Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Bike Problems/Questions => Topic started by: Oldtimer on May 30, 2016, 07:33:16 PM
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Hi Folks,
After having my bike for 4 years+ the rear chain is getting decidedly tired so I come to you PRO's for advice on the most suitable chain & sprocket kit to get, or chain & sprockets from different suppliers. I want something 'MID' range pref 'O' ring variety.
I look forward to your valued opinions.
Regards
Mike
PS I cover about 3-4000 dryish miles a year
:)
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Aye Mike,
For what my pennyworth might be worth. Regina or DID 'O' ring chain with JT sprockets, available as a kit from Wemoto and other suppliers. If you put "chain sprockets" in the 'Search' window in the top right of the page, you should be able to view all of the posts containing these words! You could further refine the serach by adding XBR to the search. I am also pretty sure that SteveC#222 and others have recently had a 'discussion' about this and can point you in the right direction. I run one of those SRX beasties and found those combinations work for me.
All the best, Bill
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Yep, I concur :)
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You want to fit a decent 'O' ring or 'X' ring chain - the Wemoto DID/ JT sprocket combo is a good bet. Cheap chains don't last. It's also worth fitting a chain oiler- the Loobman oiler is cheap and works well. I've had mine for ages and it's still only half worn.
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I don't think O or X ring chains really need lubrication. The one I had on my Hinckley Tiger 955i with something like 100 bhp was still in excellent condition at 20,000 miles when I sold it. I'd adjusted it once in that time and only given it an occasional spray with Wurth chain wax.
A decent view of it here just before I sold it. Note it looks quite slack - Tigers like them that way......
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/Tiger/images/DSCF2851.jpg)
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Just out of interest, can you over-oil a chain? I brush on chainsaw oil, and how I know my chains are well oiled, is that the rims of my back tyres are black with oil. Helps preserve them too :-\
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Thanks folks, given me room for thought. Hum! 'X' ring 'O' ring no ring at all -ouch!
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Just out of interest, can you over-oil a chain? I brush on chainsaw oil, and how I know my chains are well oiled, is that the rims of my back tyres are black with oil. Helps preserve them too :-\
To echo some of Ian's comments. Modern o ring chains, which give great service life using only light external application of a spray, surely are proof that a roller chain requires only light lubrication on the outside. Keeping the internal surfaces lubricated is the tricky bit, and that's the main point of the o ring.
If o ring versions are available, why would one not use them?
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i give my chains a squirt of ep80/90 oil. honda recommend this. its a lot easier to clean off than spray grease.
if i go on a long run then ill use spray grease.
brian
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Hi All,
I need to address the chain and sprockets on my XBR in the near future. I have a couple of questions that I haven't seen elsewhere:
1) What are the standard sprocket sizes? Mine are 15 front, 36 rear.
2) I'm considering raising the gearing a little to lower the engine speed in top gear. I'm expecting that acceleration shouldn't really suffer as long as I'm prepared to use the gearbox appropriately. Has anybody adjusted their XBR gearing?
3) Is it a straightforward DIY job to change the sprockets? Any pitfalls to watch out for?
4) Is it usual to change both sprockets at the same time, or to change the front one approximately twice as often? If I'm honest, the rear sprocket doesn't look too bad, though the chain is knackered and the front sprocket looks quite worn.
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Welland99 Standard gearing is 15 / 36 you cant really go much higher with the gearing as it wont pull past 80 although the revs will drop quite a bit at speeds below this, I tried 16 / 36 on my bike and that had a few more hp than standard but it seemed a bit too lazy, you might get away with 15 / 35 but Im not sure its worth it
Changing the chain and sprockets is pretty straightforward and you shouldnt encounter any problems, Its always best to change the chain and sprockets together
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Thanks Joolz.
I didn't expect 1 tooth on the rear to make a big detrimental effect.
Does anybody know an online gearing tool that has XBR gearing? I just had a look on gearingcommander.com, but it didn't have the XBR in the list.
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I know several of the GB500 owners recommend 1 or 2 teeth less on the rear sprocket though I haven't tried it myself.
Try this http://woodsware.aciwebs.com/gears/ (http://woodsware.aciwebs.com/gears/)
Standard XBR ratios
Primary 2.482
1st 2.384
2nd 1.555
3rd 1.200
4th 1.000
5th 0.875
final (standard 15/36) 2.400
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Aye welland99,
I understand this is about XBR's, but on Sally ('86 SRX600 44BHP on a good day!) I have increased the front sprocket one tooth from standard and the rear sprocket by two teeth from standard. So, 15/37 to 16/39 final ratio from 2.46 to 2.43. Dosn't appear to be any difference, but the larger sprockets give the chain an easier time and the slight reduction in the ratio just helps in that 3K - 5K rev band when accelerating, and also for wiffling around whilst 'rubber necking' over hedges! :)
Never had any issues with JTSprockets from WeMoto; for chains I would stick with DID or Regina, I have tried the Swift chain, again available from WeMoto, but found that it wasn't up to a singles power pulses (5K miles! :( ). I did speak with WeMoto about this and they were going to speak with their supplier, but once bitten twice shy in my case, so I haven't tried Swift again. I also note that there is now an even heavier duty chain from Swift available, but the inertia of throwing heavy chain around small radius sprockets isn't something I would wish to do.
All the best, whatever path you choose to follow.
My regards, Bill
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SteveC#222 Thats a handy page, just worked out my gearing 127.7 mph that will do me :)
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Thanks everyone.
Steve: that's a really handy website. Just what I was looking for. And handy that the XBR is already listed.
Bill: I can understand the theory of giving the chain an easier life by increasing the sprocket size. And, an increase in the front sprocket in particular will help the front sprocket life. An increase in 1 tooth at the front is approximately the same as reduction in 2 at the rear. I'll see what sizes I can find, but at the moment, fancy just increasing the front by 1 tooth to 16.
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Aye welland99,
You may find that without extra grunt from the motor, the bike is a bit sluggish in acceleration, not achieve the same top speed up a gradient or with a headwind and will probably run happier in 4th than 5th on some the restricted road speed areas like 50mph or down the 'B' and 'Unclassified' roads, if they are your preference. You may also find that in the 30mph areas you have to come down the box a cog more than at present.
All the best, Bill
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Hi Bill,
Yes, I fully understand that I may need to change down to a lower gear than present to achieve the same acceleration I have now, but I don't think that will be a problem.
Peter
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Wemoto stock rear sprockets at +1 +2 & +3 teeth and front sprocket at -1 tooth. Just watch the front sprockets as there were 2 different ones and I don't think they are interchangeable.
http://www.wemoto.co.uk/bikes/honda/xbr_500_f_g/85-87/ (http://www.wemoto.co.uk/bikes/honda/xbr_500_f_g/85-87/)
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Aye Peter,
I didn't think it would be a problem ;) but sometimes I'm no too sure about the written word conveying the results of my synapses firing off! ::)
All the best, Bill
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With respect to what bill has done in keeping the same ratio but using larger sprockets, one thing (a benefit) is that with larger sprockets for any given torque the load (pull) on the chain decreases. So does the load on the supporting bearing and even the shaft (oo er). The trade off is increased circumferential speed (chain speed). Larger sprockets (and/or smaller pitch) can only help minimize the chordal effect I would imagine?
I wonder if a heavier chain with a higher inertia value might actually be of some benefit on a thumping single?
I prefer a lower geared bike, but that's just my preference.
Cheers folks. :)
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Aye Propeller,
Used to run 5/8 x 3/8 (530) Renold's best that is standard pitch, on the Duke 450, with a 12 tooth gearbox sprocket and a 32 tooth rear sprocket, and found that I had reduced it to knicker elastic by 5,000 miles. Going up to a 13 tooth sprocket on the gearbox and 35 tooth rear gave about an extra 1,000 miles and similar gearing. However, there was a time in the mid to late '90's when 450 13T 530 gearbox sprockets were not available and the gearbox sprocket from a Honda CD175 with 17 teeth was a direct fit + a spacer to space the sprocket out from the gearbox. This is a 428 chain and with a 45 tooth rear sprocket readily available for the 250 - 350 Ducati racers, this provided the desired ratio and good mileage, 6,000 - 7,000miles before the knicker elastic syndrome returned.
Lack of lubrication and 'thumping' in a high gear, I believe, wreck havoc with a chain and maybe the increased mass of the individual components in the 530 chain could contribute to it's greater longevity on the bigger sprockets. I also know that Ducati singles taken out to 490cc for racing, run 428 chain very succesfully, without increased wear on the chain or sprockets. Good lubrication and not lugging the motor make all the difference.
Happy cantering, Bill
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Aye Propeller,
Used to run 5/8 x 3/8 (530) Renold's best that is standard pitch, on the Duke 450, with a 12 tooth gearbox sprocket and a 32 tooth rear sprocket, and found that I had reduced it to knicker elastic by 5,000 miles. Going up to a 13 tooth sprocket on the gearbox and 35 tooth rear gave about an extra 1,000 miles and similar gearing. However, there was a time in the mid to late '90's when 450 13T 530 gearbox sprockets were not available and the gearbox sprocket from a Honda CD175 with 17 teeth was a direct fit + a spacer to space the sprocket out from the gearbox. This is a 428 chain and with a 45 tooth rear sprocket readily available for the 250 - 350 Ducati racers, this provided the desired ratio and good mileage, 6,000 - 7,000miles before the knicker elastic syndrome returned.
Lack of lubrication and 'thumping' in a high gear, I believe, wreck havoc with a chain and maybe the increased mass of the individual components in the 530 chain could contribute to it's greater longevity on the bigger sprockets. I also know that Ducati singles taken out to 490cc for racing, run 428 chain very succesfully, without increased wear on the chain or sprockets. Good lubrication and not lugging the motor make all the difference.
Happy cantering, Bill
It's true what you say Bill, although what I had in mind with respect to the higher inertia is the reluctance to react to the on/off pulses of a thumper. Especially running on larger diameter sprockets (more momentum).
One can imagine two scenarios. One with a lightweight chain of high material spec and hollow pins, the other much heavier, lower material spec and solid pins. Both capable of meeting the load requirements but having widely different inertia values. There'd be pros and cons with higher inertia but I can't help thinking that, on a thumper, the higher inertia value pros would outweigh the cons. Dunno. Speculation really. ;D
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Wemoto stock rear sprockets at +1 +2 & +3 teeth and front sprocket at -1 tooth. Just watch the front sprockets as there were 2 different ones and I don't think they are interchangeable.
http://www.wemoto.co.uk/bikes/honda/xbr_500_f_g/85-87/ (http://www.wemoto.co.uk/bikes/honda/xbr_500_f_g/85-87/)
Thanks Steve,
I had heard that there are two different types of front sprocket, and I'm just trying to work out which I have.
All the options for front and rear at Wemoto will lower the gearing, rather than raise it. That's a shame.
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Wemoto stock rear sprockets at +1 +2 & +3 teeth and front sprocket at -1 tooth. Just watch the front sprockets as there were 2 different ones and I don't think they are interchangeable.
http://www.wemoto.co.uk/bikes/honda/xbr_500_f_g/85-87/ (http://www.wemoto.co.uk/bikes/honda/xbr_500_f_g/85-87/)
Thanks Steve,
I had heard that there are two different types of front sprocket, and I'm just trying to work out which I have.
All the options for front and rear at Wemoto will lower the gearing, rather than raise it. That's a shame.
I just realised that for the F and G variants, the wemoto site shows 16 teeth in the diagram for both the standard front sprocket and the "less 1 tooth" variant.
No matter, as mine is an H, and they do offer a "plus 1 tooth" variant with 16 teeth. ;)
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Just out of interest, can you over-oil a chain? I brush on chainsaw oil, and how I know my chains are well oiled, is that the rims of my back tyres are black with oil. Helps preserve them too :-\
I'd say not, and it's interesting to me to find someone else using chainsaw oil as well, although I thin mine a little with old engine oil thinking that might penetrate the links a bit better. Always trying to save a little money as well. It all helps to preserve the bike through the winter for sure, back wheel cleans up pretty good come the spring
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Aye Hondapartsman,
You are not alone with using chainsaw oil for your chains, in my trade it makes sense and is relatively cheap these days. However, I would advise that the veggie alternatives are a "NO! NO!", as they do not have the lubricosity or protective qualities of mineral oil and can reduce the chain to a clagged up, rusty mess in short order. Similar to leaving castor oil in your sump over the winter! :(
As for "thinning" it out, I wouldn't bother, it just means more oil gets flung off, rather than sticking to the bits you wish to lube! :-X Also the abrasive carbon particles etc found in old sump oil aren't going to help lubricate rollers, pins and little rubber seals, if you use that sort of chain.
Linklyfe on the kitchen cooker is still used by some of us on straight chains. The aroma is marvellous and masks, smoked fish dish or vindaloo dish smells! ;) Just don't spill it or drip the contents on the floor or your skin. Your partner/cohabitee may have other ideas! :-\
Power to your fleet.
My regards, Bill
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Just out of interest, can you over-oil a chain? I brush on chainsaw oil, and how I know my chains are well oiled, is that the rims of my back tyres are black with oil. Helps preserve them too :-\
I'd say not, and it's interesting to me to find someone else using chainsaw oil as well, although I thin mine a little with old engine oil thinking that might penetrate the links a bit better. Always trying to save a little money as well. It all helps to preserve the bike through the winter for sure, back wheel cleans up pretty good come the spring
Does chainsaw oil have a viscosity grade? I brush EP80 gear oil on my old chain. When I get my new chain, should I be thinking of using something better / different?
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Just out of interest, can you over-oil a chain? I brush on chainsaw oil, and how I know my chains are well oiled, is that the rims of my back tyres are black with oil. Helps preserve them too :-\
I'd say not, and it's interesting to me to find someone else using chainsaw oil as well, although I thin mine a little with old engine oil thinking that might penetrate the links a bit better. Always trying to save a little money as well. It all helps to preserve the bike through the winter for sure, back wheel cleans up pretty good come the spring
Does chainsaw oil have a viscosity grade? I brush EP80 gear oil on my old chain. When I get my new chain, should I be thinking of using something better / different?
Get yourself a Loobman chain oiler - £20, works well, uses any oil ( I use the cheapest engine oil I can find) and keeps the chain in great shape. I've had one for years and hardly ever need to adjust my chain.
http://www.loobman.co.uk/ (http://www.loobman.co.uk/)
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Just out of interest, can you over-oil a chain? I brush on chainsaw oil, and how I know my chains are well oiled, is that the rims of my back tyres are black with oil. Helps preserve them too :-\
I'd say not, and it's interesting to me to find someone else using chainsaw oil as well, although I thin mine a little with old engine oil thinking that might penetrate the links a bit better. Always trying to save a little money as well. It all helps to preserve the bike through the winter for sure, back wheel cleans up pretty good come the spring
Does chainsaw oil have a viscosity grade? I brush EP80 gear oil on my old chain. When I get my new chain, should I be thinking of using something better / different?
Get yourself a Loobman chain oiler - £20, works well, uses any oil ( I use the cheapest engine oil I can find) and keeps the chain in great shape. I've had one for years and hardly ever need to adjust my chain.
http://www.loobman.co.uk/ (http://www.loobman.co.uk/)
Thank you, I'll give that serious consideration, they say buy three get one free, so that would be most of my bikes covered and the CD being a sensible bike with a FERC probably could do without one, the Ascot is shaft drive. All I'd have to do is find £60 in one go, that would be the hardest ask.
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I'm on the verge of purchasing chain and sprockets, but just wanted to run something past you all again.
Chain model:
I was on the verge of buying a DID chain, partly due to good recommendations and partly because the prices for alternatives quoted on the phone by wemoto were barely and cheaper. I have since looked on the wemoto website and was really surprised by the prices there for swift chains. It seems that on the phone, wemoto were comparing the cheapest DID chain against the most expensive swift chain, so not a valid comparison.
I know that there is a significant volume that says swift chains are poor quality and don't last long, but, these comments are rarely mated to a description of WHICH swift chain was used.
Chain DID VX Heavy Duty X-Ring Reduced from: £ 71.87 £ 64.68
Honda XBR 500 H 87 Chain DID VX Heavy Duty X-Ring
Chain DID VX X-Ring Premium Gold & Black Reduced from: £ 88.75 £ 79.88
Honda XBR 500 H 87 Chain DID VX X-Ring Premium Gold & Black
Chain DID ZVM-X Super Heavy Duty X-Ring Gold Reduced from: £ 118.07 £ 106.26
Honda XBR 500 H 87 Chain DID ZVM-X Super Heavy Duty X-Ring Gold
Chain Swift Heavy Duty O-Ring £ 43.20
Honda XBR 500 H 87 Chain Swift Heavy Duty O-Ring
Chain Swift Heavy Duty SX-Ring Bright Steel £ 25.55
Honda XBR 500 H 87 Chain Swift Heavy Duty SX-Ring Bright Steel
Chain Swift Heavy Duty SX-Ring Gold £ 25.55
Honda XBR 500 H 87 Chain Swift Heavy Duty SX-Ring Gold
Chain Swift Super Heavy Duty X-Ring Silver/Black £ 62.90
Honda XBR 500 H 87 Chain Swift Super Heavy Duty X-Ring Silver/Black
The swift website implies that the SX ring is their best (better than O-ring and no ring), so really surprised to see it a lot cheaper than the O ring at £25.55 .
Has anybody tyried the SX ring and found it to be any good?
Chain length
If I get a front sprocket size +1 tooth, with standard size at rear, will the standard length be long enough? Is there enough adjustment available for the back wheel to come forward that little bit more?