Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Bike Problems/Questions => Topic started by: Propellor on October 01, 2018, 10:10:11 AM
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Classic 500 2018
Final drive chain issue
People on here and elsewhere have reported an issue with the o ring style chain fitted to the latest classic 500. The issue manifests itself as pronounced slack portions and links staying in an offset angle. The issue seems to be down to a lack of grease behind the o ring seals, between the pin and bush. Obviously the grease is fundamental to the principle of an o ring style chain.
I traced the basic chain size as 5/8 X 3/8 which in turn translates to 530 in modern parlance. I traced the number of links as 102 via the hitchcock book and also a count up on my own bike.
So far so good.
The problem starts when you look at width dimensions of a typical medium budget x ring chain. The plates are thicker than the Enfield ones and the length of the pin is longer than the Enfield one. So in other words the Enfield version is "light". Whether enfield are using superior material grades I very much doubt!
The problem is clearance between the chain and the inner cases. Difficult to see properly without a strip down, but I think 3mm clearancd exists here. Don't quote me! Anyhow it's tight.
The answer, at this stage for me, seems to be go non o ring, which I'm reluctant to do, or try to find a superior grade x ring chain, which usually have thinner plates. The downside here, assuming I can find one, is cost and also the fact it may not provide for a split link.
Can anyone help with guidance based on first hand experience?
For info here are the dimensions of the enfield o ring chain I measured with a vernier.
Stock chain
Pin length 22mm
Inner plate 1.7mm
Outer plate 1.7mm
Accross outer plates 20.1mm
Roller dia 10.2 mm
Pitch 15.8mm
Sprocket width 9.1mm
Across inner links 9.6mm
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I found a link to a DID X ring chain which says it has the same dimensions as a standard chain: http://www.did-coltd.com/english/products/wear.html#wr002 - look at the pdf for the first item.
Although this is an industrial chain it may be worth contacting DID to see what they say.
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Thanks Ian.
Off the bat it looks down on tensile strength by 30% compared to a typical DID or JT x ring chain. That said, the stock Enfield plates are about 30% thinner than those chains anyhow, so it's probably about on par with what's on there currently!
There's a guy on RE O uk helping out with first hand experience of DID x ring chain although im not sure which model.
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Aye Andrew,
Duke singles and 'O' or 'X' ring chains do not mix well for the same reason as you are finding with the Enfield, a lack of clearance between the gearbox sprocket and the crankcase castings.
Nigel Lacey (Nuclear research engineer and Ducati singles tuning engineer) sells REGINA 'Classic' 428 and 530 chain for road Ducati singles and bevel twins. He also sells a chain made by RK Japan for racing Ducati singles. If you wanted a considered and unbiased opinion then I would value Nigel's. His experience of racing/tuning Ducati singles and there use on short circuit and the IoM circuits is extensive.
LINK: Nigel_Lacey_Contact (http://www.laceyducati.com/ducati-parts/bevel-single-parts-chains-sprockets-c-174_164.html)
LINK: RK-Japan_motorcycle_chains (http://global.rk-japan.co.jp/products/motorcycle-chains/)
Secondly, there is the "The Chain Man", whilst the original owner has sold the business on, I believe that the expertise has also been passed on too. At one time the business was a regular attendee at the Stafford Show, but I am not sure if this is still the case. Again REGINA chains are stocked and an "engineering bias", rather than a "maximum units shifted" attitude prevails! Personal communications are also encouraged, I had discussions with the original owner and he proved knowledgeable and helpful.
LINK: "The_Chain_Man"_Contact (https://www.the-chain-man.co.uk/index.html)
LINK: REGINA_motorcycle_chains (https://www.reginachain.net/business-unit/motorcycle/)
As an aside, ::) you can purchase this stuff, but it may be a wee bit excessive: EK_drag_race_chain (http://www.suzukiperformancespares.co.uk/product/ek-530drz2-drag-race-chain150-link/108/) ;D ;D ;D
Good health and I hope that you find a reliable solution, rather than a slack, death neckless. Enfield need to be taken by the "short and curlies" and hung out to dry, if they will no upgrade these chains. Karma may be okay in the Indian subcontinent, but on the A685 and syncopated chuffing speeds of 50 - 60mph your "knicker elastic" needs to hold up and keep your accoutrement's in place! ;)
My regards, Bill
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Ay up Bill.
Lots of info there to get my teeth into. One thing which is a prime consideration, given the way the drive sprocket is covered by the engine and this is a steady road bike, is provision of a split link. Also cost. A competition chain is not likely to fulfil either preference!! I've come across these brands before and would have no hesitation in buying, the above considerations prevailing.
As you say, this issue is ridiculous in this day and age. All for the sake of applying grease where it is fundamentally required.
The bike will be retired for winter in the next couple of weeks. I may as well remove the outer case to take a more accurate and informed appraisal of the clearance therein. I love the bike for what it is, a thumping 500 single, so I may as well accumulate personal knowledge of its foibles. 😱.
Good health mate 🍻 keep us up to date with your excursions.
Edit: retired for winter just means it won't be ridden. I have things planned for it. 😁
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Perusal of the Regina chains. The ones with pin length and plate thickness consistent with the stock enfield chain don't have seals.
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Perusal of rk chains. Same problem. The ones with seals and split link are wider.
I've looked at DID, JT, Regina, RK and all have the same problem. Wider than the Enfield chain if going with seals and split link.
I'm reaching a conclusion. Ill take off the outer case to assess exact clearance. If there's sufficient clearance to accommodate any of the above sealed chains with split link then great. If not the simple answer is I'm stuck with a "traditional" non sealed type. There's a theoretical possibility of moving the sprockets outward by a couple of millimeters, but that will probably stay theoretical! 😂😂
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Another (potentially expensive!) route may be to thin the sprockets so you could fit a 5/8" x 1/4". Good enough for a Manx Norton!
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Another (potentially expensive!) route may be to thin the sprockets so you could fit a 5/8" x 1/4". Good enough for a Manx Norton!
Makes you think!
The laughable thing about the Enfield situation is that they've turned the o rings into a positive liability instead of an undoubted benefit. Putting seals into a grease free chain is the worst thing you could do because you can't get any oil into it even if you wanted to.
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Yes, that's crazy. I wonder where the chans are from - as you say they're useless.
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"The chans " you say Ian, I do hope that's not some kind of slur on our oriental friends 🤣🤣🤣
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DID make a quality x ring 530 size but thinner, high grade plates. Overall width just a fraction wider than the OE Enfield o ring chain. It'll go in I'm almost certain, but it's a riveted link.
I've still not entirely discounted the possibility of a "normal" width x ring chain going in but, as I say, I'd need to pull the outer cover off for a careful appraisal of the exact clearance.
Then again I might just submit, throw the towel in and go back to using non o ring chain.
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Then again I might just submit, throw the towel in and go back to using non o ring chain.
That would be my approach Andy. I'll bet that a quality split link chain with a simple Loobman type chain oiler would probably last as long as an 'x' ring type on an Enfield anyway.
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Bit more progress. I've used pieces of offcut aluminium to determine the gap between the chain and the inner and outer casings, without a strip down of the outer case. Visually, from above, there seems to be plenty of clearance to the outer casing. A 5mm piece of ally has stacks of clearance so this side doesn't seem to be a problem. Somewhere around 8 to 10mm clearance.
However trying to get the same piece to pass between the chain and the inner case, not a chance. So I try a 3mm piece. That's near to going in but not quite. I try a 2mm piece. This goes in the gap without any resistance. So the minimum gap is about 2.5mm. Pretty tight!
Conclusion. I'm not prepared to put any chain in there which is any wider than the OE chain. Since all my investigations to find a sealed chain, with split link, which is no wider have proved fruitless, it's definitely a non sealed chain that I'll buy.
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Wild and ignorant speculation here.....but if you have lots of clearance OUTside but not INside, is it possible to mount front and rear sprockets with washers inside, so the clearance evens up, eg 5mm each side, so wider chain?
Otherwise, I'm with CrazyFrog -non o-ring chain and Loobman/Scottoiler.
Although really, with NEW bikes being sold on old values, this should all be laid at Enfield's door. THEY, rather than you, should be worrying about what this issue may do to reputation and sales. I'm sure you've been down that road though.
Good luck!
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Hi Brendan. I've already considered that possibility, see above. It's not as easy as it may sound I don't think. Not to do it properly anyhow. The rear sprocket is mounted on a spigot, which isn't very deep. The front one is held by a nut so moving it outwards would create problems with the nut engaging. Also, placing the sprocket more outboard puts greater load on the bearing.
No, I'm ok with the idea of going back to a non sealed chain. I'd prefer a sealed one, but not at any cost or risk. Cheers for the thought though 👍
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No bother, just chewing the fat really! Years back when I had a T140, I used to go for unsealed chains, but have two, so I could swap, wash, and soak in Linklyfe now and then. They used to get a hard life from that bike. Something like the Xbr needs only rare adjusting, and although I am not a big user, I still never take the chsin off to PROPERLY clean it.
Seems an embarrassing mistake for Enfield - I hope they can reconsider sprocket/boss design, or just ensure chains start life FULL of grease if they are buying them as OEM.
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Got the OE chain off this aft. Disgusting state. The only free link out of 102 was the split link. That's because the fit of the o rings here was poor enough to let in some of the spray lub. The rest were all extremely stiff joints. Horrendous.
Non sealed chain gone on. Larger proportions of links and pins but same overall width.
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MZ - probably the best chaincase in the world.