets kicked back into the archives as new threads supersede it.
I think the moderators should start culling interesting stories for inclusion in the 'Articles' section of the site. It may mean that the moderator has to contact the member who posted the item to get it fleshed out, but this should work. A good example would be to collate some of the fantastic project threads we've had over the last few years.
This is also true for some of the photos that crop up in the forums, we should be copying them over to the photo section.
This approach adds content to the site (which encourages repeat visits from lurkers) and saves some interesting stuff.
And, in case anyone forgets, the main thing is to ride our bikes, have laugh and chat about it afterwards.
GC
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Re: PLI and membership.
Is a member the person who uses the forum or is it the person who pays subs.
Again this is 'confused old me' but if subs are paid, you sign up and give your details then you are a member(with a membership number) and you therefore have a hard and fast number of members to cover with PLI.
As for just the users(forum) that do not wish to become paying members and give their details are classified as 'other than member' then no PLI should be necessary.
Then if at a show/rally a members bike falls on someone you're covered, if a none members bike falls on someone then it's someone elses problem. ???
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Re: PLI and membership.
Is a member the person who uses the forum or is it the person who pays subs.
Again this is 'confused old me' but if subs are paid, you sign up and give your details then you are a member(with a membership number) and you therefore have a hard and fast number of members to cover with PLI.
As for just the users(forum) that do not wish to become paying members and give their details are classified as 'other than member' then no PLI should be necessary.
Then if at a show/rally a members bike falls on someone you're covered, if a none members bike falls on someone then it's someone elses problem. ???
And if you have no paid memberships at all, just forum users, then everyone falls into the latter category. If you have an open forum and website, with no hoops to jump through to see the juicy bits, or fees to pay for dubious or uncertain privileges, you'll get a lot more interest and a lot more particpants, who will make contact with each other and meet up. To paraphrase the Bible - "where one or two are gathered in its name, there is the Thumper Club" ;-)
The PLI thing seems irrelevant to what TC people do for most of the year - it's just sounding to me like a bit of a red herring, and an obstacle to progress.
To get more participants, you need to make it freer and easier, not complicated and restrictive.
Just my 2 euro worth.
Cheers
Richard
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Re: PLI and membership.
Is a member the person who uses the forum or is it the person who pays subs.
Ideally yes. You pay your subs (or even buy a rally ticket) and the club extends it's duty of care to protect you in case a passer by does something silly and wants to sue.
If I go on Yahoo and tell someone to jump off a bridge and they do, Yahoo is safe, I am not. I ticked a box when I signed up and they sent me an email confirming they'd only let me pass on my info, they assume little duty of care beyond banning me if I break copywrite or anti-discrimination or other laws. The person who jumped could come looking for me with his lawyers though and my personal (household or bike) insurance would run a mile.
I don't think it is a red herring. If we act as a club we need the PLI. If we act as a discussion group we need the disclaimers. If we do something between the two without PLI people's houses can be at risk.
I don't know details of the GS Club case, but basically a website was set up to talk BMW's. Someone associated to the site suggested a ride out. On the ride out one bike hit another. One rider involved in the crash pursued not only the other rider, but also the club with a claim that the ride organisation was somehow flawed (I'd bet the bike insurer encouraged this). As there was no PLI, the ride organiser/suggester and the website people were all personally in the frame, I would guess because registered users on there (I left before the incident) were given a number. This site now charges.
We can pick a route in either direction, but everyone should understand the middle one is most dangerous.
For part of the fiver a year I'll take my MAG PLI cover as good value thank you very much.
Andy
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For a free board with no PLI there needs IMHO to be a very serious disclaimer (that all new members need to acknowledge) setting out that what members do based on information exchanged is their own *****y business.
Andy
I have a mate in the local IAM group.On one run out someone new turned up for the ride and promptly threw his bike in a field on a slow bend.This went to claiming against the group,even though my mate saw what happened and it was the riders fault,no one elses.I do not know what happened regarding the claim,but now they have a disclaimer that runs to a couple of pages that must be signed by every rider before a run out.No signiture,no ride.
The local club I belong to doesn't have any PLI,but then we don't arrange any events any more.We have had it in the past,the last entry in the cash book says it cost £60 for a years cover.
I would be happy to pay a small fee towards the upkeep of the T.C. and to cover PLI cost etc even though the only time I am likely to meet anyone is at the Dragon.
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Fiver a year sounds cheap enough not to put anyone sensible off, I'd certainly pay that. Is it worth a club poll / vote? (or a dictators decision! ;))
Certainly I think not having PLI would be a. foolish and b. unfair to GC and indeed anyone else trying to organise anything on here.
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Fiver a year sounds cheap enough not to put anyone sensible off, I'd certainly pay that. Is it worth a club poll / vote? (or a dictators decision! ;))
Certainly I think not having PLI would be a. foolish and b. unfair to GC and indeed anyone else trying to organise anything on here.
Aye [X]
Equals 2 pints or less if the goes int' posh side!
Having read of the quaffing capacity potential on the site, it won't really dent the merriment!
Toodle pip, Bill.
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And if you have no paid memberships at all, just forum users, then everyone falls into the latter category. If you have an open forum and website, with no hoops to jump through to see the juicy bits, or fees to pay for dubious or uncertain privileges, you'll get a lot more interest and a lot more particpants, who will make contact with each other and meet up. To paraphrase the Bible - "where one or two are gathered in its name, there is the Thumper Club" ;-)
The PLI thing seems irrelevant to what TC people do for most of the year - it's just sounding to me like a bit of a red herring, and an obstacle to progress.
To get more participants, you need to make it freer and easier, not complicated and restrictive.
Just my 2 euro worth.
Cheers
Richard
Being as there have been no membs collected for some time, that is essentially what we have, and I am not sure I have detected a large jump in people cont to here. I would like to see the data.
However, taking all the points into account and the clarity from Andy that we either need to be one thing or the other, the danger is in the hole in the middle, and that people will use this site to organise a get together, and that insurance companies are out to maximise return on investment (as all businesses are) etc etc, the small amount per annum to cover web costs, PLI etc seems to be the minimum state we should be willing to accept, even if it is only to make those of us with a more risk averse attitude feel happy about the bank accounts of people who do stuff to make TC happen.
R
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On the basis of 100-150 members then MAG affiliation was around £1 a member and the insurance another £2 to £3 per person. If you include others costs such as the hosting etc then £5/year covers it. Which is what was being charged for the internet only membership.
Which takes me back to my earlier question, if we charge this, what incentive is there for people to pay, what do they get for their £5 ?
If people choose not to pay then that's fair enough they wont be covered and that's their problem, but we would need a core of around 100 to pay.
A quick bit of "Googling" brought up this link:
http://www.bikesure.co.uk/news.php?newsid=190 (http://www.bikesure.co.uk/news.php?newsid=190)
An "off the shelf" PLI policy specifically for bike clubs from "£110 per year". Twelve events per year should cover things I'd have thought, but it can be tailored specifically for the club.
How about a system where an individual who turns up to an "official" TC club (need to define this, a gathering of more than 6 TC members, maybe?) pays £5 to cover club expenses and to ensure they're covered? An individual need only pay this fee once a year, subsequent "events" are "free", but you'll still need to sign an attendance register.
If you don't attend events, you only participate in the forums, for example, then you don't need any cover.
Clearly, someone in an "official" capacity will need to keep a register of the attendees and collect any fivers on behalf of the club, but this would be all the administration work required.
No doubt there is a more specific definition of "club event" in the insurance policy, but as this policy is tailored for smaller clubs, I'm assuming there wouldn't be too much paperwork required to cover our larger get togethers.
Thoughts?
BTW, interesting to see in the Bikesure blurb that not many organisers of large events have PLI to cover club stands, etc. Were we covered at the Uttoxeter show or was it just assumed we were?
Simon
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Spot on Simon , seems to tally nicely with Steve H's estimate .If the £110:00 per year covers twelve club organised events , then I think this is enough. If we charge £5:00 for full membership then £2:00 goes towards the PLI and the rest for club funds .
The issue over collecting money and keeping track of whose paid etc would appear to be a nightmare , given our collective ability to organise.Better to have a one off membership payment from everyone , part of which pays for the PLI , be it £5 per annum or what ever .
Would this cover it?It does seem very cheap.
Come on ,set a date when membership is due , method of payment , how much , and get this sorted and move on .
Rob .
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Come on ,set a date when membership is due , method of payment , how much , and get this sorted and move on .
Rob .
Aye [X]
Thank you Simon, Steve H and Rob.
Regards to All, Bill.
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I think that is a good idea- I haven't been to any meets yet but still feel like I'm part of the club- I would gladly pay so that we're covered at events- it's not necisarily us but the other berks out there that would ruin things, so for the sake of a fiver a year lets just get it sorted- I don't think anyone can grumble at that considering how much work GC et al do behind the scenes anyway...
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Come on ,set a date when membership is due , method of payment , how much , and get this sorted and move on .
Rob .
Aye [X]
Thank you Simon, Steve H and Rob.
Regards to All, Bill.
Agree with you all on this one. I'm getting VERY bored with this issue (again) and I consider myself vaguely interested and/or active within the club!!!!!!?????? God only knows what potential 'members' must think.
Boyd
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I'm working on making some minor changes to record membership, and place restrictions on some areas of the site based upon membership.
Once this is done, and Graham is ready to deal with memberships I will put the PayPal/membership page up again
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I'm working on making some minor changes to record membership, and place restrictions on some areas of the site based upon membership.
Once this is done, and Graham is ready to deal with memberships I will put the PayPal/membership page up again
HOORAH! Does that mean I can be a proper member soon.....hopefully in time for the Dragon Rally.
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God only knows what potential 'members' must think.
Boyd
I can only imagine , people must have been put off by it all.
Rob.
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I'm working on making some minor changes to record membership, and place restrictions on some areas of the site based upon membership.
Once this is done, and Graham is ready to deal with memberships I will put the PayPal/membership page up again
Thank you SteveH, for your patience and diligence with this bit of electrickery, sorted! :)
Oi!!!! PayPal!!! You got any dosh? :D
My regards, Bill.
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Come on ,set a date when membership is due , method of payment , how much , and get this sorted and move on .
Rob .
Aye [X]
Thank you Simon, Steve H and Rob.
Regards to All, Bill.
Agree with you all on this one. I'm getting VERY bored with this issue (again) and I consider myself vaguely interested and/or active within the club!!!!!!?????? God only knows what potential 'members' must think.
Boyd
Yes I Totally Agree !
Jethro
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Come on ,set a date when membership is due , method of payment , how much , and get this sorted and move on
Well I must agree with that as I now seem to have become a potential "member" again (Careful here Rob and 002).
Furry John
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Too easy , family site and all that ;)
Rob .
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Come on ,set a date when membership is due , method of payment , how much , and get this sorted and move on
Well I must agree with that as I now seem to have become a potential "member" again (Careful here Rob and 002).
Furry John
What...a Furry Member.....at YOUR AGE !
Bet its Grey ;D ;D ;D
Jethro
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See , too easy ;D
Rob
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Can we get back on track here {and I'm as guilty as the next !}
GC , Can we confirm date subs required and method of payment . We do not want this to drift /flounder as per previous attempts to resolve .
I suspect that if a positive outcome to this debate is not forthcoming then this will have detrimental effect on a number of issues .
Rob .
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I suspect that if a positive outcome to this debate is not forthcoming then this will have detrimental effect on a number of issues .
Rob .
One of them being that I will start a new club for CB250RS Enthusiasts* (if there isn't one already)!
Boyd
*Anyone who owns, might have owned, thinks about owning, knows someone who has or has not owned a CB250RS but is thinking about it, drinks beer and/or rides any motorbike, sidecar or trike is most welcome!!! No membership fee, no web presense, no newsletter only the occasional get together.
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I suspect that if a positive outcome to this debate is not forthcoming then this will have detrimental effect on a number of issues .
Rob .
One of them being that I will start a new club for CB250RS Enthusiasts* (if there isn't one already)!
Boyd
*Anyone who owns, might have owned, thinks about owning, knows someone who has or has not owned a CB250RS but is thinking about it, drinks beer and/or rides any motorbike, sidecar or trike is most welcome!!! No membership fee, no web presense, no newsletter only the occasional get together.
Consider it done . Thumper club tiddler section . Motto ;
' Size does not matter '
Boyd 001 , Rob 002 . Where's Foxy
Rob
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RS250 - tiddler, I thought GC's and my nacent CG125 cafe racers were the tidlers
R
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May I be accepted as a member, please, of the 'Thumpette' tiddler section? 8)
Morini 125 and also a Honda P50 on loan to my neighbour as a tractor rally 'pit bike'! ;D
Postie's are COOOOOOOOOL 8)
My regards, Bill.
P.S. I've lost the plot more than usual tonight after reading KirriePete's post in the 'Humour' section from end to end. Oh! Deep joy! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Have we now reached a firm conclusion then?? If so, what is it?? :-\
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Have we now reached a firm conclusion then?? If so, what is it?? :-\
Tut,tut,tut werent you paying attention !, go to the back of the class.
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May I be accepted as a member, please, of the 'Thumpette' tiddler section? 8)
Morini 125 and also a Honda P50 on loan to my neighbour as a tractor rally 'pit bike'! ;D
Postie's are COOOOOOOOOL 8)
My regards, Bill.
P.S. I've lost the plot more than usual tonight after reading KirriePete's post in the 'Humour' section from end to end. Oh! Deep joy! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I've got a couple of inoperative Thumpette's! Can I join too? ;D
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May I be accepted as a member, please, of the 'Thumpette' tiddler section? 8)
Morini 125 and also a Honda P50 on loan to my neighbour as a tractor rally 'pit bike'! ;D
Postie's are COOOOOOOOOL 8)
My regards, Bill.
P.S. I've lost the plot more than usual tonight after reading KirriePete's post in the 'Humour' section from end to end. Oh! Deep joy! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Is a requirement that they are inoperative.. lol
R
I've got a couple of inoperative Thumpette's! Can I join too? ;D
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I propose that this new club be called the:
ITNOOTAR Club
Interested in Thumpers but might Not Actually Own One That Runs Club
Boyd
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I propose that this new club be called the:
ITNOOTAR Club
A bit like ITMAR! ;D
Interested in Thumpers but might Not Actually Own One That Runs Club
Boyd
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GC , Can we confirm date subs required and method of payment . We do not want this to drift /flounder as per previous attempts to resolve .
I suspect that if a positive outcome to this debate is not forthcoming then this will have detrimental effect on a number of issues .
We still await details , getting bored now . This is in danger of wandering off , as per previous attempts to resolve this subject .
Rob .
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I know lets carry on as usual and it will all go away !
Till next time !
Jethro
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It's not all bad lads. I'm pretty sure we could organise a p1ss up in a brewery ;D
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It's not all bad lads. I'm pretty sure we could organise a p1ss up in a brewery ;D
Can us non members come. :D
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It's not all bad lads. I'm pretty sure we could organise a p1ss up in a brewery ;D
Not without PLI ,we couldn't !
Rob .
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It's not all bad lads. I'm pretty sure we could organise a p1ss up in a brewery ;D
Not without PLI ,we couldn't !
Rob .
Argh ;-)
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And to think, we were going to spend a couple of hundred quid on advertising display equipment to recruit new members! ::)
Heyho, good ol' thumperclub ;D
Happy days.
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And to think, we were going to spend a couple of hundred quid on advertising display equipment to recruit new members! ::)
Heyho, good ol' thumperclub ;D
Happy days.
So say you Pat , but the issue of membership is still trundling around at the moment .We can't have anymore 'til we know what to do with the existing ones. ;)
Rob.
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Please forgive me as a newbie to add my thoughts but here is a simple idea, 'voluntary donations via paypal' its used on another forum i use through my work & it seems to attract quite a lot of donations, some one offs & some donate regularly, there are no fees or subscriptions & i have no idea what the money goes towards but i have given several times when i have a bit of loose change in the paypal account to support a growing forum, perhaps selling advertising could be a goer if the forum grows to its potential too, just an idea, i know it may not suit everyone.
heres a link to the site so you can see how it works.
http://www.vwgolfmk2.co.uk/modules.php?name=Forums
cheers, Paul.
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Stuff is going on chaps, and whilst you may be impatient to know all the details I would remind you that decisions made here are not even close to being a final decision for the club. A consensus amongst 'net members is useful, but doesn't represent the wishes and thoughts of the club as a whole.
I'm busy with the newsletter at the moment, one pair of hands and all that...
GC
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Don't worry GC, I'm sure everyone appreciates what you're trying to do- an answer will be made available soon enough.
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one pair of hands and all that...
Bringing us neatly back to where we started...............
Boyd
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one pair of hands and all that...
Bringing us neatly back to where we started...............
Boyd
LOL! LOL! LOL! ;D ;D ;D
Should we all admit defeat at the hands of apathy and just carry on blathering?? Hands up all those who say aye! (always assuming you can be bothered ;))
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one pair of hands and all that...
Bringing us neatly back to where we started...............
Boyd
LOL! LOL! LOL! ;D ;D ;D
Should we all admit defeat at the hands of apathy and just carry on blathering?? Hands up all those who say aye! (always assuming you can be bothered ;))
OK, OK ........ nah can't be bothered ;)