Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Project Progress => Topic started by: mthee on January 15, 2019, 12:35:53 PM
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I wanted to put a CB350 tank on my XBR and got one cheap off eBay because one of the balance pipes had come away. Perfect, as they need to be removed and rotated to clear the frame rails. The tank came without a latch for the cap, so I bought a CB200 tank for the latch and to practice shaping the underside with. All went well and in fact, I really prefer the super-slim CB200 tank.
It needs a pet******* bung welding/brazing in, but I can only find 22mm Harley ones, rather than the 16 X 1.5mm used by Honda.
Which is best, design-wise, the male one with the extra step or the female without?
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Good evening Matt, have you thought about a flush fitting fuel cap, that's what I've popped into the "tracker" tank. Looks the bizz. I'll send you some photos later. If you type in "weld in petrol cap" on fleabay I think it's the first pic that comes up .... cheers, Michael
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Got your pics for posting. Nice. The fact that you're a plumber fitting a flush fuel filler made me chuckle! Saw your welds 8) Wish I had your skills! I'm happy with the nice Monza(?) style cap that came with the CB200 tank, ta.
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Evening Matt I use an Electric tig welder....and yes , the FLUSH fitting filler thing went right over my head.🤣🤣 We did do a fair bit of oxy/acetylene brazing during my apprenticeship days, I absolutely loved doing it and got very high marks in my exams for my work but haven't really done any since. Don't know why really, I need to buy a small oxy kit me thinks. Try and get my hand back in to it. Big bro (propeller) used to have a CB200 waaay back in the day, I never really liked the fake leather squares down the tank, although I think the shape is lovely. Best of luck with whichever route you decide to take. I look forward to seeing the result👍👍.... cheers, Michael
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Some pics of my somewhat neanderthal reshaping of the undersides using a 40oz ballpein.
XBR tank added for comparison.
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A smear of that there body filler and a licko paint and nobody will be non the wiser Matt 👍
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A couple of other angles. My fave, the CB200 has got rust aplenty, so removing that will be a first for me. Electrolysis followed by oxalic acid and 2T oil. Welding in a new bung first and not having a local Michael, I found there is a local guy who advertises himself as Bob the Welder!
Let's hope we get another roasting spring - great for painting.
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Yes I too prefer the look of the CB200 tank Matt. Just a bit of advice if I may. Make sure the bloke who is going to weld your new filler in is happy doing TIG welding and don't let him do it with a MIG welder. To much heat maaaan, will most likely badly distort the tank. Also if the tank is bad with rust and if he's a decent TIG welder, I'd seriously consider cutting the bottom of the tank out, that way you can get in with some course wet n dry and sand it down inside. Then just get him to weld the underside back on. Probably only cost you an extra £20 to £30. .... keep me posted and best o luck 👍
Cheers, Michael
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Thanks for the inside info. He was recommended by the local sheet metalworks who were too chocca for the next 6 months. He's retired, so hopefully years of experience, but although he offered a derust service (it'll have to be DIY for me, as money's tighter than a Brexit deadline!) he didn't offer your proposal.
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"Tighter than a brexit deadline" I like that one 🤣🤣...... just thought that if he's happy to do actual welding bit you could cut the underside out yourself and rub it down then pass it on to him to do the "technical " bit.... the welding 😁😁👍
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Me cut the bottom out?! Ooh, err, what tool for that then? :-\
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Just use a small grinder with a thin metal cutting disc in it, you may possibly need to revert to a dremel up inside the tunnel at the front of the tank looking at the photo you posted. Please make sure he's happy welding it all back together before you do any cutting 😁😁👍..... personally that's the route I'd take if there's a lot of rust inside the tank. Peace of mind that way and you're beating the underside to fit anyway. ....
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Testicular fortitude (or lack of) notwithstanding, I'll probably go cheap and run an inline filter after electrolysis and acid. If I like the tank on the bike and decide it's a keeper, I'll probably keep an eye out for a cleaner one. Thanks for the tip though and may I just say, damn, you really produced some good looking welds on your flush filler. Rispeck, innit!!! ;D
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Well, looky here;
https://www.instructables.com/id/Cafe-Racer-Gas-Tank/
A detailed description of mounting an old CB tank on a 650 Nighthawk. Plus the guy has put in a flush filler cap!
I think I'll try copying his rear mounting plate.
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Interesting thread this - I'd often thought about what alternative tanks could be made to fit the xbr. The company Caferacerseats supplies a range of universal fit tanks (and many other parts) some of which might work with the xbr - reasonably priced too as they include fuel tap and cap. Would have been interesting to see a side view of them sitting on something like a CB500 to get an ideal of scale and how they look.
https://caferacerseats.co.uk/product-category/tank-covers/
Regards
Tony
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And at those attractive prices, one is even painted for you!
Here are some measurements I took from my XBR tank for reference;
Max length 640
Centre (front mounting) cups to centre rear mount hole 527
Centre cups to centre pet******* 230
Centre cups to rear of toptube where frame rails attach (and width goes from 65 to 75) 200
Centre cups to start of max width of 160 (outside seat rails) 360
Width of tunnel between cups 110
Diameter of top tube 65mm (CB200 cups had to be trimmed to gain clearance)
Height from cup centres to top of toptube 75
Max width 310
Worth reposting here what was included incidentally to my posted appeal for a CB250RS brake plate;
Joolz has a CX500 tank fitted and says it's an easy mod, needing only longer rubber mounts up front, or washers under the originals and a trim of the rear mounting tab. However, you then have to match the seat to the new tank face and you'll have lost the side panel mount that the XBR tank provides.
Here's a CB400N tank being used (same as 250N) but the builder doesn't describe how he did it, other than to say it needed a "soft" frame modification, which might mean no welding.
http://www.bikebound.com/2018/08/07/honda-xbr500-cafe-racer/
GN250 tank here;
http://rhcc.pl/ajs-trial-replica/
I nearly got my hands on a CB650 tank which looked like it might have nearly gone straight on. The CB750/900 tank is longer.
The SR500 tank also looked good, apart from tunnel widening and the gap left where the oil filler cap on the SR frame top tube is located by the headstock.
The GS400/425 was also good looking on measurements supplied by eBay sellers, having a 160mm tunnel to the rear of the tank which will clear the frame rails, but the pet******* might need repositioning and seat and side panel considerations remain. Also front mounting posts on the XBR will need cutting right down and the cups on the GS tank trimming to allow the tank to clear the XBR top tube.
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good site that tony
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Thanks for that - plenty of information. I've seen one fitted with a Honda 400/4 tank (I think) and it looked well. Not sure what modifications were needed though and they probably aren't cheap now with the current demand for 400/4 parts.
Regards
Tony
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Here's one with that tank on;
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Here's one with that tank on;
Nice!
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Here you go, Martin, a NOS tank on eBay. It's in Australia, so postage might be a bit high... :o
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/17050-377-670HX-NOS-GENUINE-HONDA-CB400F-400-FOUR-RED-FUEL-TANK/264133056060?epid=5022752639&hash=item3d7f8e963c:g:X8sAAOSwoIJbdxvy&redirect=mobile
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Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha..... no please stop it, my broken ribs still hurt when I laugh to much. Ha ha ha ha🤣🤣🤣🤣. £1100 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Won't be showing you any of my welds on the tank front mounts, then ;D
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Well it does say he may be open to offers and postage varies. I've owned 3 400/4s over the years (2 blue and one in red). Sold the last one about 5 years ago. Got it cheap as it had been standing and it turned out the rings had stuck in the bore over time. Cost an arm and a leg to have the 4 pots rebored with piston kits etc and gaskets to add insult to injury. Then the carbs got all messed up with ethanol so they needed stripping and rubbers replaced,then it need new coils and the list went on and on. Did eventually get it running well but then it needed a cosmetic resto but i'd had enough by then!
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A few different tanks cb400 and xj650, the AJS Cadwell tank also fits
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Love that CB400 tank!
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Very useful seeing how some of these tanks look. Interesting to hear about the Cadwell tank too Joolz. Worth keeping an eye out for a used one. I think they hold around 11 litres. Link to the AJS Cadwell parts prices :-
https://www.ajs-shop.co.uk/acatalog/CADWELL-Parts---Accessories.html
Regards
Tony
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Received the pet******* from eBay lathe engineer, made up for £18 :) Took it to the local shop, where matey TIG welded it on no probs, but really struggled with filling the old pet******* holes because he said the tank was Swiss cheese. He built up a big weld using his MIG and said although I'd need to use a liner, to test it first and return it if it leaked so he could go over it again. Got it home and it leaked from the sides of the weld, maybe at it's base :'(
Does this mean the tank metal is too porous/rusty? Lost cause? Michael?
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Evening Matt. Yes quite possibly. The tank that Tim (timbo) very kindly let me have for just the postage costs to practice on turned out to be like that. Wafer thin and an absolute nightmare to tig weld anything to it. Like I say Tim had told me that it was pretty much knackered but was worse than I'd expected. So in answer to your question, yes if the metal is wafer thin then yes most likely become porous. 😢😢. Best o luck with it. Cheers, Michael
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Would POR15 liner be enough to sort it?
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Not to sure to be honest Matt, never used it mate. Got to be worth a go tho Shirley. Plus possibly a thin smear externally of something like araldite. Not to sure how araldite copes with the modern fuels? (Anybody out there have some info on this??). Still gotta be worth a shot trying it out, then pop some fuel in it for a few days before it goes off for spraying. Assuming it works obviously 😁😁🤘Best o luck and keep me posted .... cheers, Michael
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Thanks, Michael. Always good to get your ideas. Off to the sprayers? It's gonna be home brew 2k in a can for me! ::)
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Well Matt...... when I said "off to the sprayers" what I actually meant was when you take it into a different part of your workshop to spray it😁😁.... judging by john's post on your other thread looks like you might have Sussed out the answer with the por 15. Never used it but certainly sounds like the way to go. Keep me posted 👍.... cheers,Michael
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With the CB200 tank now firmly mounted (no, not like that, vicar! I like it a lot, but not that much!) I've found that the resulting triangle is too big to fill ( :o) What I mean is, the smaller tank makes any side panel needed to cover the airbox and battery triangle appear too big. So, the airbox might have to go, leaving me with a K&N question for Moto63. I understand you ran one successfully on an original XBR carb? Was it this one and is there any rejetting/ needle lifting required?
https://www.knfilters.com/mobile/mProduct.aspx?prod=RC-2310
Thanks, Michael
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Morning Matt... no I didn't run my cafe racer on the original carb, I bought a mikuni standard slide type (not a CV) then popped a conical K&N filter on that. I can/will dig out the relative paperwork to refresh my memory on the actual model of carb and let you know. I remember it wasn't as expensive as I thought it might be. I'm not saying it was chirpy, chirpy CHEAP, CHEAP (song in there somewhere) but defo not bank braking figures.... I am a Yorkshire man after all 😁😁👍.... I think you'll struggle to run it properly with the standard carb with no air box. Any pics yet of bike with CB tank fitted, looking forward to seeing them 👍.. cheers, Michael
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Here's pics of tank in place:
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And side panel v tank size problem:
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CB200 tank
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Might have found an answer to the K&N cone filter carb tuning?
http://www.thumperclub.com/smf/index.php?topic=3345.msg20815#msg20815
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Hi Matt - not sure if I am interpreting what you are saying correctly but looking at the photograph with the xbr side panel in place, you might find it looks ok if / when the tank and panels are painted in the same colour. If you can open that photo using the one of the graphics packages on your computer (Paint?) you might be able to get an idea how it would look and possibly add a seat. Also, you might be able to reduce the look of the "triangle" on the side panel by increasing the width of the angled black section (which Honda has effectively already done). Not sure if any of this makes sense! Lol
As others have suggested it can be quite tricky setting up a carb without the airbox
Regards
Tony
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Thanks, Tony. Side panels are sold, so it looks like I'll be trawling Google for inspiration. I want something different anyway and it will come. Metal covers for the airbox housing and an oval plate for the battery area, or vice versa, maybe. Having bought a jet kit for a CB900 I ran with Ram Air foam pod filters years ago, I had thought CV's were tunable with just patience and a handful of jets ::) With the XBR needing only one carb sorting and the success story in the link above, I was sorely tempted!
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Looking good Matt, all that bike needs now (apart from the tank painting 🤣👍) is those side panels ditching and a lovely CARB throwing on there for everyone to look on at in absolute envy 😉🤘. That's when you'll get all n sundry asking you how it runs with the "original " carb with just a pod filter bolted on. At which point you can stroke your chin and suck thro your teeth and say..."yeah runs just fine" 😁👍
Cheers, Michael
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I reckon if I rub my carb and wish hard enough, a genie from Yorkshire might appear and turn it ino a Mikuni flat slide for me! :P 8) ;D
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Well Shirley that all depends on those magic words....." open sez mee"or was it "oh genie of the lamp" ( carb). 😉
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"Hey momma, look at me, I'm on my way to the promised land!"
Or should that be;
"Hey Moto63, I'm on my way to the promised land!"
I never thought I'd get to come this far. Thanks, Michael, you're a gem!
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Absolutely no problem Matt, I've dug out the carb and will defo get round to getting it boxed up and posted off to you at some point this week. Hopefully Tuesday, so come Friday you shud be roartin off up the road 😁🤘...
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I'm very grateful indeed. Please don't rush, I've a seatpan, foam and cover still to do. Can't thank you enough. ;D ;D ;D
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Evening Matt, you clearly must've been rubbing on that carb and muttering the right words "alhakazam oh genie of the carb" as I've now got it boxed and defo will have time to nip by the post orifice tomorrow at some point. A tad behind schedule I know but hey the carb genie just can't be rushed 🤣🤣👍🤘.... cheers, Michael
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You really are a real genie! 8) I can't begin to thank you enough, Mr. Genie, for making my wish come true! ;D Seriously, though, Michael, I really am proper excited and certainly more than I was at Christmas! Let's hope the good karma your generating comes back to you doubled, at least. Matt.
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Absolutely no problem Matt, hope it sorts the job out for you and good to know it's going to a good cause 😁😁🤘👍... I'd rather it gets used than just sitting on a shelf in my garage. Keep me posted of developments. Cheers, Michael
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Ps.... I think you might need to buy a couple of tooth brushes and a couple o tubes of solvol autosol. 😁😁👍
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Bit personal, Michael. :'( Whoever told you my teeth were that bad is fibbing! ;D
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Any advice on cone filter manufacturer? I'm looking at K&N and DNA.
I'll admit to getting sucked in (sorry) by the DNA blurb.
I'm guessing my Motad 2:1 isn't very free-flowing, so does this mean the shorter length (lower surface area) filter will be the best match?
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Arrived in this morning's post, looking the biz! ;D Shall I try it as is, with a squirt of Wynn's, or get on with an internal inspection and clean? Love the shape! 8) Many thanks and favours banked for your good self, Matt.
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Good stuff Matt. Like I say mate, my bike ran totally fine with it as it was, so personally I'd just give it a good external clean with said toothbrush and solvol. Bolt it on and try it first. Hopefully won't need to strip it down. As someone on here has as their strap line "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" wise words I'd say.... best of luck with it. Keep us posted🤞👍.. cheers, Michael
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I thought it was "if it ain't broke, fix it 'till it is". Which is definitely more amusing.
Good luck with the carb matt. It'll be fine.
If you give Mick a tenner for every horsepower gained I reckon Mick should owe you about 50 quid chortle.
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I could use that £50 to fix a short bicycle pump onto the carb body, then I could boast of a Mikuni TM40(?) Flat slide pumper! 8)
Because there's a handy drain plug which allows the main jet to be changed on the bike without dropping the bowl, I had a peek and it's a 230.
Does it need a specific throttle cable? I didn't get that far, coz the missus caught me out and thinks I've paid for it when we're supposed to be saving for Butlins! ::)
I daren't show her Michael's messages, coz then she'll want me to build her a new house!!!! ;D
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Honestly don't know about the specific throttle cable Matt, it's that long since I took it off the bike oh and I have had THAT bang on the heed 😁😁🤘.....
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No worries, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself in all the excitement! ;D
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Morning Matt.. just wondered how you were getting on with the carb??. Did you manage to suss out the throttle cable? Or are you having to rest your arm up after all the hours scrubbing away with the solvol and toothbrush 😉🤘... cheers, Michael
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Well, I must confess, I lost the choke plunger the day before yesterday. It had got stuck in it's bore, I'd applied heat and pulled on the cable, tapped the body - no movement. Repeat - nothing. Repeat and out it flew - hurray! Except Matt no brains was standing outside the garage on the pea shingle, so focussed on dislodging the plunger, he hadn't considered what might happen when it emerged. The plunger shot off the end of the cable and lies somewhere on the drive, but small brass bits are hard to spot on pea shingle and non-magnetic. Anyway, if it's reachable, I'll probably put one of these in it's place;
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F192468273290
Plus, I might need one of these;
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F201506513499
Or there's one at 90 degs.
Should happen tomorrow. Old carb off, Mikuni in place and check for clearance. A quick look made me think I might have to relocate the reg/rect, but it really is all gravy and I'm having the time of my life. I even managed decent welds on the tank mount with my flux core! With a tag line like, "if you slag, you drag" who could resist!!!!
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Got some unexpected time and here's the verdict - reg/rect has to move, but leaves behind a tab and grommet almost directly above where the cable goes in, so it might act as a guide for the outer without the need for a dedicated elbow ;D Cable runs nicely under the CB tank, although I'll need the right length and nipple.
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Choke position for getting a hand in to operate is also good ;D
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I take it from the photos Matt..... you've also "misplaced " the toothbrush and solvol 🤣🤣🤣🤣
Still..... starting to take shape mate, roll on spring 👍👍🤘
Cheers, Michael
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Placing hand on latest copy of MCN....."In the presence of Moto63 and members of Thumper Club, I hereby solemnly swear to apply Autosol by toothbrush to Mikuni TM 41 Pro-Series Flatslide Carburettor, so help me, Joey Dunlop" - that do ya? ;D Got the choke and top adjuster bits coming, so just need the right cable length and to see whether I can avoid having to make one up or not - it'll come down to price, probably.
Anyway, since I'm keeping the battery, I got some 1.5mm steel sheet and had a go at folding up a box for it ::) Got away with the folding, but welding the sides up was a different matter and reminded me of the saying I read a lot on welding sites, "Grinder and paint make me the welder I ain't"! :'(
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If I'd have known I would have sent an old toothbrush down with the carb, got quite a stash in the old workshop 😁😁. If you've not got an ac/dc tig welder Matt you'll probably not weld ya folded ally. You tried "no nails" (joke, joke.... I WAS joking)
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I wish! Mine goes down to 30A, so I had a go at stitch welding to try to make the best of it, but, let's just say, I'm glad the welds will be hidden.
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Spotted this video of an XR600 tracker and am thinking about using the same TEC silencer, as it would mean I can shorten the footrest hangers;
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F272899074694
Can I get opinions on noise levels and whether this unstamped silencer is likely to pass an MoT? The bike can be heard towards the end of the video.
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Evening Matt. Personally I think it all depends on the mot tester who you deal with. The guy I use is pretty "olds cool" so when I used to take the cafe racer in (which was much louder than the dommi in the video) he used to give me an advisory for the exhaust. If they're the ones you're fancying I'd go for them. Then again that's easy for me to say as I personally would be pretty confident that my tester would pass it come MOT time 😉🤘
Name withheld to protect the innocent 😉
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Maybe I'll put one on and delay trimming the footrest hanger until after the MoT, just in case the Motad needs to go back on.
Best to just put it on for the MoT and hope it passes, or pop in for a chat first?
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Matt... live life on the edge, in the danger zone!!...... just buy em, bolt em, wake the neighbours on an Sunday morning with them and then go ride the hell out of it. 🤘🤘
Should it fail the mot because of the cans you can always pop the motad back on like you say then hey ho instant pass 👍
Cheers, Michael
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Ha, ha! ;D Or should I say, "Yee Ha!"? It's worth the gamble to shorten them thar pesky hangers...
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Woh... there cowboy, slow down. Them thar pesky hangers are worth a bob or two. Pop em on fleabay get cashed up then whittle ya self some new ones outta some 10mm ally plate. Do your own design to suit the new fancy shmancy end cans that will by that time be residing on your steed. 🐴😉... if you cast your eyes back to my tracker pics I think there's a couple of pics with the hangers I whittled up outta 10mm plate....
or you could just simply get out the big hacksaw and launch half the original hangers 😁👍🤘
Either way keep us posted...really looking forward to seeing the completed bike, cheers, Michael
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;D Time, tool and skill set-wise, it'll be Harry Hacksaw. Besides, I've seen a couple of pics where the cut down hangers look really good. At the rate I'm going, it'll be June before I'll be finished and that's having even shelved plans for the spoked wheels, forks, speedo and light! ::)
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Evening Matt... yes mate I went that route on my cafe racer. I cut off the rear footrest hanger on the exhaust side then cut and filed the other side down to a single footrest hanger... looked good when I'd finished
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Spotted this video of an XR600 tracker and am thinking about using the same TEC silencer, as it would mean I can shorten the footrest hangers;
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F272899074694
Can I get opinions on noise levels and whether this unstamped silencer is likely to pass an MoT? The bike can be heard towards the end of the video.
Looks like the same silencer I use, I found it very loud even with the removable baffle fitted, I solved the problem with a longer baffle fitted in place of the removable one that came with it
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Evening Matt... yes mate I went that route on my cafe racer. I cut off the rear footrest hanger on the exhaust side then cut and filed the other side down to a single footrest hanger... looked good when I'd finished
Cheers, Michael and thanks for emailing those photos showing the finished look 8) as ever!
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Looks like the same silencer I use, I found it very loud even with the removable baffle fitted, I solved the problem with a longer baffle fitted in place of the removable one that came with it
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I was so busy listening out for the supercharger whine on your video, that I completely missed the replacement of the peashooter with this silencer ::) Looks good!
Great tip, thanks for sharing. I was planning to add in some packing material, but might combine the longer baffle as well. Did you use packing on yours, Joolz?
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Thanks, the old BSA Goldstar exhaust sounded good but was too restrictive. These slotted baffles work much better than the ones with the holes (this might not be the right diameter but same type), no I didnt bother with packing I found the slotted baffles gave a nice tone and not too noisy. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/EXHAUST-SILENCER-BAFFLE-35mm-CHROME-4-STROKE-DB-KILLER-TRACK-DAY-QUIETEN/281140937828?hash=item41754e4464:g:2eEAAMXQ3kRQ8cJy
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Oh, now you're spoon-feeding me, Joolz! (He said, putting his best bib on ;D) Many thanks!
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Here's where I'm at. Just finished the seat pan fixings and starting to get a shape using the £10 yoga mat. Battery box might get primed today, SWIMBO and bairns' plans permitting!
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Looks like a......CB200 😁😁😉. Taking shape Matt. Keep at it. It'll be worth all the hard work and effort once you're cruising up n down the highways n byways of this green and pleasant land 😁👍
Cheers, Michael
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Can't wait, having massively underestimated the time input! Oh, well, I've learned lots, all of which will no doubt stay in my head until at least Tuesday after next ::) ;D
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Electrical fault sorted, bike went for MoT. The very nice bloke noticed the missing nut on the torque arm and put one on, before passing it - proper decent service! On the way home, my novice efforts to solder a throttle cable end on without purchasing a solder pot (I used a radiator end cap and butane torch) came back to haunt me, as the cable pulled through the end ::) I had to walk alongside the bike in first gear for 3 miles in the rush hour - the walk of shame - that'll teach me :-[
Next day, solderless end went on as the shops were too busy and off I went, only to discover the cheap Chinese petcock was intermittently starving the bike >:( >:(
On the sunny side, the tank looks good and the POR 15 kit has sealed it well thus far. More work is needed on the seat.
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Looking good mate, absolutely transformed the look of it. 👍👍.... cheers, Michael
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By the way how does it run with the carb I sent you?....ok?
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Dang! You've obviously spotted that I didn't get near it with the solvol and toothbrush! Many thanks to you, it looks the biz with the oval DNA filter and after 6 months off the road (after several kicks, ignition off, to restore compression) she fired first kick ;D ;D ;D
Beers at the show? IOU kegs, my friend!
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Electrics...grrr! Ale to ease the pain :'(
But a couple of twinkly lights later...
Electrics...mmm! Ale to mark the moment ;D
Ale.. the one constant in any bike shenanigans!
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Judging by the first photo Matt.....it looks terminal, I'd have given up and broken down in fits of tears at that point....then gone and drunk lots n lots of ALE 😉🍺🍺🍺🍺🍺..
Judging by the second photo all looks well 👍👍
Always said he was the man that Percy Verance bloke 😉
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Thought I'd chuck out a pic of the XBR to get opinions on the steel discs I'm using to cover the battery box. I've mocked one side using a paper cover, complete with penned lines to follow the tank design.
What do you think? Other idea is white discs with black numbers, like a small number board.
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Like that a lot Matt....
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Yeah me too Matt... go for it I say. Live life on the edge dude. 😉😉🤘🤪
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Thanks, gent's - I'm going to try the white plate with black numbers, 66 being my year of birth, so I'll go with that. Lots of little odds and sods + wiring to go. Can't wait to hear her with the new silencer!
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Looking very good :)
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Thanks, Joolz.
I'm thinking of locating 2 warning LEDs in the top of these hollow bolts to go in my bar risers, but the seller doesn't have any torque specs. They're M8 stainless with a 4.2mm hole. I probably need 30-40lbs of torque.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/383199944251
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Numbers (please see below) or stripes (please see previous page)
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Stripes... all the way, I say. 👍👍
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I would use stripes.
Good health, Bill
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I'm currently looking to use a headlight which incorporates a speedo and came across this one on eBay. It being Italian, I doubt my standard (2.5mm?) square end cable will go in. The vendor says he doesn't know what bike it's from, but I thought Bill might ID it?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/143614732305
Bike's got side panels 😁
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Matt, Daytona do a black headlight with a speedo built in. I would imagine it will be a universal cable mount. Don’t think from memory that they are silly money and it’d be a brand spanker... ooo eerr, more tea vicar
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Aye mthee, appears to be typical 1960's lightweight Italian headlamp and speedo. Cannot be specific from which model of machine it might come. Similar to Joe Lucas and Smiths. Aprilia headlight shell and Veglia speedo.
My Dukes all have Smiths speedo that are the universal 2.5mm square drive (need to measure to be sure!).
Headlight shell looks OK, speedo may work, but the needle could waver about like a rag in a Force 10! Mini speedo heads are of a similar size, but again the quality is VERY variable and reflected in the price.
I doubt if this is what you wanted to read, but will measure up later today and post on this thread.
Regards, Bill
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Thanks, Michael, but too new and needs one of their digital Speedos so around £250 all told??
Cheers for the good info, Bill. You're right, I'll pass, as I like a reasonably accurate speedo.
At the moment, it's between these 2;
A 7" that someone had in storage for their Norton;
A wipac which uses a 5 1/2" reflector (so 6" overall?)
Any advice, comments gratefully received
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Sincere apologies mthee, still not managed to measure up cable dimensions etc. eBay going well and the garden needed sorting! Will try tomorrow after the Post Office run.
Bill
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Thanks, Bill. I would be interested for future reference. Even if the cable section is the same, I doubt the speedo drive ratio will match the Japanese standard 2240rpm=60mph?
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Aye mthee,
Square drive in Smiths speedo equivalent speedo is 2.5mm x 2.5mm.
The square end on the cable is 2.3mm x 2.3mm.
There is no drive ratio printed on the face of the instrument. I would need to dig out the helical, phosphor bronze drive gears to get some idea. However, I only have Grimeca 230mm Dual-SLS front drum brakes and the speedo drive for the older Ducati hubs and other Italian manufacturers from the period of the Aprilia headlamp shell and Veglia speedo may be different ratios.
My regards, Bill
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It's the weather for painting, isn't it? Last summer, I painted my tank in rattle can acrylic, cos I'm having a go at as much as I can and money's tight. I sprayed white over black for the pinstripes and then clear.
This year, when I decided on side panels, cut from aluminium, I thought it would be simple to colour match the tank using the same paint from the same manufacturer. No stripes required so I left out the black base coat.
The white of the side panels came out a pure white and showed up the tank white to be a creamy white.
Is this because I don't have black under the white on the panels? Is white difficult to match?
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Aye mthee, white isn't always white and maybe your clear coat has yellowed due to exposure to sunlight, ozone and life in general. Hence the "creamy white" rather than 'Persil' white or Lilliwhite. The black under the white may actually make it a grey white and the clear has yellowed, a wee bit.
Apologies for being a 'wet blanket', but it's a black art, this paint matching lark and even the professionals have problems.
Good health, Bill
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Thanks, Bill.
I've stripped off the bright white paint on the panels, as I quite like the "accidental" creamy white on the tank, so that's a keeper. I'll reapply the black and put the panels on to see how they look, just black. My worry is, that, with a black seat and frame tubes, it will all splodge into one big, black shape. Should that happen, I'll go over the panels with white and clear and get the creamy effect, if not straight away, then in a year, or so 🤣
Here's a charismatic professional, showing us how it's done with proper paint and equipment on a GB500 tank, I think. Like a true pro, he makes it look really easy 😀 You get a brief glimpse of the cafe-racer at the very end.
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Finished bike looks cool in the closing shots of the vid eh... 👍
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Had the forks apart today and was very lucky with a rounded socket head on one of the piston retention bolts which shifted when I used a torx bit in it.
Holding the uncompressed fork in the vice, I put a cloth over the cap, but when I undid it, there was no pressure at all. I even read the manual which warns the cap is under spring pressure and to wear safety glasses.
My spring measured 435mm, against the service limit of 428mm, but no measurement was given on the spacer - mine is 100mm.
Maybe it's a misprint in the manual. The last time I put new springs in my Vx800, it was a job to wrestle the cap back on against the spring and I seem to remember my GS500being the same.
Anyone got a spacer measurement?
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Bear with me Matt and I’ll strip one of my spare legs down and measure it for you.. may take a couple of days tho until I can get in to the old workshop
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Very much appreciated, Michael 👍
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Nice video (apart from the irritating sound track). I used a similar technique for lining my Norton tank although in reverse to his method as I was using coachlining paint (one-shot) applied with a brush.
Masked:
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/masked%20lines%203.jpg)
And finished:
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Norton/images/finished03.jpg)
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Very nicely done!
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Evening Matt, just been in the ol workshop and taken top nut off one of my spare legs. (Oo eerrr vicar, it’s now pretty sore🤪) not a great deal of tension behind it and the spacer is like yours exactly 100mm top off with a 2 to 3mm thick washer, then the nut. Hope this helps 🤞
Cheers, Michael
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Nice video (apart from the irritating sound track). I used a similar technique for lining my Norton tank although in reverse to his method as I was using coachlining paint (one-shot) applied with a brush
Amazing job 👍. I lack the patience for paintwork. I know what's required, but every time I rush it with predictable results. :(
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Evening Matt, just been in the ol workshop and taken top nut off one of my spare legs. (Oo eerrr vicar, it’s now pretty sore🤪) not a great deal of tension behind it and the spacer is like yours exactly 100mm top off with a 2 to 3mm thick washer, then the nut. Hope this helps 🤞
Cheers, Michael
Thanks for removing one of your nuts to answer my question - above and beyond the TC call of duty, I'd say 🤣
Looks like I'm on the original setup, so no worries. That safety warning in the manual seems a bit OTT.
Anyway, I'll be shortening the tubes internally by adding a 35mm spacer on the piston to hold the tube that far down the stroke (vicar spits tea out again!) Ordinarily, I'm supposed to then cut 35mm off the more open end of the spring, but I might first try cutting just 25mm off to achieve that extra bit of stiffness (another cup, vicar?) and cut the preload spacer instead, as I'm a lilly lightweight at 145lbs. Also, not cutting the spring means it can all be played around with/returned to normality 🤣 more easily.
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I've got wear on one tube which has 3 small pits in the surface passing the seal. I've sanded with 1200 grit and can't feel any lip. Is this sufficient? Need araldite? Please swipe first pic to see pitting. Tissue used for contrast only! Ok, so maybe I did get a bit upset😥
Also, there's a wear area on the end of the same tube which I guess is older than the other, unmarked one. Is this acceptable? I'm not experienced enough to know.
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Forks reassembled today, using a new- to- me method for seating the bush and seal. It worked so well, I thought I'd link to the video. Basically, you wrap enough electrical tape around the tube to then use it as a slide hammer to tap home the bush and seal with no possibility of damage to either.
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I seem to recall the last time I did my XBR fork seals I found a short length of scaffold tube was just the right size i/d and o/d to seat the seal perfectly.
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Neat little trick that one, certainly seems to work well enough too and let’s face it, it’s on a you toob video so it must work..RIGHT?? 😉.... although I do like Steve’s very manly💪 Scaffold tube idea😉
Thanks for posting/sharing that one Matt 👍
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He definitely just called me a pansy, didn't he?! I'm off to get me some scaffold pole made in Texas!!!😁
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Slightly less "manly" (whatever that means) although kinder on the seals might be PVC drain tubing.....
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I use the Ian method of PVC waste pipe that is slotted lengthwise to allow for expansion if required around the stanchion and a nylon headed hammer or rubber mallet to do the driving, if necessary. Make sure that the seals are well lubed before easing into place.
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+1 for PVC plumbing pipe...
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+1 for PVC plumbing pipe...
Did I just hear pvc PLUMBING pipe mentioned..... music to my ears 😁😉👍
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Thought I'd post a progress pic at this crucial stage, where I've finished everything bar the rewire, which means it'll be up for sale on fleabay soon as an unfinished project 🙄
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Looks the bizz Matt, top job. Roll on spring/summer so you can get out on it eh 👍👍
Cheers, Michael
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Thanks, can't wait! Let's hope that new silencer sounds as good as it looks 🤞 JOOLZ had one on his XBR for a while, so it must be pretty good, eh?
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I’m looking forward to some more photos from different angles outside in the daylight/sunshine. Still love the look of the CB200 tank, great choice, and those cool little indicators.....brilliant 👍
Well worth all the hard work and time spent in the garage I trust?
Cheers, Michael
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Kept me sane during the pandemic, so I count myself lucky, even if I did spend ages using an adapted pillar drill to mill 2 lots of indicator housings, both of which got binned coz they looked pants on the front of the bike.
Those replacements, I simply cut from 'h' section aluminium! Funny what you can convince yourself is going to look good 🤪 I also made an elaborate headlight mount that I'd not seen on any other bike which was never quite right once in place.
If the pipe sounds good, I thought I'd do a YouTube walk around and startup video. Might catch on, then we'd get to see other member's bikes in glorious technicolour 👍 I'll bet there are some real gems 😛 Thanks for all your support and advice btw, it really was close to being another abandoned project when your encouragement kept it going.
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Looking good Matt. Have you something in mind to replace it?
Regards
Tony
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Only joking about not managing the rewire, but I will have to get to grips with the diagram again and I'm using CBF125 switches.
But, if I were to replace/add to it, I'd love an older Guzzi - T3 or G5 😎 or even a Convert.
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Looks very impressive Matt- making all your hard work worthwhile.
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nice job sir
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Much appreciated. I probably wouldn't have touched the bike, had it not had the subframe cut by the previous owner. I was happy enough, until Timbo asked what was up with the banana seat that had replaced the original. I couldn't look at it again without seeing a banana-shaped seat. So, I cut it flat and was ok with it, until I clocked my reflection in a shop window and realised that I'd made the tank look humongous. I was originally just going to put a CX tank on, like JOOLZ, but then I saw a custom CB350 and liked the tank, so I got a cheap one off eBay. To get it to fit, I found that I needed to reshape (bash) the tunnel and bought the cheapest tank off eBay to practice on, which turned out to be the CB200 tank. With that sheer fluke and Michael's help, it all took off from there.
Unfortunately, the tank only holds 10L, but if I haven't managed to shag the handling, I'll probably try to make it go a bit quicker, especially as my motor drinks quite a lot of oil and needs looking at anyway.
On which note, Tommy, I see you have an XBR650 - how does it compare to stock - worth the upgrade? Any info greatly appreciated!😛
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hi mthee yes its made a big difference that nx 650 motor has 660 hi compression je piston and a cam in it so its a nice torquey motor and i have a 40mm mukuni carb on it ,its apart for power coating now (getting over some injuries before i can get back to it) it also has 17" fmx650 wheels early fireblade forks and a 400 super four swinging arm it handles really nice i want to keep the bike looking as standard as possible but xbr clocks look daft on the fireblade top yoke ,so bit of head scratching to be done there its all the fun of a project bike ;D tommy
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when you put a nx650 motor in a xbr you have a few problems with wiring and the final drive ,but i used a nx 650 loom and the fmx 650 rear wheel runs a 520 sprocket which is the same as the nx ,the xbr has a 525 but other than that its a handy swap over tommy
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Thanks for the detailed reply, Tommy. Your special sounds the biz! Are those engines hard to come by? I haven't seen any, or the easier XL600 barrel and piston to swap. It's one for the future, I hope, once I see whether she's a keeper now that I've got her looking ok. Let's hope she is a keeper, as I've probably devalued her with all the changes 🙄 Matt
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There is somewhere on the internet an article by the late 'Dr' Rod Gilbert on fitting the NX650 Domi engine to the XBR. From memory he got around the gearing/finaldrive problem by using the XBR clutch basket and primary drive in the NX- apparently a straight swap. I'll see if I can dig it out if you're interested.
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I think it was the late "Dr" Rod Gibson who used to do some satellite TV progs and edited Classic Mechanics mag after Bob Berry IIRC. I may have a copy somewhere.
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Very interested, thanks for any info 👍
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I think it was the late "Dr" Rod Gibson who used to do some satellite TV progs and edited Classic Mechanics mag after Bob Berry IIRC. I may have a copy somewhere.
Quite right - my slip up! (nearly got it right) :P :-[
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I think it was the late "Dr" Rod Gibson who used to do some satellite TV progs and edited Classic Mechanics mag after Bob Berry IIRC. I may have a copy somewhere.
Quite right - my slip up! (nearly got it right) :P :-[
Senior moment. I have them all the time!
Matt I'll have a look through my XBR archives.
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mthee if you do come across a xl600 barrel make sure its stamped with 591cc on it theres another one thats stamped 589cc thats no use to put on a xbr as its a different stroke tommy
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that late great rod gibsons article about the xbr /nx was in classic mechanics magazine sept 2001
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mthee if you do come across a xl600 barrel make sure its stamped with 591cc on it theres another one thats stamped 589cc thats no use to put on a xbr as its a different stroke tommy
Noted with thanks. TBH, of the 2 approaches to gaining extra go, I think this is the one I would be able to afford.
In general, for this project bike malarkey to be really enjoyable, I think one needs an additional bike so as not to miss out on riding. Maybe I'll approach swimbo with this winning argument - lockdown laughs have been few and far between 😁
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Matt-I've found a copy but not sure it's complete. I think I also have the article on an XBR related computer disc . I believe I have an email address for you in my contacts list so I may be able to scan to you. PM me just to be sure. Martin
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Received with thanks, Martin 👍😎
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With the loom apart and simplified, I'm wondering how shot or not the 34 year old wiring is likely to be? Should I invest in new cable (and connectors?) or reuse what's there? Thanks.
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Well, I snipped a "branch" of the original ground wire off to reuse at a different position. Upon stripping the end prior to crimping on a connector, I found the answer to my own question - check first. The pic shows a comparison with a good wire off the same loom. The copper was this black all the way along 200mm which increased resistanceby 40%. 🤪
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OH! mthee that looks nicely toasted. Similar in appearance to some original Italian wiring I am familiar with and solder will not flow on it. Time for a visit to VWP and to get some proper cable and solderable Japanese bullet connectors to make a proper job. ;)
Rain has arrived with us this morning, after a cracking but cool day yesterday. Workshop time, rewiring the wee Moto Morini 125H.
Good health, Bill
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I'm sure we've all heard about the infamous Italian wiring, so rather you than me!? Luckily, I am on Honda which has retained colour coding from the XBR to the CBR125 controls I'm using. So, even though I'm moving components (everything except battery and CDI unit) and simplifying (no rear light bulb check, led lights on with ignition, off when cranking) it should be all straightforward. I'd even go so far as to say, if I can't do this, I need tasering!😁🤪
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mthee if you do come across a xl600 barrel make sure its stamped with 591cc on it theres another one thats stamped 589cc thats no use to put on a xbr as its a different stroke tommy
I'd be grateful for comments on the state of this cylinder and piston from those with a good eye for such;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-XL600LM-RM-PD04-Cylinder-With-Piston-Etc-/304039014549?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
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Who are "PJ motorcycle engineers"? Ring them up and see what they say directly, rather than through a third party seller. If the seller won't tell you their contact number, smell a longtail.
From image #5 from the left, it would appear that the rings seized in the bore at some time and the "honing" hasn't removed the corrosion. For me it would either be a rebore, new piston, rings and gudgeon pin. Or, new liner and rings, with the liner bored and honed to suit. But then I'm a fusspot! ::)
What is the ring gap between the ring and the piston ring lands. OR. How much verical play between new rings and their respective grooves in the piston?
If that is too large, then you may have possible compression problems. :(
Make sure that if you do purchase these items and fit new rings that you end gap the rings correctly. If left too tight or not done at all you end up with lovely vertical scores in the bore! :( :( :( :(
I'm no saying dinnae go there, just go canny and ask lots of questions and if the seller or his engineers go schtum, walk away.
Check Eastwoods for new Wiseco parts (Eastwood_Racing (http://www.wiseco.co.uk/contact.html)) or Dave Silver (Dave_Silver_Honda_spares (https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/))
Good health, Bill
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Thanks for sorting me out with this, Bill. I'll get onto it and let you know 👍
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If its the same company PJ Motorcycle Engineers did a rebore and piston kits for my RD400 -going back some years now but they used to specialise in 2T rebuilds are near Wolverhampton. Never had any problems with the work they did.
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Aye mthee,
Here's the link to PJ Motorcycle Engineers if you haven't found it already.
Link: PJ_Motorcycle_Engineers_website (https://www.pjme.co.uk/)
Appear to have plenty of experience.
Link: PJME_Cylinder_Re-Boring (https://www.pjme.co.uk/acatalog/Cylinder_Re-Boring.html)
Regards, Bill
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Thanks Martin and Bill.
I asked the seller for any history and he replied promptly;
"Ibrought a 1987 Xl600lmh & a spare xl600lmf bike came with it,the guy told me that he brought it back from France as it was the red engine version(more desirable)
But when I started to look into it I discovered it was a bit of a bitsa bike & because it didn't come with any paperwork i decided to strip it down & keep some parts for my 1987(lmh)& sell the rest to fund renovating the 1987(lmh) bike.
I've stripped both engines & both are more or less in the same good condition really.
Hope this helps some wot?
If there is any other questions I can help you with, please feel free to ask.
Best regards
Adam"
Seems genuine. So do I point out the probable seizure to drive down the offer, or email the engineers with a link to the item for a quote to get it properly sorted with a rebore and Wiseco? Actually, I have no idea if his asking price is good value?
Thanks again, Matt.
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Aye Matt,
When compared with the asking price for eBay Item #384228146195, your prospective lot would appear to be good value. How many other barrels of the type you require have you found?
If you scroll down your proposed purchases page (Item #304039014549) there are new Wiseco piston kits that appear to be of the correct type for a reasonable price, eBay Item #113815834884
I would contact PJME direct, as you suggest and see if they would supply a set of rings to suit, or would they recommend a rebore, with a new piston and rings? Asking them to quote for both and see what you want to do.
Good health, Bill
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Excellent, thank's Bill.
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I can feeeeeel the power coming on from here. 😉 Best of luck with it Matt. Oh and don’t forget to keep us posted 👍
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😂 I haven't even finished the wiring yet - spending the little time I get riding and de-Bonnifying the W650 👍 Plan now is to finish it as is over the winter, have a ride or two and then engine out in the spring, having collected the bare necessities - cylinder, piston, gaskets, etc. With a plurality of bikes, I can really take my time without the worry of missing out on riding👍
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mthee if you do come across a xl600 barrel make sure its stamped with 591cc on it theres another one thats stamped 589cc thats no use to put on a xbr as its a different stroke tommy
I'd be grateful for comments on the state of this cylinder and piston from those with a good eye for such;
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-XL600LM-RM-PD04-Cylinder-With-Piston-Etc-/304039014549?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
Getting confused here! Seller gives the bore at 97mm which would indicate a stroke of 80mm to come out at the 591cc stamped on the barrel. An XR600 barrel?
The XL600LM is the one I want because the stroke is the same as the XBR, but Googling reveals this has a capacity of 589cc
https://www.motorcyclespecs.co.za/model/Honda/honda_xl600lm_84.html
So, 100x75 gives 589cc in which radius is 5cm and radius sq = 25cm
Working it backwards for both 591cc and 589cc;
Capacity÷pi÷stroke=radius sq.
589÷3.142÷7.5=24.995cm
591÷3.142÷7.5=25.080cm
So which stamp is it for the 75 stroke?
Have I confused myself by trying to do maths? Wouldn't be the first time! 🤪🤯
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I eventually found a link to the XL600 model history here;
https://second.wiki/wiki/honda_xl600
After some cross-referencing, I'm fairly certain the XL's with the pd03 engines are all 100x75 and stamped 589cc. Those with the pd04 engines are 97x80 and stamped 591cc.
I couldn't find anything at all about why Honda changed the bore and stroke.
So, the Motorcyclespecs.co.za link I used for the eBay cylinder was incorrect for displacement, bore and stroke and I'm back on the no-rush hunt 😁
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I'm back on the no-rush hunt 😁
Shame.... all that extra power just slipping away into that eBay black hole 😉
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Yeah, slipped from my clutch...or not😁 But the quest continues and power will be mine ,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha!!!! Off for a lie down.
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https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Homda-Xl-600-Piston-/255139861381?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
Every cloud has a silver lining and this one's in the form of a shiny, new Wiseco +1mm piston kit for the XL cylinder when I get it!👍
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Woo ooo.....that looks luverly and shiny. I can feeeel the power coming on. Well done on your find Matt 👍.... cheers, Michael
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More good luck on feebay!
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-XL600RE-PD03-BARREL-1mm-OS-/195018389716?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0
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Morning Matt, just looked at the fleabay ad, says it’s now ended. I’m assuming it’s winging it’s way over from fleabay land into your workshop as I type? Good find, best of luck with it and as usual keep us posted on any developments 🤞👍
Cheers, Michael
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You should still be able to click on the photo for more pics. It looks to be in really good nick and no need for a rebore, as it was already done for a Wossner +1.0
I'll get the wiring finished and ride for a bit to remind myself how she went, as it's been 2 years. Then I can do the swap and look at the head at the same time. Garage time sorted for another good while 😁👍
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2 years 😲 Where the hell did that time go. Almost like we’ve all been living in some kind of parallel universe because of covid lockdowns etc. Anyway best of luck, I can Feeeeeeel the power from here 👍👍😉