Author Topic: Supercharging?  (Read 2516 times)

guest1380

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Supercharging?
« on: October 06, 2011, 06:52:41 PM »
Hi all.

Has anyone tried or has seen details of any supercharged single projects?

I've designed a switchable charger system for a single which may make it onto my Mito project (depending on what lump I end up with). I may get my hands on an old modified XL185 lump in the nearish future in which case this maybe a good engine to trial the system out on, but i'd like to see how anyone else may have attempted it.

Ta muchly for any help offered!

Steve.

SteveC#222

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2011, 10:12:35 PM »
There was an article in MCS&L  a few years ago about a a supercharged Yamaha XTZ(?) 660 project from the early 2000 called I believe the Tramontana. They got mid 70's BHP from it and it went like a rocket. Appartently the big problem with supercharging singles is down to the long dwell between power pulses (?) , very hard to get it right.
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themoudie

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2011, 10:29:35 PM »
Aye Steve,

Welcome. I hope you enjoy your visits.

Try this: Yamaha_Rhino_660_supercharger_kit

Read this thread: THREAD

May I suggest that you might also speak with this man? Russell Savoury turbo-charged a Yamaha 660 motor, which I believe reliably produced 80bhp. There were magazine articles (Performance Bike? , MCSL, et al) and I believe it was sold on Ebay. RS Performance building 500bhp+ Caterham 7's and restoring an ex-fighter airfield and flying WWI aircraft, now appear to be the therapy!! ;D ;D ;D Link: RS Performance

It'll keep you busy. ;) ;)

My regards, Bill.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 10:32:45 PM by themoudie »

guest1380

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2011, 05:29:34 PM »
Thanks Steve & Bill.

I know the problem with turbos and singles is down to the exhaust power pulses being to far apart to wind up the turbine, but a supercharger shouldn't be quite so bad (I hope).

I had come up with a electric driven system that basically matches the compressor speed with the throttle position so if you ride smoothly should give a good even power spread, but it is also switchable to allow for better mpg and traffic manners.

If anyone's interested i'll post my basic diagram once i've had chance to scan it in.

By the way the whole idea behind blowing a small single was to have the power to keep up with some of the bigger engined bikes, but also keep the weight down to keep the disappearing up yer own backside handling.
 

SteveC#222

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2011, 06:15:08 PM »
Not quite what you had in mind, but Peugeot made the Jetforce125 a couple of years ago which was a supercharged 125cc twist n' go - reportedly went well with 250ish performance.  If you can get some info it might give you a few ideas.

Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional!

SteveC#222

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2011, 06:46:44 PM »
I've found that Tramontana article!!....I knew I had it somewhere.

I've scanned the pages as JPEG's so if you PM me your Email address I'll send them to you. They have some useful information.  Looks like the people you need to talk to are RS Performance if they are still in business.

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guest1380

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2011, 06:48:23 PM »
Cheers Steve, I owe you a pint!  ;)  pm on the way.

SteveC#222

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2011, 09:36:21 PM »
You should have an email. ;)
Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional!

JOOLZ

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2011, 10:44:36 AM »
Thanks Steve & Bill.

I know the problem with turbos and singles is down to the exhaust power pulses being to far apart to wind up the turbine, but a supercharger shouldn't be quite so bad (I hope).

I had come up with a electric driven system that basically matches the compressor speed with the throttle position so if you ride smoothly should give a good even power spread, but it is also switchable to allow for better mpg and traffic manners.

If anyone's interested i'll post my basic diagram once i've had chance to scan it in.

By the way the whole idea behind blowing a small single was to have the power to keep up with some of the bigger engined bikes, but also keep the weight down to keep the disappearing up yer own backside handling.
 
Electric superchargers dont work and any you see on ebay etc are a con, It may be sufficiant to get a few ounces of boost for a 125cc engine but the battery and charging system would never keep up so wouldnt supercharge for long, it takes about 6 hp to drive a supercharger of sufficient size to deliver enough air for a 500 cc single to be able to breath ( a 6 hp electric motor would be quite bulky and would run down your battery in about a minute). If you want to supercharge a bike cheaply modify a large smog pump from an American car or for a little more money buy an Asian supercharger from a Japanese micro car they have little 650cc motors that are supercharged. I built a supercharged Kawasaki Z1100 a few years ago and did a lot of work on flow and drive hp figures

johnr

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2011, 04:36:46 PM »
use to be a couple of guys sprinting supercharged singles at houghton, one was a bsa c15 with a shorrocks charger and the other was a weslake 500 with a shorrocks on it. up the hill(quite steep) was only 1/8th of a mile, the c15 was tripping the lights in about 9.5 seconds and the weslake in about 8 seconds, as a guide, my 1170cc suzuki katana with a bit of tuning some whopping carbs and a race pipe running a cut slick tyre at 4psi did a fastest run of 7.97seconds, so these old thumpers werent hanging about, having said that, they had power deliveries like light switches, they were either flat out or off, they had  no tickover.
incidentally, as has been said, the so called electric superchargers on ebay are snake oil. if they worked, then the manufacturers would have been using them rather than messing with complex blowers or turbos. theyre just small electric fans, and offer no boost at all.

guest1380

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2011, 12:32:37 PM »
I've done the maths now for a XR200 engine, with the size of centrifugal compressor and motor I am looking at i'm going to be 6.2 lpm (litres per minute) short at max rpm without upping the motor size and also the battery to unacceptable sizes. The original theory was that with a part-time charger the battery size would not have to be increased too much. Oh well can't have everything!

I'm still looking at clutching the compressor though and I have a number of ways to do this, so i'm not giving up by a long way yet.

Thanks SteveC for the email. Made for very interesting reading. Going by their results i'm going to set a new target of 50bhp out of an XR200 lump providing of course it doesn't shower the garage with metal. I'd be looking at strengthening the engine as much as I can though.

Right so aim is: XR200 powered Mito weighing in at approx 120kg or less and producing 50bhp at the gearbox.   :P

guest295

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2011, 07:23:31 AM »
Err, no, ain't gonna happen. The XR200 is a nice engine but will never cope with 50hp, even briefly. You can get 50 out of several small water-cooled 2-strokes, but there isn't (as far as I know) a small 4-stroke with enough cooling to deal with that sort of power. You could probably design snd build one if you had the equipment, but the coming Moto3 class may produce something interesting.

SteveC#222

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2011, 10:10:29 AM »
GB500nz has a point, it's a big ask for such a small engine, even the 660 used in the Tramontana- which is pretty beefy to start with- was fitted with an uprated conrod  :-\

While I admire your vision and enthusiasm, I think if it 'twere me, from a practical point of view, I'd probably go for something like a moderately tuned XR500/XL600 engine (or similar)if you can get it to fit - easy to tune, bombproof, wet sump - which would give you the same output, better reliability, simplicity and probably weigh no more than a blown 200cc by the time you've added the blower and all associated gubbins.

( I say XR/XL over the XBR/GB simply because the latter have a dry sump engine and you'd need to find somewhere for the oil tank)
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guest1380

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2011, 01:39:15 PM »
Yeah you've got a point guys. I might have to save the compressor for the clean burn two stroke engine i've designed, but that's going to take a lot of time and a lot of trial and error with regards fuel timing.

I think it might be a go the whole hog route and save the pennies for a DR800 lump (which will just fit, i've seen it done).

I miss my old DR800SM and if it wasn't for redundancy in the past i'd still have her. It was a close call between the bike or a roof over my head. If it wasn't for the misses i'd be living in a field with just the bike for company.  :P

By the way GB500nz there is always the KLX250R. I've heard of one that's had nitro fitted on stock piston and con rod, but with welded crank and is (apparently) totally reliable.  :o

If anyone's up for a shopping trip to France sometime next year I might be bringing back an engine.  ;)


guest1380

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Re: Supercharging?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2011, 01:57:40 PM »
The XL lump might still be making it to my garage, so looking out for a diddy traillie frame to make up a supermotard. Does anyone know if there's a cheapish spare frame out there?