Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: guest18 on February 11, 2008, 11:14:01 PM
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Ok Transalp John and I are going to do the Elefant not next year (work is looking like getting in the way in a serious manner) but the year after, yes 2010 :o
So the thought has begun and we were thinking it could be good to both go on the one outfit (half the fuel bill, the option to sleep/get out of the wind etc for some of the trip etc etc)
So I wondered what the collective opinion of the TC Chairborne warriors is...
Is a 500 XBR outfit up to dragging two blokes and luggage across Europe?
Would a 650 lump be significantly better?
Is this plan the ravings of lunatics? (and therefore perfectly normal when you put it in the context of the Elefanten ;D ;D)
Also, having had a sit in the squire chair tonight... it is *small*! (and there is *no* protection from a bumo or whatever :-\ ) I wonder if it is *too* small and I should perhaps be looking at trying to track down one like GC's? (with a nice protective perimeter bar into the bargain)... or is that too heavy with a passenger ???
I've probably got a year and a half to sort things out, but it all has to be cheap enough to make Andy blush ;)
What's the thoughts guys? and who else is committing to go!?!?! (save a tenner a month and you're most of the way there ;) ;D )
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Get ourself a complete outfit from Ebay, that's how to save money.
You'll need a bigger chair than you've got and (I hate to say it) more than one cylinder.
GC
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Hmmm doesn't work, I need the 50mpg!! (the chair was packed to the gunnels last time with heavy stuff I didn't use and cruising at 60ish I was still getting good economy... and it's on the standard gearing just now :) )
If I lose 5 to 8 stone of crap, add twelve stone of passenger and drop a tooth on the sproket surely I'll get away with that ???
Buying another outfit is out just now... although I've always fancied a dnepr/whatever if anyone wants a swap!!
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You're getting 50mpg because your chair is so light. Get a bigger chair and you will need more fuel to drag it around.
The other argument is to use a bike with sufficient torque and power so that the addition of the chair doesn't increase the MPG figure excessively.
Of course we all know that the ideal tug is a Beemer airhead.
GC
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Of course we all know that the ideal tug is a Beemer airhead.
GC
We do?
... this isn't because you have an airhead BMW and a Ural sidecar chassis for sale is it ;) :P
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GC 'd flog sweetbreads to castrated dogs given half a chance! ;D
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GC 'd flog sweetbreads to castrated dogs given half a chance! ;D
Possibly... but I was only teasing... unless you want to swap?! ;)
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hi smudge,just remind me how big is transalp john,his size must be taken into consideration when thinking of a chair,where is your luggage going to be,on the bike and in/on the chair,if you are going to do this rally two up with a chair no matter what the bike forget about mpg,if you want to do it on a 650 single be prepared to do it slowly.
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The Bonneville has a supposed 60 hp, will lug the heavy/square Ural chair about at 65 mph all day, maxes out with 85 on the GPS and turns in 45 mpg/140 miles range if you cruise with the trucks. The Sidecar is comfy enough for an adult passenger up to the fuel range and the boot/rack/pannier options would allow Elefant levels of gear to be lugged. All in all a fair BMW substitute!
My BMW R1100R, 80 hp, with the tiny plastic Meteor chair cruised at 70, topped out at 101, did 41 mpg/130 miles.
My Ural outfit, 36 hp on a good day, cruised at 45, topped out at 65, did 36 mpg and usually blew up before the tank was empty :P Seriously, if you look at Urals make sure it's a 750 built after 2005, or its been owned by Tim for at least 10 years.
The big thing with outfits and range is the nut on the throttle. I can drop 10 mpg by going with the cars instead of the trucks :-\
I'd say an XB type outfit would do the job, but is going to be slow. You have roughly 600 miles to do from your chosen port to the rally. If your outfit is cramped, lacks electrical power for heated kit and as a result you stop every 50 miles and average 30 mph, that's 20 plus hours in the saddle or over 2 days if the weather is bad. I doubt you'll sleep in the chair while it's moving, but two drivers will probably give you a few extra hours. Average 45 (that's what the Bonnevilles average was at the Dragon/Llanthoney according to the GPS) and you have two easy days and might well make it in one. If you are Mr. Morgan you can knock it off in 16 hours and still have the energy to ride up a ski-slope 8). The thing is, the extra fuel a BM/Bonneville/Diversion type outfit will use is more than paid for in the hotel/food/beer if you use an extra day or two. Petrol despite evidence to the contrary is still quite cheap, a hotel room's worth is a lot of miles unless you are dead on your feet.
I'd totally agree with buying a complete outfit off e-bay. The Ural/Bonneville set up cost me something in the region of £2.5K to get to where it is now. If I had garage space I could have bought a decent enough outfit complete and still had the Bonneville as a solo. The price of a few new fittings and some wiring alone will make the purchase of a complete outfit probably cheaper, especially if you sort it and advertise as "6 months MOT, just did 1500 mile trip" when you get back.
Don't underestimate the amount of kit and what it'll weigh. You need two army sleeping bags, four sleep mats etc. In 2004 I filled a Ural body and a Touratech box with the wrong kit and was cold. I think now I could be warm with a Ural bodies worth of the right gear, but that does rather make a passenger a problem. I'd also worry about how warm you'd be in the chair, sitting still in a cramped space isn't good for the circulation and you'll have to share what electrical power you have. Sorry if I'm raining on your parade.
I'm plotting an attempt for 2009 or 2010. As this involves getting a new job, paying for the wedding, having enough left over for a decent honeymoon and then raising the trip money I'm not holding my breath :'(
Andy
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Well.....when i was a nipper the only transport we had was an outfit, a lovingly restored Sunbeam 600cc (1937) single, onto which was bolted a double adult chair, and we toured everywhere with it, me on the pillion, me mum and sister in the chair AND the luggage strapped on all over the place....I remember touring scotland....the lake district and the west country....ok not at any great speed....and fuel economy wasn't an issue.
is there still a yoof hostel at the top of llanberis?
hell.....i remember it made it over all the great passes, llanberis (ok...i spelt it wrong!) hardknott, wrynose...I remember we followed a guy over hardknott driving his morris oxford up in reverse gear as first was too high to get going......would have been 1956...happy days
Wierd isn't it.......reading the above, its dawned on me that Dads 'old' sunbeams (he had 4) weren't as 'old' as my SRX's are now.....just seemed that way...probably because it had girder forks and rigid rear end and appeared to be (and was) from a different era.
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Ok gents, all good stuff :) Don't worry about raining on my parade, all good info is worth hearing!
So the concencus is:
Buying a complete outfit from ebay is a good idea
60hp+ is about right
We need a good sized (Ural sized) chair pref with a screen
Bike needs a handlebar fairing as minimum
Needs a decent alternator and pref a car battery
Agreed so far??
(I can sort heated grips, heated chair seat etc no probs ;) )
So...
What do the resident experts reckon the going rate is for a useable/saveable outfit on ebay?
What is the opinion on BMW engine conversions for Dnepr/Ural/Cossack? How difficult? Worthwhile? Sensible?
As to luggage we are both fairly experienced at packing small/light, some say obsessive ::) and last time we were warm with one to two panniers worth of warm kit each :) But then we don't mind slumming it in some areas! (You do need the *right* kit though!)
Thanks GC Jules Andy, Steve for the input so far though, very useful and interesting :)
ps, John is... a "robust" citizen! So probably wouldn't fit comfortably in the tiny chair on the XBR just now...
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Only thing on right now is a Jawa that looks nice but is too small (no bids at £200), a scooter thats silly money and is too small and a Ural M72 that you'd need to fix, MOT and prove was pre-1981 before you could even drive it :(
I'd work on a £2000 investment (a lot I know) for something BMW airhead R/K, Diversion, Moto-Guzzi, Japanese tourer type thing in decent mechanical nick but cosmetically challenged. I call it an investment as prices seem quite stable, so set it up as a winter ride (new tyres etc.), MOT it and flog it at the start of the spring season and I'd guess you'd have a chance to see most of your money again.
Well done BMW-Ural's seem to work, but IMHO all you gain for keeping the horrible Russian gearbox is the reverse gear. Why not just take a pukka beamer and put a chair on it, buy one with a chair etc? This way the gearbox is oil tight, has roughly the right ratio's for the motorway and doesn't have bearings that are likely to try and sneak out the drain hole. OTOH if you are getting into machineing the two casings so they bolt together why not just strip a Ural, replace the rubbish bits and make it work like it should have done on day one? Urals seem to work if you've got the time and cash to do them right. If you had a ****y Ural and a spare BMW engine I can see the attraction, but I don't think it's something I'd aim for. The thing with Urals I seem to notice is that a lot of people get them for the looks (seller on e-bay sounds like an antiques dealer), as substitute classics/mechano kits or on a whim (guilty as charged) which means the second hand usefulness as transport must vary massively. Add to that a BMW engine that was either done in a custom shop or had an angle grinder taken to it and I'd want a year or three for shakedown before an Elefant :-\
Andy
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Hmmm interesting, the reasons for considering a ruski outfit are in no particular order:
Cheap,
Available,
Designed for a chair so no extra cost hassle getting it to steer well (leading link forks as far as I can tell are 1, a good thing and 2, hideously expensive!)
Yeah, I'll admit it, looks! (who hasn't watched Great Escape/Where Eagles Dare and not fancied one?)
Just wondered about BMW engines as a response to the general unreliability, if you're having to machine casings to make one fit it starts to get a bit silly, (like airhead prices ;) ;D )
I assume a complete BMW engine and box isn't a bolt in either :-\
I saw the M72, isn't that the sidevalve with an even worse reputation than the ohv one? If I were bad I could always combine it with a frame/v5 from another source.... of course I'm not bad so I wouldn't!! ;)
£2k is unfortunately way too much money for me to risk on a temporary toy :( even if I managed to sell the XBR for say £500 I'd still need to find £1500 before I even start to save for ferry/fuel/beer etc etc it's just too much of a gamble to get to the selling time and find it doesn't, or (god forbid) have a shunt and have the assessor write it off at a book of £500 or whatever they think they can squeeze you down to, minus excess and plus the obligatory 6 month wait (if you use a lawyer to hurry them up >:( )
On the plus side I have time in hand and good mechanical ability! It's just the folding that is (as usual) lacking ::) ;)
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Last year Tim bought an old XJ900 outfit with large covered chair (a smaller version of Jethro's if you can remember that) and leading links for £900
Jethro sold his newer 900 Diversion with large chair, links, 15"rear wheel for less than £1600 IIRC.
GC
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Getting better ;)
I still reckon the XBR would manage a (slightly) bigger chair and a passenger with slightly lowered gearing and possibly a 600 barrel / piston for a bit more torque...
After all, look at the amount of lard the russian / chinese tugs haul around on 30hp ish ish (and I know my 500 makes that sort of power because it was dynoed out of curiosity ;) )
Ok the cruising speed would probably be down to 50mph-ish but still.... it could save us £1k upwards and that's a s**tload of fuel/b&b/motorway food etc etc...
Of course a larger bike/chair would be better.... but we will have to see how the saving goes :)
Incidentally, good news tonight, the outfit has been fired up again 8) and I managed to unsieze the fuel filler ;D and I reckon with a new front indicator, a sand down of the front disc (badly rusted) and a fresh tyre on the chair it's close to mot ready! :o
Doubt the downpipes are going to last much longer though so I'd better get it in soon lol
edited to add, tried running the engine against the brake and there was no sign of it dying against a (small) load so fingers crossed the replacement carb is playing too....)
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I gave my last spare complete sidecar away and the only other chassis I've got is earmarked for another project.
I also gave my Wasp chair to my brother...
I must be effing mad.
GC
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Here's the TUG!
Ebay: 220201564959
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Oh yes...
(http://i23.ebayimg.com/06/a/000/78/13/f612_1.JPG)
Putting a sidecar on that would affect it about as much as strapping a rowing boat to a supertanker.
GC
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Bet it doesn't stay at a sensible price for very long though... and if it does, what else is wrong with it and how much will it cost to fix :o
Come on chaps, I'm trying to save money here, not spend it! and I know how much big fours cost to run, we'd be cheaper taking a van down there with my outfit in the back!!
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I must be effing mad.
GC
Nope just demonstrating your generous nature ;) think of all the good karma your building up! ;D
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My 500cc XBR outfit, loaded up, does 40mpg at best and 30mpg at worst. Fully loaded it struggles to reach 60mph but can cruise at 50 all day... unless you meet a headwind or hill.
That's with a heavier chair than yours and a 40t rear sprocket instead of 36t.
GC
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Smudge, re BMW/ Ural / Dnepr convertions.
You would need to find a Dnepr MT11 outfit with a blown engine - lots around as Dnepr made the cranks from chocolate!! The dnepr was designed for hauling a chair unlike the Ural and has a slightly longer frame and the reverse gearbox which is a must as the look on peoples faces when you reverse out of a parking space is priceless!! (also annoys Goldwingers and probably GC ;D) You also get the TLS front brake which is pretty good.
You'll need a donor BMW engine - go for the 800cc as the 650 is gutless and the 1000cc Will tear the cush drive apart and wreck the gearbox. But be warned the BM engines often need some remedial work on the cylinder heads.
The BM engine will bolt straight into the Dnepr chassis but you have to make up a plate to join the engine to the dnepr box as the engine has 5 mounting studs and the gearbox has4. You also need a series 2 BMW clutch plate which has the same spline pattern as the Dnepr gearbox shaft. You cannot use the BMW box unless you also use the driveshaft and bevel box as the drive shaft spins the opposite way to the Dnepr and you end up with 4 reverse gears!! You also need to make sure the clutch is properly centred or it will rip the clutch apart.
You can run a car battery from the BM alternator in the boot of the chair.
It's a bit of hassle, butthey actually make a very nice handling outfit- or so I'm told by those that run them (my Ural was a solo).
If you did want to try this let me know as I know a couple of people who can probably give you much more info.
PS The M72 is a 750cc sidevalve and cruises at 45-50 mph but willpull a tank up a mountain!!! nice bikes but a bit slow.
......I'll go and put my anorak away now.....
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THis is more tempting:
180213710073
or it would be if Squire didn't use the worst hood design I've ever seen on a road vehicle :o
What is the point of a hood fixing that collects all the air deflected by the screen and acts like a giant sail ??? It's the same sort of fastening they use on mine and it is utter garbage! If it wasn't for that the chair would be ideal for what I want... (as long as we just pack two sleeping bags, two thermarests a cheap tent and a toothbrush each :D)
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ahhh now we're talking Steve ;D I assume that MT11 outfits's are affordable in the post exploding crank state?
Do you know if anyone has a plan/diagram of the adaptor plate?
and yes, I'd be interested in getting more info even if only for technical interest, I presume if one was to use a BMW drivetrain you would be exchanging reverse gear for more reliability? Or are the gearboxes not that bad once they've been used for a while?
Please, put the anorak back on... it suits this particular thread ;) ;D
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TUG and HAIRNET both in Scotland and all for <£800, Andy230 would be proud!
As for these MT11 or M72's, I have a friend who barrels a Cheng Yang around on sidecar tyres as a solo and performs with the reverse in pub carparks ;D I will see if an image is available :D
He may also be aware of various old warhorses including Z something or others. Picked up a fully working but cosmeticaly challenged 1100 Custom thing for under £250! Again another good TUG.
My regards, 'Goodnightall'
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THis is more tempting:
180213710073
or it would be if Squire didn't use the worst hood design I've ever seen on a road vehicle
To be fair, it's the same chair as mine and the hood (in place before the panzar op) did the job quite well.
It has to be high to clear the passenger's bonce.
If the reserve was below £300 this would be a good buy.
Cheers
GC
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Best place to pick up an MT11 would probably be through the classic type magazines or local small ads or the Cossack owners Club. They tend to get a bit expensive on Ebay etc.
I dont have a diagram but I'll see what I can find out.
The dnepr box is usually pretty reliable also the Dnepr/Ural cush drive is much better than the BMW ( I use to run a BMW and the Ural cush was much smoother).
I'll have a dig around and get back to you ;)
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TUG and HAIRNET both in Scotland and all for <£800, Andy230 would be proud!
HAIRNET ???
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IMHO don't go mad looking for leading link forks. If you are under 70 and willing to change the front tyre (avoid ones with a central tread line, you want square section, block/cats paw tread types. MITAS and Heidenau do them) tele's work just fine on tourer/cruiser/naked type outfits. Even if the geometry of the tele's is a bit extreme, wider bars run cheaper than links.
Both the Triumph and the Ural run/ran tele's with no steering damper and are fine. The BMW ran links and a car tyre with a damper and could do bar to bar tank slappers at 65 mph :o The steering load wasn't notably lighter.
Controversial I know, but it's just my opinion.
Andy
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BMW/Dnepr convertion
Smudge , have a look at this BMW/Dnepr (http://groups.msn.com/UralDneprRiders/biketech.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=1942&LastModified=4675656164055260108)
Also look in the photos section for the pictures he's talking about.
I have found an article by a chap I knew who did one of the first convertions which doesn't use an adapter plate but modifies the gearbox and doesn't need the gearbox shaft altering.also has details of bmw/dnepr wiring and clutch centering tool if thats any help.
There seems to be quite a bit of stuff on the internet if you search around.
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Yeah I'm finding bits and bobs but I'm always hesitant about some of the "expert" work shown on 't Interweb ;) The owners group looks like a good place to watch too :)
That's an interesting conversion in the link, it's certainly not *too* difficult looking at the work involved. Do you have the link for your friends article? :)
Wonder if anyone local has one I can blag a go on, hmmmm ;D
Oh and everyone cross your fingers at 1030 Friday when the xbr goes for mot! :o
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http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300199160424&ru=http://search.ebay.co.uk:80/300199160424_W0QQ_trksidZm37QQfromZR40QQfviZ1
E-bay #300199160424
Not quite what you are looking for and missing some paperwork, but perhaps one that'll keep your hopes up?
Andy
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Plenty time and plenty opportunity yet ;)
2k for no paperwork (or proof of ownership!), no mot, no tax an unknown engine fitted by an unknown mechanic..... :o he's keen!
I'd want a *long* good look at something like that before buying from ebay!
Thanks for pointing it out tho :)
XBR just passed it's mot so the XBR outfit section of the club is up by another roadworthy* one ;D
*ok perhaps "road legal" is a better description! :D
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Ben Hur rides again! ;D
Congratulations. Is the windcheating apparatus still operational?
Weekend looks set fair.
Regards, Bill.
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Weekend looks good :) and the chair may have a job on sunday because swmbo has the car away and I might be going diving at Fifeness if the weather holds! :o :D
The Top part of the fairing is indeed still on the bike, although I need to sort out a crack from my little chariot incident the other year :-[ I havent fitted the lowers because, like GC, I'm reluctant to chop them up to get them over the sidecar mounting tubes :-\
Off tomorrow to buy a bigger bag of sand ;) the hardened old charioteers may scoff but this chair is so light that it will pop in the air with no real provocation at all and it means I have the choice of lairy or slow on normal roundabouts ::) still a laugh though once you get over the initial horrors ;D
I think I may have worked out why though.... this one came off an MZ250 iirc (sure Steffan will correct me if I'm wrong!) and yet when I look at the manufacturers website they are clearly selling them (at vast prices! :o) as scooter chairs, 55kg huh? Explains why the XBR goes well with it! http://www.watsonian-squire.com/pv1sidecar.htm
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Nah Smudge......Old charioteers did that all the time.....my dad used a big slab of slate.....i used my spanner box and a jerry can half full of petrol....
all this chair chat makes me want to get back into it again :-)