Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: guest27 on April 23, 2009, 08:46:45 AM
-
So we English tend to be a little circumspect about our patron saint - but today is his day, and the birth day and dying day of Old Will
Though that this was a fitting song for St George.
Sorry any Scots, Welsh, Irish, Aussies etc, we are allowed to be English and proud of it now and again...
Vid is a little violent BTW
R
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6MS_OEVnk4&feature=related]Bruce Dickinson "Jerusalem"[/url]
I remember him when he was "Bruce Bruce" - in Samson I think along with Thundersticks?
-
So we English tend to be a little circumspect about our patron saint - but today is his day, and the birth day and dying day of Old Will
Though that this was a fitting song for St George.
Sorry any Scots, Welsh, Irish, Aussies etc, we are allowed to be English and proud of it now and again...
Vid is a little violent BTW
R
[urlhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6MS_OEVnk4&feature=related]Bruce Dickinson "Jerusalem"[/url]
I remember him when he was "Bruce Bruce" - in Samson I think along with Thundersticks?
Stirring stuff ::) But at the very end: "Here is Jerusalem bound in chains, in the dens of [video stops]" In the dens of what? We should be told.
R.
-
Music. Play loud :D
(someone is waving a Welsh flag in one shot, and may not have got the point ;) )
Regards
Richard
-
Cheers Rog, just spent a happy hour listening to the best tunes from Maidens "Killers" album on youtube and reliving my youth lol 8)
As for apologising to the Celts... one of the Englishmen at work hung a George's Cross flag over his desk the other year and sat back awaiting abuse and was instead astonished by the number of people commenting how it was nice to see someone who had a bit of pride about his country ;)
Our flags, and indeed the union flag, are our own, NOT the neo nazis or skinheads or whoever chooses to misappropriate them... let's not be ashamed of them, or our country(/ries) :)
ps. You do realise that my neighbours are about to hate you once I get downstairs and dig out my old records.... :o ;D
-
He is also the patron saint of Catalonia. He was probably a Palestinian or at a minimum a soldier in Palestine in the fourth century and was martyred in 304 during the persecution of Diocletian. He was known in the east as the Great Martyr. He replaced Edward the Confessor as patron saint of England in the 13th century (I think) and was made patron of the order of the garter. He was venerated in these Isles before the Norman conquest (French) but there was a resurgence in interest in his cult as peoples returned from the crusades.
So exactly what you poms have to be crowing about I don't know, but in the spirit of Christian goodwill, by all means carry on, if it makes you feel better.
Steffan
-
Actually Wales is not represented on the Union flag.
Steffan
-
....So exactly what you poms have to be crowing about I don't know,....
Great heavy metal of course... what else? ;) ;D
-
Wrong Patron Saint. Edward the Confessor, last but one English King. I believe, but may be wrong here, that it is to be celebrated on 13th October.
And Wales is indeed represented on the Union Flag, as part of England - see the various Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542.
Regards,
Richard (waiting for the flame wars to start)
-
George is also PS of Portugal and Germany I think.
Wales is not a separate Nation and has never been. It is only Wales because it is the 'foreigners' to the Saxons - ie the bit that had not been 'Saxonised'. Those bits and pieces clubbed together and fell apart for some years and were eventually made part of the "Kingdom of England and Wales" - the area is a number of Principalities who stood together or defeated each other with a common foe - "the English" - who ever they are.
Edward I did a lot to make Wales a single entity - but he considered himself a Norman lord with the English crown, the first King post Norman invasion to consider himself an English king rather than just king of England was Edward III
DNA analysis shows that like the people of Wales are like the rest of the UK a mixed mongrel lot with little Celtic blood, in all probability the "Welsh" are descended from the Basques region and not from the Germanic Celts
The Scots are actually Irish - having driven out the Hibernian and pictish peoples
We are Metisse
Or so I understand
R
-
"The Scots are actually Irish - having driven out the Hibernian and pictish peoples"
Hmmm without getting into a flame war, somewhat of an oversimplification!
The "Scots" certainly came from Ireland and moved / integrated with some of the then indigenous peoples, indeed the West Coast still has a strong Irish influence but they certainly did not "drive out" all the existing peoples.
Ignoring individual cases, I understand there are Norse, Pictish and Hibernian bloodlines in various parts of Scotland, as well as the Irish influence, and that ignores the extremely longstanding links with France, and with Germany (even down to elements of our language, Kirk and Kirche for instance, or Ashet as a large serving dish)
Don't believe the BBC weather map, Scotland is a deceptively large and diverse lump of land, my background is as different to the Billy Connolly stereotype as a cockney to a yorkshireman...
Of course if you're just attempting to wind people up then crack on and ignore my last ;) ;D
-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/saints/george_1.shtml
-
Its my Birthday as well today
Bruce (21 again)
-
He is also the patron saint of Catalonia.
Steffan
And Portugal too - allegedly ;)
-
Incidentally, why is it that the Paddy's have the biggest party in the world to celebrate their patron saint who it just so happened was Welsh! No snake stories, please! :o
-
Wrong Patron Saint. Edward the Confessor, last but one English King. I believe, but may be wrong here, that it is to be celebrated on 13th October.
And Wales is indeed represented on the Union Flag, as part of England - see the various Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542.
Regards,
Richard (waiting for the flame wars to start)
That's what I said, I know who Edwards the bloody confessor was ::) He was patron saint of England before George is all I was saying.
-
Wales is not a separate Nation and has never been. It is only Wales because it is the 'foreigners' to the Saxons - ie the bit that had not been 'Saxonised'. Those bits and pieces clubbed together and fell apart for some years and were eventually made part of the "Kingdom of England and Wales" - the area is a number of Principalities who stood together or defeated each other with a common foe - "the English" - who ever they are.
Edward I did a lot to make Wales a single entity - but he considered himself a Norman lord with the English crown, the first King post Norman invasion to consider himself an English king rather than just king of England was Edward III
DNA analysis shows that like the people of Wales are like the rest of the UK a mixed mongrel lot with little Celtic blood, in all probability the "Welsh" are descended from the Basques region and not from the Germanic Celts
The Scots are actually Irish - having driven out the Hibernian and pictish peoples
We are Metisse
Or so I understand
R
Rather depends on how you want to define Nation, wouldn't you say? An interesting take on the history of these islands, probably more a reflection of your age and the the way it was taught back in Saxon times ;D
Wales was incorporated into England administratively hence England and Wales, by Henry the Eighth which is perhaps a little more recent that "never has been".
The English, whoever they are? I thought that was you lot? I thought that was what you were celebrating?
To be frank I think you chaps rather missed my point - apart from the pom teasing - clearly I am getting too subtle. The point is that strictly speaking Saints days has little or nothing to do with nationhood, patriotism or jingoism, it is of theological and ecclesial import.
Steffan
You are metisse or you own or you want a Metisse?
-
Happy birthday Bruce!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D
Did you buy the Norton something nice?
Steffan
-
To be frank I think you chaps rather missed my point - apart from the pom teasing - clearly I am getting too subtle. The point is that strictly speaking Saints days has little or nothing to do with nationhood, patriotism or jingoism, it is of theological and ecclesial import.
Steffan
Or an adaptation of an earlier pagan (or other local) feast day/celebration/worship day?
Stay subtle Steffan old boy, it gets my vote (and raises a chuckle), but more importantly yes! HAPPY BIRTHDAY BRUCE!
-
I'm going to the Stafford Show this weekend with quite a list of things to get for the Big4 new front tyre, some more stainless steel nuts and bolts and various other bits and pieces fear not you will not need sunglasses on to look at it next time you see it.
-
Bling it up big boy ;D
Or should that be Bling it up Big 4 boy? ;D ;D
Steffan
-
Interesting discussion as a son of a yorkshire man, who probably has ancestery in the scotish border country. A mother whos' father was chinese malay and mother was an illegitamate child of a french father and ?? malay mother, I consider myself english first and british second with just a passing interest in malaysia. I was also born in malaysia on an army base.
I also consider myself an adobted yellow belly and have married one (steveL knows what I mean)
So what is English? and where is our roots?
Just be proud of what you are no one is truly what they think they are.
I was once in the states talking to a guy who said he was scotish with his ancestors coming from the county of Wales, Idon't think he was joking either. I didn't have the heart to correct him.
However I hope that the connection of motorcycling goes across all cutures and nationalities.
happy st georges day. :) :) :)
beeman
-
And I'll raise a glass to that beeman. :)
Being of an island race, I think this sums it up rather nicely:
"Never brag about your ancestors coming over on the Mayflower; the immigration laws weren't as strict in those days."
- Lew Lehr
Alternatively, "The flotsum and jetsum has to find landfall somewhere!"
Here's to you all, Bill.
-
From Smudge's link
"He is patron saint not only of England but also of Aragon, Catalonia, Georgia, Lithuania, Palestine, Portugal, Germany and Greece; and of Moscow, Istanbul, Genoa and Venice (second to Saint Mark). He's also patron saint of soldiers, archers, cavalry and chivalry, farmers and field workers, riders and saddlers, and he helps those suffering from leprosy, plague and syphilis. In recent years he has been adopted as patron saint of Scouts."
So just a few then.. :)
As to Wales - well have really only gained an interest since living here and getting brassed off with some of the pro-Welsh propaganda that gets shoved out by a very few people with very big voices.
At the time of the Saxons, England was not a unified country, it was a number of separate parts, ruled either from within or from Denmark etc. Chunks of Scotland were at the time parts of Denmark and Wales was also a number of separate entities, who would band together - sometimes - in a common cause, just as the kingdoms of England would. Cymru is the name of a royal house from the South West of Wales, the etymology of "Wales" is non-germanic foreigner, to the Saxons the Brythonic people of these Isles and the people of Roman extraction were all Welsh, Wales became the name applied to the whole area of the mid and south of these isles that were not 'Germanic'. Hence why Cornwall was officially West Wales for many years, despite being nothing to do with 'Wales'. So the single entity of Wales did not arise from a joining together of the 'Welsh' - who had some very equitable but divisive rules of inheritance that served to prevent unification, but from what they were not. (Germanic / Saxon)
The Welsh Marches were neither English nor Welsh up until Henry VIII, and Monmouth has been part of England or Wales many times over the last 500 years.
It is great to have local identity and I think the local focus places like Totness are developing under the Transition ideas is great, but a lot of "Welsh" history is being rewritten to serve an end, rather than as a foundation for social cohesiveness.
One of the revisions I find particularly interesting is that about Owain Glyndwr and how (apparently) he would have become King of England and Wales, or an independent Wales at least, had Hotspur not given battle to the Kings forces at Shrewsbury, rather he should have waited until Glyndwr's forces got there. There are no reliable historical records to show that the Welsh forces were anywhere near Shrewsbury, and they had actually been defeated a week before in Carmarthen. The Kings forces were not supposed to be in Shrewsbury and they came out of the town and essentially gave battle to the rebel forces, who were apparently holding the field until Hotspur lifted his visor - for air, to see how things were going - and was struck in the face and killed by either a well aimed arrow or an unfortunate stroke of luck.
The extension that had battle not been joined, a more organised Royal force would have been defeated is an interesting jump, the next one that if the Percy's etal had been successful they would have allowed Glyndwr to establish a power base in Wales or become a ruler in his own right is debatable. But the current story is that the Welsh would now be an independent nation had Percy just waited for Owain...
What this has to do with St George I just do not know...
R
Rubbish spelling is down to my inability not due to not caring