Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: pigafetta on September 26, 2007, 09:05:00 PM
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Hi everyone.
I'm thinking of picking up a cheap outfit to fetch my lad to school and back. It doesn't have to be smart or powerful or owt, it just has to do a couple of miles a couple of times a day. I'm looking to spend as litlle as possible but I want something that can be got on the road without much ado or expense. I fancied contacting Smudge about the XBR he posted a while back but I've no way to pick it up (from Dunfermline I think) and didn't fancy getting the train up there then riding it all the way back to Wales given that I have bugger all experience with sidecars.
Anyway, theres a bloke selling a 1981 Kawasaki 440Ltd outfit close to my Dads place on Anglesey that I'm thinking about. Its on Ebay, bids start at £500. Apparently its a bit scruffy but in good working order. So, what do you think? Have any of you ever ridden/owned one of these things? What price seems reasonable? Anybody know anything I should know before I go for it?
I'd be grateful for any advice. I haven't really got a clue...
Cheers,
Dave
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find someone who has ridden sidecars regularly and take them when you go for a look at any outfits.
bad paint and corroded electrical connectors are easy to sort out, but if the chair hasn't been fitted properly you'll be waisting your time. someone who knows about outfits will know within a couple of minutes if its a good 'un or a bad 'un. if its fitted badly it'll always be a nightmare to ride.
remember, you can't polish a turd.
bullet350
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This one eh?
(http://i9.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/b8/b2/89eb_12.JPG)
Chair and outfit seem to have a bit of 'lean in' which isn't ideal. However, it would probably make a great little rig as long as the bike is ok. The Squire chair looks to be in better nick than some you see on Ebay. It's got a decent wheel and looks to have been loved once.
Wide handlebars would be an advantage for charioteering too.
Ask him to take a picture either head on or arse on so that you can see how the bike sits next the chair. Having said that, it's not terribly hard to adjust the mounts to give the required amount of lean and toe-in. And there's lots of us here to give advice.
I'm confused as to what he's on about with the steering damper. You will need one fitted.
Yep. looks good for £500.
GC
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if its fitted badly it'll always be a nightmare to ride.
remember, you can't polish a turd.
bullet350
Good point. I assumed that the chair had been fitted with decent Squire fittings, but of course that's only a guess without decent piccies. Chances are that the fittings are up to the job, but as you say, it may need some fettling to get the geometry right.
I've just mailed the seller asking for piccies of the chair mounts.
Perhaps a TC sidecar section night out can be arranged, along with a morning of chair fettling? ;)
GC
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The Kawa 440 has a good reputation for long life.
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Yup, thats the one.
Thanks for the input. From what I've gathered so far, the steering damper needs adjusting as he's had the chair off but its rideable. Its initially only got to go a few miles to my Dads place anyway, where it'll be suitably fettled. I'd be grateful if you'd give us an opinion of the chair mounts when the photos appear. I'll contact the seller for some front and rear shots.
The bike itself I can deal with as longer as theres nothing major. If they have a fairly good reputation then thats a good start. I just want to make sure I don't buy a big pain in the arse.
If nothing turns up to put me right off or if the bidding doesn't get away from me, I'll probably go for it.
Thanks for info, if anything else comes to mind let me know.
Dave B
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Pics of chair mounts have been added...
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110173976540&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110173976540&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001)
Any opinions gratefully accepted.
Dave B
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I have been thinking of a similar thing - let us know how it goes.
R
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Saw this on flreabay and thought GC could write a nice flowery bit about the juxposition of the iron cross rear light and the Christian fish sticker.....
Mind from what GC said to me I guess the front end is worth the purchase?
Not that I can or would. There is also a little Jawa stroker combo on there - that is more like me..
R
here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1980-YAMAHA-RED-BLACK-XS1100-SIDECAR-OUTFIT_W0QQitemZ110173451293QQihZ001QQcategoryZ9809QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)
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Or even (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1993-NEVAL-Burgandy_W0QQitemZ290164896308QQihZ019QQcategoryZ424QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem).. looks nice but one has to wonder how big his pants are to get all of that lot in and what he is going to do with the pensioner?....
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I've stuck a bid on the Kwak 440. We'll see what happens. I haven't got a huge amount of cash so if it gets a few bidders I'll probably get left behind.
I saw the Neval. I don't trust that fella. He's got a bit of a gut on him but theres no way his pants are going to be big enough to hold all those spares.
Dave
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Perhaps a TC sidecar section night out can be arranged, along with a morning of chair fettling? ;)
GC
I know of a suitable location ;) might even get mine back on the road for it!! :o
S ;D
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The chair mounts look okay, they are all proper sidecar mounts. The devil is, as they say, in the detail, but they are waaay better than that clown who fitted a Dnepr chair using jubliee clips ::)
Cheers
GC
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I remember that. He was driving his kids around in that thing! :o
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Well, I've won the chariot! I went very slightly over budget, got it for £620. Hoping to pick it up thursday. I'll let you know how I get on. :)
Dave B
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Well, I've won the chariot! I went very slightly over budget, got it for £620. Hoping to pick it up thursday. I'll let you know how I get on. :)
Dave B
Excellent. You'll never look back. In fact I wouldn't recommend looking back ;-)
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Well, I've won the chariot! I went very slightly over budget, got it for £620. Hoping to pick it up thursday. I'll let you know how I get on. :)
Dave B
They are AMAZING FUN !
Bit of a black art but stick with it.
I've had 4 and starting to build my 5th.First was a Jawa,small and v.light right up to the last bruiser 900 Divi and double adult chair.
Really missed not having one for the last few months now cant wait to get the next sorted.
So much fun and can be a head turner too.
Best of luck.
Jethro
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Cheers Chaps
I've never owned a Kawasaki! ;D
I'm dead excited about it but a little apprehensive. I think the ride home's gonna be a steep learning curve. I've only ridden one once, an A65 about 20 years ago and only went a couple of hundred yards up the road and back.
Can you confirm the law regarding helmets for me? I have no intention of going anywhere without them but, as I understand it, helmets are not compulsory on an outfit. Is that right? And is that just for the person in the chair or the rider too? Also, is it ok to ride with a pillion and a kid in the chair at the same time? Is it ok to stuff 2 small kids into a single person chair? Do kids need to be strapped/nailed/glued in?
Sorry about the barrage of dopey questions, the DVLA site doesn't seem to have much to say about it.
Ta,
Dave
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For all things legal with an outfit you can pretty much think that the Bike is a Bike and the Sidecar a Car (or maybe a trailer!). Things like construction and use are utterly vauge on the subject, but the helmet law is clear. Anyone on the bike must wear one, anyone in the chair doesn't have to. This is UK only BTW, Europe (if you get that far) has some different rules and it's better for everyone to wear a lid.
To be able to drive anything bike like without a helmet it needs to be a Tricycle or light Quadricycle. To qualify you need a symetrical arrangement of wheels (C&U regs). Register an outfit as a Trike and you should always be refused an MOT as the wheels are in the wrong place (bet they don't have a tick box for that one)!
Google Ural USA, there is a decent sidecar drivers manual on the web site if you want a refresher.
Should be taking the Bonneville for the start of the chair fiting tomorrow if everything goes to plan.
Andy
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Thanks Andy.
One more thing (for now!), Any ideas for insurance? Cheap is important. I'm with Bennetts for the XBR but they won't let me add another bike to my current policy. So if anyone has any recommendations...
Cheers all,
DaveB
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I dropped Bennetts over that, I'm now with Carole Nash.
Andy
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Ever had one of those days?
I went to pick up my new outfit yesterday. What a stinker! :'( You have to bear in mind that I bought it on the understanding that it could be ridden away MOT'd as long as I got the legal side covered). It was miles away from an MOT pass and proper scruffy, rear tyre was knackered, chain was dry and rusty, Left hand downpipe very rotten, wiring to the chair had been cut and the chair was mounted really badly. It ran like a bag of poo. Engine started and sounded OK but had no bollocks at all, it could barely pull the chair. The chair itself was really nice but the fella was and idiot and I got the distinct impression he was hoping to take me for a muppet so I politely told him to shove it, took my money and went home.
I'm a bit gutted really. I've lost money on the insurance and the cost of transport getting there and I stuck a load of petrol in it too. Not to mention a whole day p!ssing about when I have other things to do. I really wanted the bike, I wanted it to be good.
Still, apart from that, I had quite a nice day and a good laugh hanging out with my Dad. :)
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Good man for telling him to stuff it - and I would report him on Ebay too for not telling the truth.
R
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The bike simply wasn't roadworthy, there was no way it could be ridden away as arranged. If it was just the worn tyre I might have let him get away with it but the more I looked, the more problems I found. The bloke reckoned he was a bike mechanic and built trikes for a living. Righty-oh.
The bloke phoned my Missus yesterday when I was out to tell me that he'd got the bike running ok now if I was interested. I think not. He also left me positive feedback on Ebay saying that I payed promptly etc. Very odd. I'll not be doing the same for him.
Chalk it up to experience I suppose. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt but Ebay is always a bit risky. Anway, I'm once again on the lookout for a cheap but serviceable outfit in the North Wales/Northwest area. If anybody spots anything interesting tip us the wink.
Thanks everyone.
Dave B
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Seriously, you want to keep an eye out for a Ural/ Dnepr outfit. They are built like a tank, built to pull a chair, dead simple to work on and, contrary to popular belief, reliable transport. You can probably pick up an older one for that sort of money and with russian bikes an older bike is'nt a problem, in fact the older ones are arguably better than the newer ones. I've been in the cossack owners club for many years and they take their bikes all over.. just look around at the Dragon/ Elephant rallies.
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I think if I had the money I would have one - I like them, real basic I know. Is it right that some of them have drive to the sidecar wheel too?
Oh I guess what I would really like - and apologies for the phoenetic spelling of my best memory of the word - is a Kleinkatenrad (?) - one of the WW2 german things with BMW M/C front end an a troop carrying track laying rear. - Would be great for the shopping!
R
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OK - they look like
this (http://www.panzerworld.net/pictures/00010.jpg)
and are called Kleines Kettenkraftrad (Sd Kfz 2) (small tracked vehicle w/ one wheel)
and it was an Opel 1500/4 not a BMW, well I cannot get it all right...
R
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That'd turn a few heads in Sainsburys car park!
My mate had a Ural in his shop for a service a couple of weeks ago. It was pretty new, looked excellent. some of them do have a driven sidecar wheel but you have to have the chair on the right. I'd definitely have one if it popped up in my price range. You used to see them regularly on Ebay pretty cheap but I've noticed prices have gone up a bit in the last year or so.
Dave B
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The Dnepr MT16 has sidecar drive, the chair has to be on the right as the drive shaft to the chair comes off the bevel drive housing. I think you can also get a diff lock kit.The best bit with russian outfits though is the reverse gear - you want to see the jaws drop in Sinsbury's car park as you REVERSE out of the parking bay. COC had a rally on the same site as the Goldwing owners and we challenged the 1800CC goldwingers ( with the pretend reverse that runs off the starter motor) to a race twice around rally site in reverse but they wouldn't play!!
Have you seen the Ural promotional film showing just what these things can do?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=dN5PAwc1ns8
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WOW - they are having fun.
So a 2X3 would not be allowed in the UK as it is not LHS sidecar?
R
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I was wondering about that. Are RHS sidecars not allowed in the UK? When that ural was in for service at my mates place he was telling me that there is a bloke from round here somewhere that bought one with a driven RHS sidecar that had previously been removed and another fitted to the LHS. This bloke was in the process of converting it back. Would that not be road legal then?
Dave
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Before a certain date they are legal right hand sidecars that is,I went with a mate on his Dneper to a BSA rally in Holland earlier this year, which has a right hand chair both the rear wheel and the sidecar wheel are driven it also has reverse gear and a BMW 800cc engine in it. I do know somebody in Shropshire where I live who has a Ural Outfit with a right hand chair for sale I think he wants about £800 for it.If you are interested I could put you into contact with him.State of the outfitI have no idea.
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If the outfit was registered before, I think, 1980, you can have the chair on either side. After that date in has to be on the left. Some sidecar drive outfits were sold until recently by being registered as trikes, which they are not as the legal definition of a trike is that it must have 3 seperate tracks, not 2 as an outfit would have. This is a very grey area of legality and there was much concern in the COC that come MOT time these trike registered outfits would not be passed.
Incidentally, the russians only made sidecar bodies with the 'door' fitted for right hand side. If you have a left hand chair Russian outfit between 1980 and the later Uralmoto bikes, the chair body is fitted to the chair chassis with the door opening on the wrong side - ie facing the engine! When Nevals adapted the sidecar chassis for left they simply chopped the chair chassis, flipped it over the other side and rewelded it .. you can see the welds.
Also, on the Dnepr chair you access the boot through the back of the seat but a Ural chair has a proper opening boot lid .. handy for putting your stove in to cook breakfast!! Also the Russian army sidecars can carry not only a machine gun but also an anti tank rocket!!!!..... I'll get my anorak
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I had a Ural for 6 months in 2000. It was complete ****. Everything was made of cheese. The gearbox went with less than 10000 km on the clock, plus it mostly only ran on one cylinder. I took it back and threatened to put it through the shop window until they gave me a big chunk of my money back >:(
The main thing with Urals seems to be what happens after the factory. If you can find one with Japanese carbs that the likes of David Angel (F2) or Mick Cross (MPC) set up (read rebuilt) on day one go for it. If it hasn't had the western rebuild by an expert in the things, I'd stay clear unless you are paying the sort or basket case price such a thing deserves.
If it's registered as a trike to get the right hand chair keep well clear. You won't get an MOT and you probably can't get real insurance. If you really want a 3x2 the only legal way is to buy a Pre-1981 bike. I've seen some of these that look a bit iffy as they've had new engines and frames (!!), but at least that way the worst that can really happen is that they'll withdraw the numberplate and give you a Q. If it's had an MOT and passed as a pre-81, DVLA will neither care nor want to admit any mistake in letting major parts be replaced, a copper or loss adjuster won't have a clue.
The reverse gear was really useful and fun, as were the interchangeable wheels.
A brilliant design that simply needs making correctly. :-\
Andy
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Hmmm. I don't know what to think, now. I wonder if there are many other people with similar experiences to Andy or if he just happened to get a peculiarly sh!t one. Also, I need to look into parts prices and availability.
Bruce, if you could get me some details on that Ural or get me a contact for the bloke who's selling it I'd be grateful.
My email is pigafetta1@btopenworld.com if you need it.
Thanks,
Dave B
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OK Dave I will try and get his phone number etc and pass it on to you as I say I have no idea what the outfit is like
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I had a Ural for 6 months in 2000. It was complete ****. Everything was made of cheese. The gearbox went with less than 10000 km on the clock, plus it mostly only ran on one cylinder. I took it back and threatened to put it through the shop window until they gave me a big chunk of my money back >:(
I have a mate(yes really) with a Ural outfit,it has only done about 8000 miles.A previous owner had the gearbox replaced very early on.The box that is fitted now sometimes sticks in first,leading to a stop on the roadside and much wiggling of the lever and rocking the bike back and forth until normal progress can be resumed.My Mate recently asked Mick from MPC about it,only to get the reply 'It's f***ked and you will never rebuild it yourselves'
Time to get the spanners out then.
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Problem was that when Uralmoto first started importing bikes around 2000, they were very keen to get lots of people selling them. Several dealerships started selling the bikes but knew sod all about them and just sold them straight out of the crate.... very bad move. They do need a lot of work doing on them from the crate if you're going to have a reliable outfit. I know of other people who have found MPC less than helpful shall we say. Talk to dave Angel at F2 motorcycles as he has been selling these bikes for years and really knows what he's taking about.
by the way, the ural gearbox has an adjustment for the throw of the gears if they are not engaging properly. just behind the gear lever shaft thee should be two M8 threaded stubs with locknuts and a slotted end. Instructions on how to adjust are in the handbook.
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Talk to dave Angel at F2 motorcycles as he has been selling these bikes for years and really knows what he's taking about.
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That's they key to it IMHO. Get a 2007 that David Angel has waved his magic spanner over if you can. Ural had a US consultancy firm go in and specify modern bearings, carbs, forks and electrics in about 2005. The 2007 model year (has a disk on the front) has all these tweaks and I'm told is a different bike.
I didn't mean to put you off with my own experience, it was the dealer in Leeds that was IMHO the biggest issue, these are great machines when working. The problem is that if you go into it without the full picture it will be tempting to pick up a 199?-2004 machine for second hand prices on e-bay. If this is rock bottom sub-MZ/Jawa money and you have the time and skill to sort it it might not be a bad idea. If you have £6000 for new I think they are a good idea if you can live with the downside in the performance as well as the good bits (for example 55 mph cruising speed). If it's £1000 and you want to ride it, take care.
There is a 2005 on e-bay now for £950. Seller says nothing about the technical bits except pointing out it has the newer alternator rather than the Russian version which is know as a "Hand Grenade". Caveat Emptor!
F2 have a 2005 with only a few thousand on the clock. This is sorted, but it's over £4000. I can think of alternate ways to get on three wheels for £4000 albiet without the reverse gear, leading links and so forth.
Andy
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I see your point entirely, Andy. I've been having a good nose about on t'internet too. David Angel does seem to be the way to go but to be honest, if I had the cash to afford one that'd been fixed up properly I'd spend it on something else. The whole idea was to pick up a cheap, mechanically sound, low maintenance outfit for fetching my kids around, not another toy/rebuild for me to be endlessly chucking spanners at. I think, although I'd love one to play with, a Ural is not the right tool for the job. If any pop up, I'll certainly have a look at them but I'll keep my options open.
Ta,
Dave B
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by the way, the ural gearbox has an adjustment for the throw of the gears if they are not engaging properly. just behind the gear lever shaft thee should be two M8 threaded stubs with locknuts and a slotted end. Instructions on how to adjust are in the handbook.
We are intending to try that before delving into the oily depths of the gearbox,we shall see what happens.Another problem has been the interuppter disc thingy for the electronic ignition.This is a top hat shaped thing made of two pieces pressed together which comes apart leaving you stranded.After a couple of failed attempts at welding it my mate bought a new one piece one from MPC,problem solved.
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Another problem has been the interuppter disc thingy
Isn't that what's required to fire a machine gun through a propeller? On a Ural I wouldn't be surprised :D
Andy
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Aye DaveB,
Either of these worth a look?
Ebay: 170156925534 or 130159899440
Regards, Bill.
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They're both on my'watching' list. I'll see how the bidding goes :)
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Bruce,
I got your email. Thanks very much for the info. I've got my 'indecisive head' on at the moment so I've not phoned the chap yet. I can't decide whether a Ural the right way to go. :-\
Cheers,
Dave B
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For what it is worth - the MZ250 would appeal to me more than the Jawa, the Ural would is 'sorted' but then a whole different cost game.
But being as I am not looking - who cares.
Thought it interesting (quirky) that they are both in the same sort of area.
R
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Seen this?
260175893861 Needs a bit of work but if the price is right..