Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Bike Problems/Questions => Topic started by: Steve Lake on May 27, 2018, 08:20:34 AM
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now then.... #1's gearbox is in tatters (well 5th at least), I have several options, I have several 400 bottom ends and an xt600 bottom end.... question is, are the ratios wildly different, I'm assuming the xt will be, but hoping the 400's will be same or very similar, I seem to think, when I had a 400 lump in #1, that it felt like the gearing was the same....
any help from you wizards out there would be greatfully received ...
pip pip
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Aye Steve,
Sad! Lovely day and sitting in front of a screen doing techy stuff! ;D Just had a 1988 GSX1100 (Black/Red) in the workshop after it blew the baffle out of the backend, just down the road. A couple of self-tappers will hold it in place until it get back home to Fettercairn via Fort William! ;D Wall to wall BLUE, wi' a fresh breeze from the NE keeping it cool, just like home! ;)
Right, your ruddy gears mate. All this info is gleaned from Fowler's parts lists that are available online and I will download the links for each one so that you can make your own mind up. "Pinion" is the gear on the mainshaft (drive from crank), "Wheel" is the gear on the layshaft (drive to rear sprocket).
SRX 400 1988: Gear, 5th pinion (24T): Part Number: 2JT-17151-01 (Replaces 2JT-17151-00). Gear, 5th wheel (19T): Part Number: 2JT-17251-00 BOTH IN STOCK
SRX 600 1986: Gear, 5th pinion (??T): Part Number: 1VJ-17151-01. Gear, 5th wheel (??T): Part Number: 2JT-17251-10 (Replaces 5Y1-17251-00
PINION IS UNOBTAINABLE AND WHEEL IS BACK ORDER
XT600 1987: Gear, 5th pinion (24T): Part Number: 2JT-17151-00. Gear, 5th wheel (19T): Part Number: 2JT-17251-00 BOTH IN STOCK
So, IMHO it would appear that as long as you relace the gears as a pair, measure up with a micrometer to make "sure" and have a press with which to remove/replace the Gear, 2nd pinion from the mainshaft [firstly measuring the overall width of all the gears on the mainshaft and the internal distance between the 5th and 2nd pinions, as both are critical (can send specs if required/Speak to Slipstream)], I would give it a go. I used Slipstream to do the job for me and they supplied the pinion and wheel gears as well. As mentioned in earlier posts, the 2nd gear pinion can 'grip' then jump when being pressed onto the mainshaft and this means that it has to be removed and re-pressed until the overall gear cluster width and the internal distance between 5th and 2nd pinions are correct.
Fowlers_SRX400(3HU1-1988)_parts_list (https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4060101/srx400-3hu1-1988-010-a/drive-shaft)
Fowlers_SRX600(1XL-1986)_parts_list (https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4045418/srx600-1xl-1986-999-a/transmission)
Fowlers_XT600(2KF-1987)_parts_list (https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/4049717/xt600-2kf-1987-999-a/transmission)
My regards, Bill
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Bill!!!!!!!..... you have surpassed yourself!!.... I hadn't considered that I might need a press, and tolerances were so critical, so.... maybe I should entrust the job to Slipstream if I were to repair the existing cluster.
however, it looks from the part numbers (and tinklers in Norwich confirm this), the long if the long number is the same then the 1jk/2jt/5y1 etc are indicative of the bike model number, and irrelevant... so I could replace the whole cluster (IF... I have a good set.)
least... that's plan A
plan B.... send cluster off for repair.... expensive no doubt
thanks for the comprehensive reply Bill...
Hope you are fairing well.... able to kick over Sally yet ?
pip pip
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Aye Steve,
Yes, Sally has been kicked over multiple times and taken for canters through the unusualy dry Perthshire countryside since last Saturday 19th May. A bit sore doing the deed, but 3 specific stretching exercises from the physio appear to make a difference and I am no longer louping along, but able to walk, straight and at a reasonable pace. Bit sore from the nerve damage after a bit, but it could have been a whole lot worse.
If I remember correctly the gears from Slipstream cost ~£120 + £50 labour + ~£12 P&P. As I have said before these machines are "No cheap", once you start taking them apart and having to use new parts and others expertise.
Give Martin a call after the Bank holiday and see what the craic is, or maybe speak to Stu or Andy at 'Steelcraft' or "SCR Classic Motorcycles" at Soham. Here is the link to their website: SCR_Classic_Motorcycles_website (http://www.scrclassics.co.uk/price-guide/)
Toodle pip, Bill
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Glad to hear you're back on the road, and continuing your improvement, excellent timing as the weather continues to be biker friendly :D
Thanks for the additional info, especially SCR, I'd forgotten all about them, and well within a mornings round trip on #6, i'll be giving them a ring on Tuesday, see if they can take the job on.
my main problem at present is shifting the nuts on the balance shaft and crankshaft ... really need to get hold of a hammer socket driver, should be able to sort one out, friendly local motor engineer (yes, a proper engineer, old school, fix anything, has always looked after my sad procession of automobiles when it comes to MOT time, at 73 he's semi retired, but still loves to get his hands dirty, he must have the last remaining tin of original Rozalex in the universe :D ), so will be round to his place on Tuesday to borrow said tool.
had any of these storms ? ... we only had a few rumbles of thunder and a few drops of rain.... but 30 miles away big floods etc, weird weather we're having!. I blame Brexit :) .
pip pip
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Aye Steve,
Storms! What storms? :o Nothing like that up here, once the harr has burnt off it has been wall to wall BLUE, with a cooling NE breeze. Yesterday, Edinburgh stayed under Mannin's Cloak and only reached 12⁰C, whilst across the Firth of Forth, Fife basked in 23⁰C+, as did we.
If you want to see real storms have a gander at the Maryland flash flooding videos posted today on Auntie BBC News.
I don't know what the timescale at SCR might be, as they also race Duke 250's and a RE Connie chair, along with other machinery! ;)
As for B....., "Tha's a lot a squit!" ;)
Always found wi' Rozalex that if you applied too much, small items tended to take on a life of their own i.e. migrate from the end of your fingertips! ;) Though it was good with hacks and cuts.
Toodle pip, Bill
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any help from you wizards out there would be greatfully received ...
pip pip
seventy three an I stil carnt spel !!!! 'greatfully' .... wot a plonker !
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Nuf said! ;)
I'm no better and have to read everything through at least once and 'spell check' afore sending.
My regards, Bill
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Spoke to Martin @ slipstream today, he's pretty sure I can lift the cluster complete out of one of my 400's and fit into #1, the catch is, (so far) that the drive sprocket sits on a fine spline and secured with a nut (and presumably a lock washer), as opposed to #1's which is on a 6 segment spline secured by 2 bolts onto a lock washer.
the fine spline arrangement is apparently a later (& better) system, and are readily available.
the clutch basket is also on a finer spline, but I have the basket off the 400, in all other respects the basket is identical to #1's.
I have the 400 split and internals look and feel in great nick, so this weekend I will split #1, and A) survey the damage and B) find out if indeed the 400 internals will fit ok.
exciting eh :D
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Aye Steve, this is sounding promising. I suspect the 400 shafts are the same as those on the XT600E as well. Here are images of Sally's layshaft splines, the XT600E layshaft splines, the tab washer and nut for the XT600E (N.B. the nut has a recess machined on its inside/against the tab washer to clear the splines on the shaft) and finally an image of Sally out for a canter at sunset last night.
My regards, Bill
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Bill. thanks for that.... spot on with the info, top pic is what I currently have ( martin sweet reckons this is the worst of the sprocket mounting methods), second pic is what I have just removed from my 400 bottom end (well, the splined shaft, I don't have the sprocket/nut/lockwasher ... but hoping these are readily available.... also hoping I can get a larger sprocket ... currently 16t on #1 (mind you, some may say that's why 5th gear got wrecked??)
Sally looking good, glad you're getting some good biking weather, has been fair to middling here too
pip pip
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Aye Steve,
Nut. Yamaha Part Number:90179-18552 £14-15 (inc VAT) Fowlers. All SRX 400 1988 (3HU) to 1990-1996 (3VN1/3VN2/3VN5) and same as XT600E 1990 3TB
Tab washer. Yamaha Part Number:90215-23265 £2-75 (inc VAT) Fowlers. All SRX 400 1988 (3HU) to 1990-1996 (3VN1/3VN2/3VN5) and same as XT600E 1990 3TB
On parts diagrams for the SRX400 1988 (3HU) to 1990-1996 (3VN1/3VN2/3VN5) there is shown a "collar" behind the sprocket. Part Number: 2NX-17462-00 £28-62 (inc VAT) Fowlers.
The sprocket on the parts diagrams for the SRX400 1988 (3HU) to 1990-1996 (3VN1/3VN2/3VN5). Part Number: 3GV-17460-10 £78-66 (inc VAT) "Back Order" Fowlers.
This collar is not shown on the XT600E 1990 3TB parts list and the sprocket appears to have a shoulder included in the casting. Part Number: 99999-01798 (15T).
The sprocket on the parts diagrams for the XT600E 1990 3TB. Part Number: 99999-01798 (15T) £65-68 (inc VAT) "Back Order" Fowlers.
On Wemoto, sprocket for SRX400 upto 1988 (2NY), chain is '520' size, with the 6 spline shaft. From SRX400 1988 (3HU) to 1990-1996 (3VN1/3VN2/3VN5), chain is '480' size, with the multi-spline shaft. So the 16 tooth sprocket '520' size only fits the 6 spline shaft. Not your multi-spline shaft.
On Wemoto, sprocket for XT 600E 1990 (3TB), chain is '520' size with multi-spline shaft and available with 1 extra tooth giving (16T) and costs £12-92 + P&P + VAT. You'll have to check whether the collar is required for chain alignment! Link follows: XT600E_16tooth_front_sprocket_Wemoto_link (https://www.wemoto.com/bikes/yamaha/xt_600_e/90/picture/sprocket_front_plus_1_tooth_-_jt_check_chain_length)
On Sally I went up 1 tooth on the front (16T) and then fitted an RD350YPVS rear (39T) up 2 teeth from the SRX original and a straight swap. This gives 70mph in 5th at 4,000rpm. It is only a wee change in ratio 2.44:1 (16:39), compared to the 'Standard' of 2.47:1 (15:37); whilst yours is 2.31:1 (16:37).
Hope this is as clear as the Great Ouse! ;)
My regards, Bill
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Hello,
This collar is not shown on the XT600E 1990 3TB parts list and the sprocket appears to have a shoulder included in the casting.
This is correct. XT600E multi spline sprocket has additional shoulder and is to be fitted without the additional collar.
I would certainly not bother with the 480 size chain/sprocket and convert to 520 XT600E.
Rene
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Thanks Bill.... I just knew, as I posted the message about the sprocket .... that you'd do your usual forensic search... :D.
can't believe the price of oem sprockets!
And thanks for the additional info Rene
couple of pics of different clutch basket splines
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Aye Steve and Rene,
Thank you for the compliment Steve, "Obsessive!" has been used. ;) And thank you for your confirmation Rene.
My regards, Bill
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ok. split #6's cases last night, attaches are some pics for those who have heard of but not seen the fabled 'SRX6 gearbox complaint'
pic 1 is #6's 5th gear 9or whats left of it)
pic2 from a different angle
pic 3 proposed donor gear cluster from SRX4
I spent the evening measuring and remeasuring the 600 & 400 gear assemblies, and they appear to be identical in all important points.
the only issues seem to be the splines for the clutch basket are different (but I can use the 400 basket which in every other aspect is the same. and the mounting for the primary drive sprocket is different (uses a locknut instead of a separate locking collar held in place by 2 nuts onto the sprocket), but I can source the sprocket and locknut ok..... so, once I locate my circlip pliers the transplant will take place..... watch this space :).
during my extensive measuring exercise yesterday, I made an interesting discovery/observation ..... the stroke, size of flywheels, size of balance shaft, spacing of cylinder studs are identical in both the 600 & 400, the case mouldings appear identical apart from the barrel aperture.
so..... I happen to have a spare XT600 barrel & head, I'm thinking I may get the 400 aperture machined out, and see if I can magic a 600 out of a 400,.... I'm Sure Bill will now research this fully and list all the insurmountable problems which will doom the project to an early grave.... ;D
pip pip
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Aye Steve,
"Yar box looks in poor kelter t’me, Bor!" or "Aye, tha's a saire fecht they gears a bin hevin'!" or "They's well knackered pal!" take your pick. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Did yur bearings survive the mayhem and how much shrapnel went through the oil pump?
As for the "research", I'm no going there. ;) ::) :-X Been up on the roof scrapin' the moss off and managed to give the wrist gip, so light duties on the spannering etc. However, doesn't stop a bit of beach combing and general loitering, along with some berry picking for the freezer. Maybe give Sally a canter if the weather drys up a bit, though we didnae get as much heavanley fireworks as others to the south and east of us.
Drop us a PM/email if you need anything in the rebuild and I'll take a looksee.
Good health and my regards, Bill
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Cheers Bill, hope the wrist clears up soon.... will keep you posted on the shenanigans in the workshop.... work halted in that dept at present, swmbo has decreed external painting is for good weather, bike/workshop stuff is for when it's not :-(.
currently praying for rain :)
pip pip
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Oh! :-\ We've done the outside painting and moved onto the roof, the latter I'm still able to do, but the tendons have said nuff! I tend to be a bit grass hopper, with these things.
It's now "persisting" heavily, so I'll try to reverse the flow down to you. #6 far higher priority. ;)
For exterior wood Sadolin 'Superdec', as used on those beach huts does a good job and goes on nice and easy. Quicker than the gloss paints etc. but the price makes my eyes water a bit, but that stuff that supposedly "Do what he say on the tin", aint worth a squit! ;)
Good health, Bill
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so far so bad, as they say.... no discernible markings or damage to any of the gears, no swarf in the bearings, everything runs smoothly no 'notchyness' atall....., so all good there.
the oil pump is a different matter.... badly scored, I have to assume this happened immediately after the gears disintegrated.
I removed the strainer tray, which although it looks as though the base can be 'sprung' off, it doesn't , so got pretty much mangled by the time I had got it off, the fine strainer mesh inside had done an excellent job of retaining most of the swarf, but the mesh is spot welded to the tray, so it looks as though i'll be buying a new strainer & pump.... or .....
I could use the strainer from the 400 engine, and the pump.... both identical, and the pump is virtually unmarked.... dilemma....
I know I always say... if you're splitting an engine for any reason, change the oil pump... ...... I have another pump that I bought off fleabay a while back, but not as good as the 400 pump... decisions decisions
yes Bill, I agree, worth the extra for sadolins.... the other stuff is gnats pee!
one bit of info I do need.... what is the best 'goo' to use when I bolt up the cases?
pip pip
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Bit late/early now Steve, but will contact re:"goo" ASAP later this morning. Now gone out, it is still persisting! ???
Was using Honda's finest (Liquid gasket 1216), but it has gone "Off", so used another and cannot remember the name (Loctite MR5922). Being an anorak about these things I use cheap small artists brushes to apply the "goo" rather than a muckle finger, but that is me being judgemental of your fingers and their dexterity! ;)
N.B. Strainers are no longer available! :( Copied from Fowler's website at 01:13am!
" STRAINER ASSY. 5Y1Y134C00 Replaces 5Y1-W1343-00 THIS PART IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE "
Suggest a blether with Martin at Slipstream to see if the XT660/MT03 strainer (STRAINER COMP. 5VK-WE343-00) will fit? However, this is on 'backorder' and at £47.47 inc VAT, but + P&P from Fowlers at present.
Off to "Sheet alley!"
My regards, Bill
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Aye Steve, I hope the garbled reply makes sense, it was 01:15am this morning! ::) If in doubt, give us another message or email.
Regards, Bill
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cheers Bill, yes made lots of sense actually.... lucky I have 4 x 400 bottom ends, and an xt600... so should be able to sort out a strainer, also it looks like the mz uses the same casings... so might look at that route.
so tomorrow it will be bite the bullet time and off to Tinklers with shopping list and well worn debit card.....
blummin heatwave here again.... wonder if it'll hold for the 'classic' TT ?
pip pip
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Aye Steve,
Maybe the way to go with the strainers, will be to reverse flush with paraffin and then give a reverse blast with a good airline (NOT THAT IRISH LOT!). ;) The amount of fine cloth lint along with metal swarf in the XT600E strainer was fierce, it being over ⅔rds full when I pulled it apart. NO! I don't know what had been used to clean the dip stick! :o
The MZ and the XT660 cases will be one and the same, will they not? Certainly the SZR660 strainer is now " STRAINER ASSY. 5Y1Y134C00 Replaces 5Y1-W1343-00 THIS PART IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE"; Fowler's tonight at 23:52pm. The XT660R uses a different strainer as in previous post, but Tinklers maybe able to advise? I note that 100 x MT03 oil strainers @£47-47 exceeds the purchase price of a brand new MT03 from Tinklers by a 'monkey'! ::) ::) ;)
'Nough from the sad o' and look after the moths tomorrow. ;) Shouldn't you be paintin' anyway? ;D
My regards, Bill