Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Bike Problems/Questions => Topic started by: welland99 on July 09, 2017, 11:46:35 PM
-
Got a new chain for my xbr last week and tried fitting it on Sunday. Although it's all back together now with new chain and sprockets, I don't feel confident that the rivet heads are flared enough. Trouble is that I couldn't get them to flare any more: the riveting tool was flaring instead of the rivet😣.
I forgot to measure the pin diameter before I began, so I'll get on to wemoto tomorrow to find this out. At the moment, all I have to go on is this:
Diameter of:
1) factory rivetted heads on all other links =5.5mm
2) factory riveted heads on the back of the joining link = 6mm.
3) front rivet heads on joining link after I have tried to flare them = 5mm.
On the face of it, it may be that the pins I flared have not been flared at all, or at least not sufficiently.
What do all think?
-
Just make sure that the riveting tool you buy/use is of decent quality and not some cheap thing. At the end of the day this is your main drive chain we're talking about. Trust me when I say "you don't want that thing coming off while you're whizzing along some country lane"
Cheers... Michael
-
Use the ball end of a ballpein hammer and get something big an heavy at the back of the link. Do this in the middle of the lower chain run so you cant knacker the sprocket. I use a large portable vice on a brick or two. Keep checking you haven't pushed the vice away or get a friend to keep it in place.
-
Personally, I still use a spring link rather than a rivet link on 428, 520 and 525 chains. I have been told that spring links are not supplied as 'standard' with 525 and larger chains any longer, but they are apparently still available for 525 chains from Wemoto on their listings.
It is far more convenient when cleaning and lubing chains, rather than phaffing with a rivet link.
I am just about to renew the 520 chain and sprockets on the SRX 600 at 17,000 miles and the 525 chain and sprockets on the Bros 400 at 18,000 miles.
With no more than 45BHP being transmitted through these chains, the motors are not stressing the chains and even if the spring link reduces the strength of the chain to 66% of it's potential, there is still a considerable safety margin remaining.
Finally, as a wee aide memoir, I thread a bright yellow zip tie around the outer spring link plate and spring link, trimming the tail close to the lock of the zip tie. This ensures that any movement or loss of the spring link can be easily seen. I would also agree with Michael that if you choose riveting tool it needs to be a properly hardened tool, not a 'bean can' special. ??? Whilst silver's ball pein hammer and a big lump of metal method is the one I would use at the moment, if I had to. :)
My regards, Bill
-
I must confess to never having riveted a chain as the potential for getting it wrong (either too tight or too slack) scares me a bit, and I hate the way riveting with hammers either side of the chain is described. This despite having done most things to bikes over the last 50 years or so.
Like Bill, I see no reason not to use spring links (except perhaps on 150 bhp monsters) with the proviso that they should be the same make as the chain, and replaced if they show any sign of movement / slackness. And never refitted - always a new one.
-
Ditto. I've never used anything other than bog standard spring link chains. Some drag racers use them on their creations, so if they're good enough for their tyre shredding monsters, they're fine on my little bikes!
I do always use a chain oiler though, and always buy decent quality chains.
-
This thread is very relevant to me at the moment, as Rossco500 has recently broken my chain breaker/riveter, (I probably would have anyway :-\). We have now bought a quality tool for the job, the cost being split between the four of us ;)
The previous comments make reassuring reading to me, as I too, have only ever used spring links, and without any problems :)
-
Use the ball end of a ballpein hammer and get something big an heavy at the back of the link. Do this in the middle of the lower chain run so you cant knacker the sprocket. I use a large portable vice on a brick or two. Keep checking you haven't pushed the vice away or get a friend to keep it in place.
I'm not averse to this method, but on my first attempt last night, it didnt go very well. I used a heavy lump hammer at thd back of the link, but i had trouble holding it steady whilst hammering the front. I'll have another go when I have an assistant at hand.
-
I spoke to wemoto this afternoon. Unfortunately they don't sell a spring link to match this chain.
Surprisingly, they said that there is no specification for flaring the rivet head. They could not tell me how to tell that the head had flared enough.
-
Aye welland99,
I wasn't going to mention Wemoto by name, but I am still able to order spring links for all the chain sizes that I use from their website. However, I believe that due to 'Product liability legislation' chain sizes of greater than 525 are no longer being produced in kits with spring links! ::) For lesser chain sizes, spring links are produced and can be supplied, but these are supplied as the "alternative" rather than as "standard". Spring links for the larger chain sizes maybe available from specialist suppliers, but are not available from many chain manufacturers and springlinks from different chain manufacturers do not necessarily fit other manufacturers chains. Differing dimensions in chain components ensuring specific components for specific chains, even though they are sold as being of the same 'standard' overall dimensions! >:(
If you require full and detailed instructions of rivetting chains , then this link below will direct you to the Regina chain website, where comprehensive illustrations and instructions are given for the full range of chain types, there fitting and maintenance.
Link: Replacement_of rivetted_chain_links_Regina (http://www.reginachain.it/eng/use_and_maintenance/index.shtml)
I consider Regina chains to be the equal of DID and they are widely used in motorcycle competition, but I have no commercial connection to them or their products.
Another supplier who you may care to use and ask advise from is 'Sprockets Unlimited', they know their business inside out, are happy to discuss your requirements, have a stand at Stafford and many other shows (see their website for details). Again, I do not have any connection with 'Sprockets Unlimited', but provide the link to their website, below, for information.
Link: Sprockets_Unlimited_website (http://www.sprocketsunlimited.com/)
I hope this helps.
My regards, Bill
-
I'm not averse to this method, but on my first attempt last night, it didnt go very well. I used a heavy lump hammer at thd back of the link, but i had trouble holding it steady whilst hammering the front. I'll have another go when I have an assistant at hand.
Exactly why I'm reluctant to do it.
The Chain Man http://www.the-chain-man.co.uk/ is another excellent supplier who is knowledgeable and helpful. Even when you order the wrong thing!
-
thanks Bill and Ian. I'll look up those links (ha ha) when I get a few minutes.
-
links ;D tommy
-
DONT USE SPLIT LINKS on anything over 250cc
I broke one with an SZR660 and the potential for doing damage to you and your bike when they let go is enormous.
Your choice but its just plain lazy to use split links. Most rivet links now have a shoulder on the pivot pin to stop you from pinching them up too tight.This leaves exactly the correct clearance for the "O"/ "X" ring. The old ones came with wires shaped like spectacle frames that stopped this happening, but it was very fiddly.
-
This is always a contentious subject for bikers, and at the end of the day, it's your life and your choice.
We had a talk from this guy :-
http://www.the-chain-man.co.uk (http://www.the-chain-man.co.uk)
at our club a couple of years ago and he was very informative. According to Andy, chains usually break as a result of a piece of gravel getting thrown up and stuck between the rear sprocket and chain. At this point, the weakest leak in the chain will break. It will probably be the riveted link or split link depending on which type of chain you have fitted. Another cause of chain breakage is apparently that most bikers run their chains far too tight. To loose is much better, so long as it's not so loose it can jump the sprocket. He also stated that neither type of joining link was inherently safer than the other.
I have never heard of anyone with an MZ or Jawa who has suffered from a broken chain for the obvious reason that with a fully enclosed chain it's impossible for a stone to get twixt chain and rear sprocket, and also on these bikes chain tension is very easy to check.
As I said before, I always use split link chains, as do many road, drag and off road racers of all descriptions. I don't let other people work on my bikes, because of some very scary experiences I've had, and personally, I find it much easier to correctly fit a split link rather than a riveted link.
YMMV of course, and as stated, it's a matter of personal preference, in the same way as the amount and quality of protective gear you wear is a personal choice.
-
Fair enough, however my breakage was definitely failure of the split link. I went back and retrieved all the bits out of the road afterwards. Fortunately it just spooled off and lay in the road, but they can wrap round the engine cases or your leg/foot.
-
I can't imagine a SZR660 with 40 bhp or so could actually break a correctly fitted spring link unless there was some other mechanical fault.
And I take exception to being called lazy.
-
On a spring link, does the removable side plate have an interference fit over the pins, or is it a loose fit (sorry, forgottten the correct engineering terminology for the opposite of interference fit).
-
great little thread this, thanks for all your comments so far. Let's keep the language free from acrimony.... ;)
-
Aye welland99,
With plain chain, no sealing rings, the side plate is a sliding fit over the pins of the connecting plate.
With some sealing ring chains the side plate is a sliding/slip fit over the pins of the connecting plate and the seals require compression to expose the grooves on the connecting link pins to the outside of the connecting plate, into which the spring link is then slid.
Finally, there are sealing ring chains that have a press fit/interference fit between the side plate and the connecting link pins. At the inner end of the interference fit pins there are machined shoulders that prevent the side plate from further compressing the sealing rings and yet allow the spring link slots to be exposed on the connecting link pins outside of the side plate, ready for installing the spring link. This greater degree of complication during manufacture and effort during fitting is an effort by the manufacturers to prevent the "tight link" syndrome that can also be readily achieved when rivetting links.
In the ideal world, with chain transmissions from the gearbox to the rear wheel, we would all fit endless chains that required removal of the swingarm whenever we wished to renew the chain. Users of the toothed belt final drive systems face this dilemma regularly, yet it doesn't dampen their ardour for the motorcycle brand. ;) 8) ;) However, that is another load of harrumphing for another thread! ::)
I'm sticking with plain chain on the Duke 450, no room for sealed link chain between the sprocket and the cases,and reducing the chain from 530 to 428. It just requires my attention, rather than the "Fit and Forget" mentallity and if you have seen the state of some sealed link chains being used, red with rust or buried in caked on grime, safety is down to the awareness of the user. If you don'know, don't ask or aren't told, why would you worry? ???
Happy linking! ;)
My regards, Bill
-
Last time I fitted a new chain I used the split link provided to take a steady ride to my local Bike shop where he fitted the riveted link with a proper link tool - only cost a few quid. While you are fitting a new chain take the opportunity to fit a chain oiler - they make a lot of difference to maintenance . The Loobman one works well and costs less than £20.
-
I'm with silver on this one,
having had a very, very serious accident (which I was very lucky to survive) and which is thought to have been caused by the chain coming off and jamming between the drive sprocket and the engine casing, which then had catastrophic impact on the engine which blew up like a grenade sending me into the path of an Audi Q5 which I hit head on. The impact speed they say was about 100 mph. The rest as they say is history.( fortunately for me I have no memory of the accident) Like I said in my earlier post "trust me this is your main drive chain, you don't want it coming off while your riding along at 70mph" or any speed come to that. Buy decent quality chains, sprockets and riveting tools. ⚙️⛓. You might not be as lucky as me
Cheers... Michael
-
I'm running my gpz500 quite happily on a split link chain. It's done 5000 miles and one small adjustment. It's an o ring style branded by jt.
However when I ran more powerful bikes such as my fzr1000 the size and quality of chain requires riveting, which I've carried out myself. Buy a decent quality tool and the job is straightforward. Mine is a built in hammer and anvil type. It helps to support the back of the anvil section with something of high mass, like a lump hammer. As pointed out by silver the pins are shouldered. The hammer section of the tool is "cupped" so, together with the pin shoulder you can't really go wrong. I think the cup portion on mine is pentroof shaped from memory.
-
Sorry to be a bit behind on this one but came across it and got me thinking.
Firstly I did many thousands of hard ridden miles on a couple of Tridents (not Hinkley) and Bonnie's all long before riveted links with no disasters so I am grateful to find that you can get them for X ring chains. I think I will get one for my next chain (hopefully not for another 15 or 20 thousand miles). I don't understand why they would be weaker than a riveted link.
I have only had a chain break once and that was on an XBR on the way back from Stafford a few years ago. I did write a piece about it in the old Thumperclub mag which still exists somewhere in the aether (incorrectly attributed to the other Richard). It was very scary as I was doing about 75 and it locked up the back wheel.
I did find all the pieces and found that it fatugued from a small rust pit. I have never used cheap a standard chain since.
But back to the original thread. As everyone who knows me can confirm, I will always try and find a cheap simple way of doing a job. For rivetting chains I use an old bolt splitter with the splitting head removed. This leaves a hole just the right size for pushing on the plate. I usually do this carefully alternating from one rivet shaft to the other until there is just the same resistance to movement as the adjoining links. I then put a Phillips bit, that has been ground to a point, into the splitter and flare the rivet with that. Judging by the amount of force needed to get the plate on I think it is a fairly tight interference fit so it is unlikely to come off even without flaring so it doesn't need much expansion to be certain.
I got my splitter from an autojumble an is similar to this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nut-Splitter-/332391858439?hash=item4d64194107:g:QoQAAOSw8GtZUicI or this https://www.amazon.co.uk/BGS-Nut-Splitter-3-24-mm-9024/dp/B01HXRSGLM/ref=pd_sbs_60_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=MQEF88RVYKQEFW0HXEQE
You obviously need to be sure that the splitter is removable.
Sorry about rambling.
Cheers
Richard Black
-
This is a very interesting thread!Years ago when i was a spotty 17 year old the chain flew off my GT250 Suzuki up the local by pass.I don't remember at what speed and i think i may have had my then girlfriend on the back at the time!Fortunately we were ok as it flew off the back and up the road but i was totally ignorant of any maintenance requirements whatsoever having graduated from a pushbike and then a Fizzy.After what happened to Moto63 i often ponder what is the safest way to fit and maintain a chain and sprockets,especially on my RS250 and XBR500 as they both have split links and singles seem to wear out chains and need more regular adjustment than other types.I can relax when i'm on my Guzzi safe in the knowledge it has shaft drive!Michael i think you were extremely unlucky and what happened to you could happen to any of us! Well done for getting back on your bike with a positive attitude ;)
-
Thanks Martin, as I've said a few times over last couple of years (yes it's exactly that since it happened) I had positive feedback from a few different quarters all of which at the time helped me stay positive. Plus the way I see life is you could be one of the unlucky people who, say went to the Manchester arena on the night of the bombing. Or were walking across London Bridge when some low life decides to mow you down. It's all odds, fortunately the odds are generally stacked in our favour but from time to time they're not, that day for me they weren't. (Well I'm still here so in one way they were) I always have looked after my bikes, never really neglected any of them. BUT clearly it only takes one small thing and look what can happen. Keep checking them chains chaps, and keep them lubed ⛓🔧
Cheers...Michael