Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: Smithy on April 30, 2020, 08:13:57 AM
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Right I'm bored today so time to be maybe a little controversial. I will try to convey the essence of what I've been thinking and hope I don't offend anyone.
I miss cheap, old bikes. I am fed up with motorcycling in the 21st century. Bored of the 'classic' scenes both British and Japanese, bored of brat/scrambler/café racers. bored of adventure bikes, Harleys and modern bikes. Right that's off my chest time to unpick it.
My primary loves for motorcycling are that I can go places and do it cheaply. I've never believed in spending money for spending's sake I don't see the point. Some people I know have a new sofa just because the old one is two years old. If my sofa is still comfortable I will keep it.
I love going places, they don't have to be exotic just lovely to me. I was lucky to be a kid in an era when we could travel freely by bicycle so I went youth hostelling with friends by bike from the age of about 13, no grown ups just us kids set free. I also went by train on hostelling walking/climbing holidays with friends in the Lake District from 15 or so. It was wonderful so when I was old enough to get a motorbike the freedom increased as I was no longer bound by leg power or timetables.
I bought CZs and MZs and old Brit stuff because they were cheap and easy to fix and also cheap to run. I did love my A10 etc but primarily they were tools for transport. I had a mate with a Harley (back in 1974 before everyone with a wannabe complex bought one) and what impressed me most was how it could cover long distances without straining the motor. We started buying old air-cooled BMWs at what was universally known to us as 'a pound a cc' which was cheap.
What have we got now? Bantams costing up to £5000, more exotic bikes costing tens or even hundreds of thousands of pounds. Brit bikes so over-restored they aren't used, Harleys that are more in danger of being polished away than getting wet, modern bikes beginning at 4, 5 or £6000 for a basic starter bike etc. You get my drift.
I was lucky enough to acquire Rufus' GN250 in a swap but that is the exception rather than the rule these days. I genuinely worry about the price of even the most basic of second-hand motorcycles. I know there are many Chinese bikes out there which may be the equivalent of the CZs etc of the 70s but what else is there?
Come on Thumpeteers are you my salvation? Is motorcycling disappearing up its own tailpipe? Am I just missing the point of modern biking and just being an old fart? Are there models out there that don't fetch inflated prices?
Answers on a rusty petrol tank please.
Ian
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Sadly even old MZs are now suffering price inflation, and we're not just talking ISDT and BK350 'exotica', we're talking well over £1k for a TS125!!
I'm keeping my fleet of rattly old strokers as an investment.
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I think there are a number of factors. One is that modern Chinese bikes - especially 125s etc - are so cheap that they're effectively disposable (although I suspect they're not as hard to rebuild as may be thought). Another is that unlike in the good(?) old days people don't have the skills or necessity to do their own maintenance and bikes become harder to fix anyway without electronic equipment.
I'm sure there are bikes around.... https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Chituma-125cc-CTM-125-C-Motorcycle-With-Honda-Engine-Red-Motorbike-Petrol/174265090138?hash=item289302405a:g:u8AAAOSwVhNeqG2p
My Guzzi V50 cost me less than £1,500 and I only spent money on it to make it look better. A lot of bike for the money. Of course the Norton was far more expensive but is a lovely machine.
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Evening Ian.. I suppose it depends on what you mean by “cheap “.... there’s a kwak ER500 on fleabay for a ‘buy it now” price of £995 which I think is reasonable “cheap”, looks in half decent condition. A good weekend scrubbing and cleaning and be a lovely little bike. Probably not the most inspiring bike to ride but then again it is a “ride” ... good topic though, hopefully get a few more thoughts on this one👍
Cheers, Michael
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I think there are still plenty about, but as Michael said depends on how much. I know where there is a GN250 for around £800,used to be one of mine ! If it's still there. A bullet 350 for about £1000 and my cb350 for a bit more
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I'd love a old MZ to do up as a long term project but even a wreck is several hundred quid! ( i remember buying them for a couple of hundred for a good runner!!). We have an old C90 cub at work that we are trying to restore - really clean examples are going for thousands! :o ( we use to buy 'em every winter for £50 and thrash the life out of them........erm....thats probably why the remaining ones are several thousand :-[)
I'm afraid the the cheap runner is a thing of the past. ( I know a few folk who have bought the chinese ones and they've had a lot of problems, even with new ones).
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Yes, I’ve seen two completely separate Chinese 125’s with cast rear wheels that have collapsed/disintegrated. Both looked reasonably new bikes at the time too....Total and utter junk. I personally wouldn’t even pay a tenner for one, let alone a few hundred of my hard earned. I’d rather pay more, even for a scabby jap bike.🤪
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Gentlemen
Once again you have risen to the challenge and made some excellent points which certainly merit further thought whilst I am out walking the dog.
Looking at your comments I think I have been guilty of a little yearning for the past, after all the reason I can't pick up old bikes for a very few hundred quid must be linked to the fact that I no longer earn £20 a week. Also I might have been wearing rose-tinted specs a little as the reason many of my old bikes needed to be easy to mend was that they broke easily.
Some of the bikes you mention like the ER5 are very good candidates, I had one on which I did 40,000 trouble free miles. I suppose I'm being somewhat ungrateful towards my GN250 and CBF500, both of which were cheap, both of which are reliable and both of which wouldn't interest the kind of hipsters and wannabes I don't like.
Thank you Thumpeteers for bringing me back down to earth and getting me back on the right track. I will do less moaning and more planning post-lockdown trips.
Ian
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I agree with you in general Ian. There are still some good cheap 2nd hand bikes around, cb500's, er5's and the like, but nowhere near as many as there used to be. The almost endless supplies of decent used 250's which were available for pips in the 80's and 90's have long since dried up, and though I do like 125's, they are not really attractive to most people. The 'classic' scene also has a lot to answer for.
As you know, I like my MZ's and rode them pretty much exclusively for 20 or so years. However, I'll be damned if I'm going to pay £2000 for a 30 year old MZ 250. For goodness sake, you can get a really nice er6 or something similar for that money. MZ's we're always just cheap, reliable, characterful hacks to me, and indeed to all members of the MZRC back in the day. The crack was to buy the cheapest old nail of an MZ you could find, smother it in Hamerrite to keep the rust at bay, and then proceed to knock up stupidly prodigious mileages. Though it is still a worthy club, all of this has now largely vanished from the MZRC. It's almost the same for Jawa's, except that if you are patient you can land on a 2nd hand modern one for silly money. I paid £1800 for my 3000 mile 3 year old 350 classic last year. Unbelievably, this is less than I've seen old 634 oilmasters advertised for! You quite often see these being advertised at around £2000, and probably in need of an engine rebuild and other serious expenditure before getting a reliable machine. The world has gone mad!
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Don't even start me on the cost of getting hold of a bike and sidecar these days...........
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https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1223101
Still the odd one about.
Ron.
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Well, I sold a very competent NTV for a friend in Jsnusry on Ebay, went for under £500.
But yes, lots of pricey stuff, superdreams for 4 figures, etc.
Then again, I'm currently tempted by a CB200 low miles...but as its headed into 4 figures, I may bow out.
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cheap bikes are still out there, theyre just not the same as the cheap bikes we used to get. cheap bikes now tend to be mid 90'd or early noughtys jap middleweights, after all, if you sell a million cbr600's then eventually the market for them will slump and stay slumped till there arent many left. look at gsx1100's, gsxr slabsides, gs1000's. they were plentyful and thus cheap, people bought them and ragged them into the ground. eventually there werent many left, so the valused creep up and nostalgia makes people want them again. so folks want bantams and th prices shot up, ditto fizzys, lc's, even honda step thrus, all follow the same pattern. so if you want a cheap bike, pick wisely from the selection of available cbr/zzr/fzr/gsxr/ etc and hope you get the one that gets the upturn in the market in 15 years or so.
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Sound advice me thinks.. 👍
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my take on what to buy that will increase in value in coming years, honda grom, sachs madass, in fact anything from sachs, they did a stonking thumper powered by a dr650 engine as well as a lovely roadster with a suzuki 800 vee twin engine. i reccon any of these bought and kept clean will make money in future.
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Love them little Honda groms. Couple of years ago while out for a spin about 40 of the things came in the opposite direction, all with geezers smiling for ear to ear... I remember thinking “I want one of those”
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my take on what to buy that will increase in value in coming years, honda grom, sachs madass, in fact anything from sachs, they did a stonking thumper powered by a dr650 engine as well as a lovely roadster with a suzuki 800 vee twin engine. i reccon any of these bought and kept clean will make money in future.
I've always had a hankering for a Sachs roadster. Very well built I believe, and a great suzi engine. Very rarely see them for sale though...
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There's a Honda RS250 plus a spare electric start one in bits for less than £1,000 in the current issue of Real Classic. Located in Derby if memory serves. It looks quite nice from the photo and could make a decent bike with enough return on the bits to make it nearly free.
PM me for contact details.
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Then again, I'm currently tempted by a CB200
Nice tank on them ;D ::)
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my take on what to buy that will increase in value in coming years, honda grom, sachs madass, in fact anything from sachs, they did a stonking thumper powered by a dr650 engine as well as a lovely roadster with a suzuki 800 vee twin engine. i reccon any of these bought and kept clean will make money in future.
I've always had a hankering for a Sachs roadster. Very well built I believe, and a great suzi engine.
I think that's the same engine as the VX800, the bike I sold to get my XBR. Stonking torque - I'll never forget the test ride, cracking her open in 2nd and waiting for my head to catch up with me!
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cheap bikes are still out there, theyre just not the same as the cheap bikes we used to get. cheap bikes now tend to be mid 90'd or early noughtys jap middleweights, after all, if you sell a million cbr600's then eventually the market for them will slump and stay slumped till there arent many left. look at gsx1100's, gsxr slabsides, gs1000's. they were plentyful and thus cheap, people bought them and ragged them into the ground. eventually there werent many left, so the valused creep up and nostalgia makes people want them again. so folks want bantams and th prices shot up, ditto fizzys, lc's, even honda step thrus, all follow the same pattern. so if you want a cheap bike, pick wisely from the selection of available cbr/zzr/fzr/gsxr/ etc and hope you get the one that gets the upturn in the market in 15 years or so.
Spot on! I've been watching this thread with interest. As a serial cheap bike buyer since the mid 90's it's incredible how at one point you can pick up a real bargain and suddenly without apparently noticing the price then goes through the roof.
I used to be able to get a KH250 or even a 400 in bits in the mid 90's for pennies really-£50 for the 250 and £80 I think for the 400 but look at the price now. The 500 /750 were always more but you could still pick up a bargain at one time. Then the were the aircooled RD's- I got a £400 needing work for about £650 not that long ago-maybe 10 years and the guy even delivered it from Essex to the West Mids.I swapped that for an LC250 which have also become ridiculously overpriced in the last few years and the LC350's are even worse.
I had a reasonable X7 for about £500 about 12 years ago and a 350 powervalve for similar money at the same time.Look at the price of these now!
As has been said cheap bikes are still out there but you do need to hunt them down and be prepared to travel to get them.
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Forgot to say my first RS250 was under £35 -yes under £35 and that was not so long ago.
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Yes Martin you are correct amundo, the jota I bought back in 1991 cost me £1500 a 1979 model with two owners from new, totally original and very low mileage for its year. In excellent condition. I (regrettable) sold it a year later (to fund a new bathroom 😢😢) for £3000. I dread to think what it would be worth now. Probably about 20 mucho grando.....
name withheld to protect the FOOLISH
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Yes Martin you are correct amundo, the jota I bought back in 1991 cost me £1500 a 1979 model with two owners from new, totally original and very low mileage for its year. In excellent condition. I (regrettable) sold it a year later (to fund a new bathroom 😢😢) for £3000. I dread to think what it would be worth now. Probably about 20 mucho grando.....
name withheld to protect the FOOLISH
Yes I always pined for a 3 cylinder Lav Michael. The nearest I got was when selling my 1978 GS Thou in 1980 and someone turned up wanting to swap his Lav. for my GS with me paying a cash adjustment. I had to reluctantly decline as I had just bought a Triumph TR6 (car not the bike) and needed funds quick.I've always regretted not having a Lav and am pretty sure I won't be getting one now.
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I was talking to my mate about this thread and discussing the old bikes we used to own etc. He always worked as a machinist for the Royal Ordnance Factory in Nottingham and at a time when I earned £5,000 a year as an auxiliary nurse he earned £20.000 plus doing permanent night shifts and overtime so our bike buying habits have been very different. However we laughed most about the MZs we bought for £20 or the B31s he bought for less than £100. They were the bikes we both shared experiences on and though over the years he has been very generous in letting me ride his new Harleys, BMWs etc I really think those old clunkers were his favourites. He now has another new Street Glide in the garage but reaches for the keys of his Burgman most.
I suppose the lesson there is that it is the quality of the riding/owning experience that matters and not the price. If the bike you have excites you when you ride it and sits well with your views on spending, owning etc then that's the best bike for you. I might be in danger of growing up.
One other thing we noted was the average age of a VMCC member is 83 so soon there will be a lot of old bikes released onto the market. Who knows might bag myself a bargain then!
Ian
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I suppose the lesson there is that it is the quality of the riding/owning experience that matters and not the price. If the bike you have excites you when you ride it and sits well with your views on spending, owning etc then that's the best bike for you. I might be in danger of growing up.
Ian
Yes I totally agree with Ian... I’ve just had a very similar conversation (via texting) with one of the new members on the TC site. It’s defo about what bike makes you smile when you ride it. Not how much it cost or what it’s worth. The experience is what it should be about. Do I wish I still had my jota? In all honesty. No. Do I was I still had the XBR cafe racer I built.. Yes
Probably be worth a third of the jota and only go half the speed but I used to love opening the old garage door and seeing it there. It made me want to go for a ride every time I went in there....cheers, Michael
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Probably be worth a third of the jota and only go half the speed but I used to love opening the old garage door and seeing it there. It made me want to go for a ride every time I went in there....cheers, Michael
My Jawa's have that effect on me Michael. Every time I open the garage door and see them sitting there, I want to go for a ride............ on my bicycle. ;D ;D ;D
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🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣... brilliant
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;D ;D ;D
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Probably be worth a third of the jota and only go half the speed but I used to love opening the old garage door and seeing it there. It made me want to go for a ride every time I went in there....cheers, Michael
My Jawa's have that effect on me Michael. Every time I open the garage door and see them sitting there, I want to go for a ride............ on my bicycle. ;D ;D ;D
So many possible replies to this Pete that I don't know which one to choose! Let's just say that when my main transport was JAWA/CZ produced I was a lot fitter.
Ian
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;D ;D ;D
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Hey Smithy, they are out there you just have to keep looking.
I remember in my youth I got one of the first 250 four valve Honda Motosport bikes. Cracking bike in the trail style.
With this in mind I looked for another but prices silly.
I did see a CB250RS (on Ebay )over in Holmfirth, not too far from Hudds (where they film Last of the Summer wine)
Put a reserve of £150 on it and GOT IT!
This was admittedly 5 years ago but it was in standard nick, shed find, not even a broken indicator stalk!
It had been rattle can sprayed orange and looked like shit!
I was very busy at the time but a mate who runs a bike garage was down on his luck at the time so I let him have it to fettle.
I got all the standard Blue parts off the net and had them mailed to him. All he had to do was to replace the crappy bits.
The bike looked great but I got it back and put new inners and tyres on, new battery, cleaned the carb and she started ;D
2 into 1 Motad silencer and an MOT
Had a rally up North to go to but my Tenere was in someones garage who had decided to go on holiday and locked it up GRRR.
So I decide to go on the Honda, with everything that I normally put on the Ten. A great ride but whern I got to the meet in the dark I only had candle power fo lights. NOT charging. I spent the night in the pub (obligatory) and set to the next day to take her apart and find out the problem. As any of you that know me I had plenty of 'stuff' to sort myself out. With my multimeter I found a corroded connection on the reg / rectifier, sorted, back to charging. Amazing that with my bike in bits others at the meet were shocked that I could do such a thing!
It has a small gizmo that slots into the ciggy charger and shows charge, a healthy 14V at revs ;D
When I first got it going I took it for a blast up the M62 on a 3 mile uphill stretch and recorded 0ver 70 mph at the top!
She is 34 years old, 34000 miles. They were reportedly about 30BHP and 100KG dry. Goes like a whippet.
Since riding it to a couple of meets, I did one in the Peak District and one at Haggs Bank, the performance had dropped off and she doesnt want to rev out with power. Will be digging it out to have a fettle again since I have time on my hands.
If anyone has any suggestions as to why it seems to 'bog down' after about 50mph I'm all ears. I do have and idea that it could be the advance retard in the clutch casing or dirt again in the carb.
Keep looking Smithy, unfortunately I think that some people on hard times may need to sell bikes / projects in these unfamiliar times.
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Aye SteveD,
Sounds a bit like my Morini 125H, up to 40mph - 45mph and then a brick wall that no amount of throttle feathering, coaxing overcomes. Advance/Retard timing appears to be the problem, using a quality strobe. Even the electronic 'guru' of the Morini Riders Club isn't clear about a resolution! As 1970's Italian 6 volt electrics and EI ignition is involved rather than straight forward points and bob weights, it could prove an expensive and tedious business.
All the best with the fettling. ;)
Good health, Bill
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Yes Bill. Evidently the Honda does have some sort of bob weights for ignition timing but inside the clutch casing so I am going the have a forage and see whats there.
There are not too many of these around now as lots were ragged as courier bikes or stripped for their lovely wheels.
Engines pinched for grass track etc.
So I really do want to keep it as is because when its works properly it goes quite quick and goes round corners on rails😁
Will keep the forum updated on progress. In the meantine if anyone else has any ideas please post.
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Hi All, In answer to Mr Dalby's query : It may seem obvious but have you looked at the air filter - they have been known to fall apart if left to dry out. Other than that I think you will be right to check the advance retard mechanism and dirt in the carb. Cheers Everyone Foxy ;D
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Hi All, In answer to Mr Dalby's query : It may seem obvious but have you looked at the air filter - they have been known to fall apart if left to dry out. Other than that I think you will be right to check the advance retard mechanism and dirt in the carb. Cheers Everyone Foxy ;D
Blimey is that the Foxy I know with the Red CB250? We have met many times. I think last at Cwmdu!
If it is then welcome to the madhouse.
My Honda is in someone elses garage at the moment but I will be getting it out to sort. I do have a new pair of headers but need some silencers, any ideas?
Sods law and I'm starting to get busy as well
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Hi Steve,
I am the Foxy with the shiny blue 250RS and I last saw you at a pub in Llanafan-fawr. I was riding a tatty XR400. Hope you get your little beauty running nice as they are great fun to ride. There are some quite nice megaphones on ebay that might suit? Cheers Foxy