Thumper Club Forum

Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: Steffan on May 07, 2009, 04:13:57 PM

Title: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Steffan on May 07, 2009, 04:13:57 PM: Broke out the old Briggs and Stratton this afternoon for bit of the old greenery mutilation and it occured to me that this old thing (7-9 yrs) gets taken out without any prep fueled up started up and run flat out for a couple of hours every week for four month. It then gets stuck back in the shed for the rest of year and the cycle continues. In all that time it needed a new sparkplug, diaphram for the carb and an oil change. Now in my experience bikes seem to need a great deal more attention than that and my question is why. Why can't someone build a bike that needs an annual oil change and petrol and just gets on with it? Flat out of course!

Steffan
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Richard on May 07, 2009, 05:13:19 PM: Surely Royal Enfields are like that. Reliable, simple, sturdy machinery that run untroubled for years. If they do break something so simple would be easy to fix as well.

Sorry, now where did I put that coat ?

Richard
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Bruce on May 07, 2009, 06:14:49 PM: Your right my Big4 is not quick but very reliable and easy to repair in fact spares are easier for me to get hold of now than when I first bought in 1972.
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest27 on May 07, 2009, 06:28:52 PM: Mowers dont exactly run flat out though do they - steady rpm and if you fiddle with the regulator springs you can make them run much faster, dont really have that much of a load on them either - spinning a cutter round. Not sure what HP a typical garden mower makes, but it is next to bugger all, not a lot of torque, not sure I would want to ride a bike with a mower motor in it.

R
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: bullet350 on May 07, 2009, 06:33:09 PM: i was thinking quite a similar thought this morning. i was using a wacker plate thats never seen any maintenance ever, yet always starts first time.

its got a 98cc honda engine, a side-valve single! thats a full 13cc bigger than the c90 i rode to work on!

is the wacker plate eligable for thumper club membership?

bulllet350
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest27 on May 07, 2009, 06:34:54 PM: If you ride it!

R
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: mini-thumper on May 07, 2009, 07:16:01 PM: Dear Mr Honda
Why not build a ride-on whacker plate? It would certainly make my current six miles to work very entertaining, and my dentist wealthier due to all my teeth being shaken out. If you should go ahead with this project, and I see from the attached you are already thinking along these lines, don't forget to send me a cut of the profits.

(http://www.icmsa.co.za/images/bell%20Rammer%201.jpg)

Yours in anticipation

Boyd 'I likes a good bounce me, and a sausage' Brooks
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Mark on May 07, 2009, 08:03:00 PM: Quote from: mini-thumper on May 07, 2009, 07:16:01 PM
Dear Mr Honda
Why not build a ride-on whacker plate? It would certainly make my current six miles to work very entertaining, and my dentist wealthier due to all my teeth being shaken out. If you should go ahead with this project, and I see from the attached you are already thinking along these lines, don't forget to send me a cut of the profits.

(http://www.icmsa.co.za/images/bell%20Rammer%201.jpg)

Yours in anticipation

Boyd 'I likes a good bounce me, and a sausage' Brooks

You wouldn't get your wife off it.
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Steffan on May 07, 2009, 10:46:40 PM: Quote from: Rog on May 07, 2009, 06:28:52 PM
Mowers dont exactly run flat out though do they - steady rpm and if you fiddle with the regulator springs you can make them run much faster, dont really have that much of a load on them either - spinning a cutter round. Not sure what HP a typical garden mower makes, but it is next to bugger all, not a lot of torque, not sure I would want to ride a bike with a mower motor in it.

R

Mine does. ;D
You ain't seen my lawn. ::)
Couldn't say - though I think you've missed the point. My point was why can't we have bikes that can be similarly abused and yet start reliably and run and run

Steffan
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest40 on May 08, 2009, 01:22:18 AM: Yeah Steff, they called them Urals!
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: squirrelciv on May 08, 2009, 06:01:48 AM: Sorry Steffan, it's called 'improvement'.
You see, you start off with a simple single cylinder motor, side valve, low compression and normally aspirated that produces low HP but high(ish) torque whilst sipping fuel. Then you 'improve' it by adding more cylinders, twin OH cams, high compression and fuel injection and everything managed by a computer. Now you have a much noisier machine capable of silly speeds that sadly guzzles fuel and is a bitch to start/run/maintain.

See, it's 'improvement'. ;D
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: xbruby on May 08, 2009, 07:19:35 AM: Quote from: squirrelciv on May 08, 2009, 06:01:48 AM
Then you 'improve' it by adding more cylinders, twin OH cams, high compression and fuel injection and everything managed by a computer. Now you have a much noisier machine capable of silly speeds that sadly guzzles fuel and is a bitch to start/run/maintain.

See, it's 'improvement'. ;D
Yes, but you can't cut your lawn with one of those! Well I suppose you could try but you probably won't have a great deal of lawn left afterwards. :)

As for the B&S engine I have to say, rather smugly of course, that mine has never let me down but then again at the end of every mowing season I service it fully and clean it down, I also treat it to super unleaded with a splash of Redex and STP fuel detergent - goes like a bomb (not literally!) ;D

Andy
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: johnr on May 08, 2009, 08:13:55 AM: why cant bikes be like lawn mowers? i thought that as the majority of modern bikes are kept in the garage till a sunny sunday afternoon and are then taken out for a couple of hours, and they arent used in the rain, that they on the whole already are!! :D
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest7 on May 08, 2009, 08:27:27 AM: Quote from: johnr on May 08, 2009, 08:13:55 AM
why cant bikes be like lawn mowers? i thought that as the majority of modern bikes are kept in the garage till a sunny sunday afternoon and are then taken out for a couple of hours, and they arent used in the rain, that they on the whole already are!! :D

ROTFLMAO! ;D

MAsterful. Bloody good point, well made.
GC
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Andy M on May 08, 2009, 08:36:53 AM: They could be.

Industrial engines like these run for thousands or hours with nothing but fuel. Car and Truck engines use a lot of the same technology and get close. You can have performance and long service and reliability, it's all about materials and the size of some components.

The only thing stopping the bike makers is the market. Would you buy a new bike because it has 15000 mile service intervals and does 90 mpg? Would you still buy it if it was £1000 more than the competition? Would you buy it if it was 10 mph slower than the competition? The car market broke the cost/performance barrier because the likes of Proton came in and offered long hassle free warranties and free servicing. Their cars improved to the point where people in other dealers and selling to the fleets knew they had to take the hit because if both cars are the same you start looking at the less glamorous features like the hassle of getting the oil done. They passed the info up the line and the manufacturers responded.

There is no impetus in the bike market for anything except styling and performance. It's better if your 3 year old CZX999RS is an unreliable POJ because then Mrs. Weekendrider will understand when you spend £9000 less trade in on a new CZX1001RRS. Even BMW have got their heads round it now, having people saying a 1991 R80GS is the ultimate long range tool isn't good for business when Harley can bore out the motor by 10mm and sell truck loads.

The best one was the Bonneville service interval. My first service book said 4000 mile oil changes. A few weeks after Harley launched a new 883 I got a little package from Hinkley with my new 6000 mile book. No engineering changes required :-\

Andy
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest18 on May 08, 2009, 11:18:19 AM: Quote from: Steffan on May 07, 2009, 10:46:40 PM
...My point was why can't we have bikes that can be similarly abused and yet start reliably and run and run

Steffan

CG125.
Happy now? ;)
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest27 on May 08, 2009, 11:39:34 AM: Hi

CG125 - 10.86hp and 7.2 ftlb from 124cc, only the professional series of B&S make similar torque but from much larger engines.

Not suggesting that the CG would make a good mower motor, but as oone of the more long lasting Jap engines, low stress use and abuse etc, it produces more usable bike poer etc.

B&S make V-twin engines too - but less than 30hp from an 810cc engine - again really well suited to their tatget market, but not to bike use, if you want to sell the bike. As far as I know not even in the US is there a bike made with a B&S lump, though it could.

Guess we loose out because we want more power to weight, and because we will not pay the extra etc.

R
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: trophydave on May 10, 2009, 04:26:31 PM: Strangly the same question has appeared on the RealClassic forum.
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Steffan on May 10, 2009, 06:16:24 PM: Not guilty!!
Merely a manifestation of a commonly held desire for simple reliability in motorcycles.

Steffan
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest7 on May 10, 2009, 06:19:02 PM: If we invert the question and ask "Why can't lawn mowers be more like motorcycles" then we can discuss the need to own numerous lawn mowers in various states of (dis)repair and why this year's Flymo is superior to last year's model (and hey, the new graphics are so coooool).

GC
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Mark on May 10, 2009, 08:49:27 PM: You need to have a look at what my mate Mike made with V twin lawnmower engine.

Heres a clip of work in process and I'll upload a photo of the finished article when I find it.
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest18 on May 10, 2009, 11:02:54 PM: Brilliant ;D sounds mega! What's the engine out of?
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: robG on May 11, 2009, 07:19:59 AM: Top boys . More please .

Rob .
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest27 on May 11, 2009, 08:49:36 AM: Absolutly excellent and proving me wrong yet again!!!!

ON the front of maowers, was having a natter with the man in the local mower shop the other day and was asking about engines - inspired by here. To his mind, you cannot go wrong with a Honda engine, he is less impressed by the B&S, but in the main people use their mowers so little that anything should last in a 'normal' garden. When it comes to serious work some of the higher end 4S engines are OK, but for real world 8 hours per day cutting anything from flat grass to boulder strewn rough ground the Victa 2S is top dog.

I have a fetish for Victas so was pleased to hear this, cannot bring myself to throw my abused and dead Victa in the tip, and dream that one day I will be able to afford a new one ;D

Cutting the grass on Sun I did wonder whether the Victa blade mounts etc are patented - nowt to do with motors this - as the bar on the Mountfield (B&S engine) I was using does not do the job half as well as the individual blades on a great big flywheel on the Victa. True my Victa engine was knackered and took some starting, but once going only runnign out of fuel (1 gal tank) stopped us, with the Mountfield set up I am thankful for the B&S "Reliable Easy Start" technology as I have to restart it every 2 mins or so having run in to some slightly thicker grass or brambles for which there is insufficiant momentum in the blade set-up to trash through.

R
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest40 on May 11, 2009, 01:02:00 PM: Thats cos Victas were made for TOUGH OZZIE lawns, none of that pampered pommy poofy grass here, Mate!
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest18 on May 11, 2009, 03:10:21 PM: Dunno about lawnmowers but my Husqvarna (54cc 2 smoke chainsaw) 254 used to get hammered 8 to 10 hours a day between 5 and 7 days a week on minimal maintenance and it was extremely reliable, still working in fact (although it is retired to minimal use now as I don't do that for a living anymore!)
An awful lot of that was a peak revs too (circa 14K iirc) :o
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest27 on May 11, 2009, 07:49:03 PM: Mmm my Father in Law had a pair of Husky chainsaws and I have my eye on at least one - mind I also like my Sthil brushcutter and wondered if their chainsaws are 'better' than Huskys - only to find whole web forums dedicated to chainsaws and debates as to whether Husky or Sthil make the best.. :)

I will take either.

Smudge - you used to be a tree man? Want a nice holiday in South Wales?????

R
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: Mark on May 11, 2009, 07:49:36 PM: Quote from: Smudge on May 10, 2009, 11:02:54 PM
Brilliant ;D sounds mega! What's the engine out of?

It's a Honda V twin sit on mower engine coupled to a BSA gearbox using a triumph clutch, Bantam tank, Z650 wheels, everything else home built including the frame and springers.

Here is the final product

Mark
Title: Re: Why can't bikes be like lawn mowers
Post by: guest27 on May 11, 2009, 07:53:23 PM: A season ticket for the local A&E and Flamazine for that peg / leg / zorst combo?

Nicely done true custom mind

R