Author Topic: ethanol  (Read 980 times)

hondamichael

  • Guest
ethanol
« on: March 12, 2007, 11:40:44 PM »
didnt wat to put it in the post about global warming
why dont we run engines on ethanol ? its polluting less then normal fuel  , its more efficient then normal fuel ,creates more bhp, engine stays cooler , its renewable (ethanol is basically alcohol) its cheap to produce (in brasil they run all vehicles  with it because its cheaper for them to produce  then fuel )
 found out about it on the search of the 5 bhp on my bike
, in brasil my bike has 25bhp instead of 20 ,and is about 10-15mph faster  ,  so i looked on all sorts of websites to find out whats different ...nothing apart of the ethanol , even the carb setup is the same , what brings me to my major  service today, because it wont idle proper since about 3000 miles it willonly idles at 1500rpm when its realy hot after 30 miles or so ,and after another 20 miles it idles then at 3000rpm , thought of a carb problem but was told they have probably to change the head , they had these problems on several bikes, schims wearing too fast causing all sorts of problems .. have to book it in when they have more time , get it done under warranty , my conclusion is the same setup as with ethanol(engines runs cooler with it , less wear to the engine?)

Steve H

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1850
Re: ethanol
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2007, 07:42:07 AM »
"Practical Performance Car" magazine have run a few articles on this. They have set up a Porsche to run on Ethanol (fuel injected) I havent read the article yet but it gave a healthy increase in torque. I beleive Corrosion is one issue with running Ethanol.
If anyone is interested in the mechanics of four stroke engines then Practical Performance Car has some useful technical articles which are far more indepth than anything Ive seen in Bike Magazines.

GB500nz

  • Guest
Re: ethanol
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2007, 07:56:19 AM »
You need way big jets for ethanol, and the engine needs a lot more to produce the same power. But because ethanol produces some of its own oxygen, you can get more power from a given engine if the jets are big enough. You also need to make sure the cooling is reduced (typically by machining off fins) because alcohol cools as it evaporates and a normally-cooled engine won't get hot enough to get rid of the water that is a byproduct of alcohol burning.

Andy M

  • Posts: 1709
Re: ethanol
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2007, 08:35:49 AM »
The engine set up issues are a factor, but nothing we can't get our heads round.

Like most green wheezes there seems to be a lack of information on the total cycle. Electric has zero emissions at source, but if everyone switches you have to build 20 Atomic power stations. Ethanol requires lots of farm land, which could involve a bit of slash and burn the rain forest and then needs processing which at the minute requires oil. The good part is that once running the crops take back some of the carbon dioxide produced.

IMHO it's a good idea to phase ethanol in, but a rush to switch (lets all bin our petrol cars and buy new ethanol ones from a different (new) factory), will be a mess.

Andy

steveD

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 921
  • XT660Z Tenere
Re: ethanol
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2007, 09:17:46 AM »
........yeah but if they started producing Ethanol in quantity at a decent price Jethro would probably just drink it!


......and all the drunks out there would make it product to steal from our bikes so they put something in to colour or taint it and the price goes up etc etc


.......so then they bring back petrol and all the old gits that kept their old petrol 'burners' say "I told you so!"


??????????
If I'm not working I'll be away on my bike camping!

hondamichael

  • Guest
Re: ethanol
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2007, 10:23:19 AM »
 as for the farming ..and burning down rain forests ....do you know how many 100`s tons of potatoes and sugar beets are left on the fields to rott within the european union , i grew up in germany and in the part where i used to live  they grow potatos and sugarbeets, and since european union startet the farmers leave tons of them on the fields to rott away every year  , because otherwise the prices would drop within the eu (and the uk  belongs to the eu too) and you certainly dont want cheaper food , so they could produce millions of liters of ethanol every year only from the things left to rott on the fields if they plant corn instead
ethanol production results in a net energy gain—producing 67 percent more energy than it takes to grow and process the corn into ethanol!

as for changing engines in vehicles... its not neccesary just use a mix of ethanol and fuel
http://www.ethanolfacts.com/engine.asp
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 10:36:17 AM by hondamichael »

Julian217

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
Re: ethanol
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2007, 11:39:36 AM »
 According to the European comissions own research making ethanol from straw would be the most efficient thing to do in Europe.
 But they say it is currently pointless as its more efficient to make ethanol from sugar cane, and Brazil is already geared up to do this.
If a market is created for ethanol fuel in Europe Brazil will undercut European production on price and send it over here in huge polluting tankers that'll fuel atmospheric green house gas rises.

Why not move to Brazil, you can run your bike on ethanol, drive a huge trailie and  buy a hectare of Amazon rainforest for 50p.

guest27

  • Guest
Re: ethanol
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2007, 12:57:08 PM »
Hi There
Ethanol has about 2/3rds of the energu per Kg as petrol, methanol about half.  Hence to make the smae power - allowing for similar efficiancies you need 30% more (ethanol) and double for methanol.  Both are hydroscopic and absorb water from the air like nobodys business - so reducing the energy per kg even more - though you do get the internal steam effect.  You get about 875 litres per hectare from whole wheat and we would need about 1.65 million litres per month.  Which is doiable but we would need to stop eating so much bread.

R

Andy M

  • Posts: 1709
Re: ethanol
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2007, 02:03:01 PM »
Hi There
Ethanol has about 2/3rds of the energu per Kg as petrol, methanol about half.  Hence to make the smae power - allowing for similar efficiancies you need 30% more (ethanol) and double for methanol.  Both are hydroscopic and absorb water from the air like nobodys business - so reducing the energy per kg even more - though you do get the internal steam effect.  You get about 875 litres per hectare from whole wheat and we would need about 1.65 million litres per month.  Which is doiable but we would need to stop eating so much bread.

R

Anyone looking at bio-engineered crops? More litres per hectare and I bet fewer people will be worried if you don't actually drink the stuff.

(Lights blue touch paper and stands back!)

Andy

hondamichael

  • Guest
Re: ethanol
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2007, 02:43:30 PM »
Ethanol fuel is an alternative to gasoline. It can be combined with gasoline in any concentration up to pure ethanol (E100). Anhydrous ethanol, that is, ethanol with at most 1% water, can be blended with gasoline in varying quantities to reduce consumption of petroleum fuels and in attempts to reduce air pollution. Worldwide automotive ethanol capabilities vary widely and most spark-ignited gasoline style engines will operate well with mixtures of 10% ethanol (E10).

In Brazil, ethanol-powered and flexible-fuel vehicles are manufactured to be capable of operation by burning hydrated ethanol, an azeotrope of ethanol (around 93% v/v) and water (7%). Hydrated ethanol may also be mixed with gasoline in flexible fuel vehicles but a minimum amount of ethanol (granted by legally regulated gasoline type C) is required to avoid problems with the mixture. A few flexible-fuel systems, like Hi-Flex, used by Renault Clio and Fiat Siena, can also run with pure gasoline.

Ethanol is increasingly used as an oxygenate additive for standard gasoline, as a replacement for methyl t-butyl ether (MTBE), the latter chemical being difficult to retrieve from groundwater and soil contamination. At a 10% mixture, ethanol reduces the likelihood of engine knock, by raising the octane rating. The use of 10% ethanol gasoline is mandated in some cities where the possibility of harmful levels of auto emissions are possible, especially during the winter months.[1] Ethanol can be used to power fuel cells, and also as a feed chemical in the transesterification process for biodiesel.

Ethanol can be mass-produced by fermentation of sugar or by hydration of ethylene from petroleum and other sources. Current interest in ethanol lies in production derived from crops (bio-ethanol), and there's discussion about whether it is a sustainable energy resource that may offer environmental and long-term economic advantages over fossil fuels, like gasoline or diesel. It is readily obtained from the starch or sugar in a wide variety of crops. Ethanol fuel production depends on availability of land area, soil, water, and sunlight.

In 2004, around 42 billion liters of ethanol were produced in the world,[2] most of it being for use in cars. Brazil produced around 16.4 billion liters and used 2.7 million hectares of land area for this production (4.5% of the Brazilian land area used for crop production in 2005. [3] Of this, around 12.4 billion liters were produced as fuel for ethanol-powered vehicles in the domestic market.


Steve H

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1850
Re: ethanol
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2007, 07:01:32 PM »
Just read the article on Ethanol in PPC. The increase in torque was down to the engine being able to take more ignition advance, I would  gues this was possible because of E85's higher octane rating.

guest27

  • Guest
Re: ethanol
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2007, 08:24:10 PM »
Ahh forgot on my lil bit.  Ethanol per hectare is (I think ) Theoretical, current yeilds are about 55% of this.  ALso KJ was per KG - doe not allow the the different densities - ethanol is about 15% heavier than petrol - also has a substantially higher viscocity and its latent heat of vapourisation is about 3 times that of petrol - hence its added cooling effect and thus lower efficiancy.  It has potential BUT - and this is a big b UT - the possibility of replacing petrol with ethanol or methanol requires massive amounts of land - which Brazil has.  Mind bio diesel needs more..

Genetic mods to produce more sugar / starch and genetic mods of the yeasts to tolerate higher alcohol (which they have done) will help, as will using waste heat to distill the alcohol.

R

002

  • Posts: 1786
  • Stalwart(TM)
Re: ethanol
« Reply #12 on: March 13, 2007, 10:53:01 PM »
Cyaan Eye 'ave another pyint of Hethanol Pleease ?

With a Nitro chaser for My Drag bike.....Hic !

Oooh ! That reminds me what happened to Sledge Hammer ?
The Top Fuel supercharged Jawa based drag bike.
THE LOUDEST THING I'VE EVER HEARD !

Jethro
Cooey
Martini-Greener GP
Lee Enfield
ELG