Thumper Club Forum
Club House => Chatter => Topic started by: squirrelciv on February 21, 2007, 09:49:43 AM
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.......can we justify using fosil fuelled vehicles PURELY for pleasure???
DISCUSS!
(lights touch paper and retreats)
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of course we can , my bike has a kat , i get easy near 100mpg out of it while doing 70mph on the motorway
so its very friendly to the enviroment compare to other bikes which waste more fuel , i mean you can`t justify 40mpg on a bike , there are already people carrier out there which have a better mpg
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It's getting to the point where you'd have to say no. But then let's consider our individual carbon footprints. Sure, if we all gave up dirt biking and scratching then we might reduce our emissions by, erm, perhaps the amount generated by a number of jets flying holidaymakers to Marbella or the amount of fuel used to power all those offices that leave their lights on overnight.
Small strokes are important to the overall picture, but it's the larger strokes of corporate change that will make a difference.
There was a time that I cycled to work all week and used the bike on the weekend and it has to be said that I did feel a smug glow of satisfaction in offsetting my limited use of fossil fuels.
GC
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I feel fine about it- ofsetting my current carbon footprint by running the garage off solar, and the van on veg oil.
Neither of which I do currently, but will do soon.
(sounding rather like a politician there, admittedly)
:o)
a
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Moderation and making sense of the big picture has to be the key IMHO.
How may flights to Florida or Spain do I get for a years worth of bike carbon footprint?
Should we ban beer? It uses fuel to make and it's a leisure activity?
How much energy does it take to scrap my bikes and turn out the hand carts and bicycles?
Should sex and gardening be the only leisure activities as in our greener past?
Panic is the key to making the whole thing a massive disaster. Lets scrap all the cars and bikes and build lots of electric buses, plus the Atomic power stations to charge their rare metal batteries. We can build a coal powered station to power the mine where the lithium comes from!
As the actual picture is so big and complicated the only way to deal with it is in small steps. Sure, new bikes should do 80 mpg and put out less than 100mg/km etc. New power stations should have the best technology possible. We should make it easier to recycle what it's worth recycling, keep using what works, make it easier for people to work at home and so on.
BTW, biking is not only a leisure activity. I ride to work every day. I only use a car for business trips (company forces me, can we have a law that taxes their low use pool car?) and shopping (VAT refund on deliveries by greener vehicle?). My "big" bike does 52 mpg, way better than the company MundaneO BTW.
If you want to start a fight, I can think of a great way to save a fair bit of pollution. Get rid of that near empty bus (contains driver, 1 meths fueled nutter and a teenager with a large collection of rap music and a £1000 worth of mobile stereo) that I pass twice a day!
Andy
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Chaps, the question relates to leisure riding not biking in general. Sure, by using motorcycles, especially smaller, more economical ones, we are reducing our carbon output, and you could also argue that those of us still using 80's and 90's machines are helping to reduce factory emisions generated manufacturing new machines.
But can we now justify driving as well as riding purely for pleasure?? By that I mean hopping on the bike/in the car and going for a jolly. I'm not so sure we can. To be honest, I've never been that big on pleasure rides just for their own sake, but that's more to do with cost, time and family commitments plus I get to ride every day (near enough) with a just reason anyway (ie work/shopping/visiting etc)
I've been thinking about this quite a bit recently and am coming round to the view that at some piont we are all going to have to curb our pleasures for the greater good. If we don't something will curb them for us. I'm gearing up get my relaxation away from environmentally harming means and more from just the great outdoors.
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Devil's Advocate, Pat!
I also don't ride much for "fun" these days, but am planning a jaunt round europe this summer. I'm not flying, and its less pollution for me & the squaw than a car.
But presumably all motorsport would be deemed "pleasure". I have thought that a weekend racing is pretty un-eco friendly (tho some grasstracks are using bioethanol I think).
-diesel for the van (veg oil?)
-engine oil
-tyres
-parts!
-the little bit of fuel that I get to burn
I agree completely that burning a tank of juice just for fun probably can't go on. I personally don't, but as a scrawny(er) 17 year olds, we'd often get in a car or 2 & drive a hunderd miles in a night, just have a fire on a beach... No longer!
Good debate tho mate!
a
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Guiltily I have to say no, but carry on doing it until forced otherwise. I feel my carbon footprint is smaller than most peoples, but I like my bikes and have an MG Midget and I ride/drive them for pleasure, though I do feel guilty about it sometimes. But I don't drink much, don't get out much, so might as well top myself now (burial, not cremation) and stop the guilt and any future polluting I will do. Would welcome the opportunity to do both activities in a less polluting way, even writing this is an indulgence and not necessary.
Paul
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Yep, agreed Paul. I need my Transit for my business, it's a necessity and I ride my bikes for fun when I get the opportunity. I still recon my 'footprint' is smaller than the average household (all electric @£25/ month!)
I either ride my bikes (which do not congest the roads) or go sailing for my leisure and always camping. Just how far are we expected to go before we don't have a life at all? I work hard for a living and expect some free time in which I can relax and enjoy myself or what is the point?
Big businesses should take the lead in the 'carbon footprint' issue as they are the most polluting. Any person of intelligence can make some small impact on the whole issue and probably are more concerned than some of the big businesses that think only of profit before consequences.
Bottom line is that I will continue to ride my bikes purely for fun and consider any other means to help the environment.
........and if I get the opportunity I will get even more bikes!
SteveD
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I thought....................."Sod it!".
Or, feotal position and wait..........................!
The Chinese are coming and cockroaches will be here long after Homo sapiens.
The last one out had better turn the lights off! Bye!
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Interesting thought - and one bound to occur to those who wish to curb pleasure.. moan moan moan.
However - it cannot be denied that we are part of the generations that have happily buggered up this place - we are all Nero's fiddling away. Riding for pleasure - probably cannot be justified, but we will all try, as is being done. We all need to make small steps towards being part of the solution, rather than paertof the problem, and I do not think we can just dump the infernal combustion engine just yet.
Big business - mmmmmmm - that will be the big business supplying us with the goods and services we demand at ever lower prices.
We are turning this place into a toilet, and we each need to take responsibility for our actions - rather than trying to justify them. If you ride for pleasure - fine, say so, but do not try to say it is fine because you do not fly off to Florida etc.
The amount of fuel we use riding for pleasure does have an impact. I will hold my hand up and say I would do it - because I enjoy it.
Seem to remember back in the 70's when there was the oil crisis, they looked at banning sports that consumed excessive amounts of fuel - intent to target motorsports, only to find that banning fishing would have saved about 10X as much fuel.
R
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I try, I really do, to reduce my carbon footprint. Riding a pushbike or commuting by train is a good start. But then my Dawn leaves all the lights on and turns the heating right up if I'm not about and we use a taxi to get home from the pub for the sake of a fifteen minute walk! Using my 650 for a bit of fun now and again seems insignificant when we are a two-car household. But the way I see it is I'm taxed to the hilt and I/we deserve to have some sort of leisure before I leave this mortal coil. Saving the planet is a concern for those that are really killing it....the big conglomerates(?)
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The human brain doesn't like inactivity and pretty much any activity uses energy or has some effect on the planet. If you don't ride your bike what will you do instead? Watch telly and use electricity, read a book printed on a cut down tree, go ride a push bike that's made in a factory, invent a new religion and plot world domination? Ok, the amount of damage varies but the alternative of sitting in a dark corner doesn't work either.
There are two ways to stop the disaster. We can stop what we are doing. This involves sitting in that dark corner for fun, stopping anyone in Asia or Africa having any hope of getting to our level of comfort, shooting 2/3 of the worlds population so the rest can live at our level and so on. No fun and honestly impractical as well as pretty nasty.
The other way is to get smarter. Recycle, use what we have better, share things out more equally. I have no problem cycling to work so I can use my share of the petrol for a trip to France if it means some hard working guy in China can have electricity 24 hours a day. I'd rather they invented fusion power so we can all have hydrogen powered superbikes, but not in out lifetime I guess. If I work harder than the guy in China I expect a bigger share, but it works the other way too. The problem is how we reach the point where there are sensible shares of the sustainable resources.
Small steps has to be the key, not massive revolutions based on one idea. A lot of motorsport is switching to bio-ethanol which is the most logical technology we have today (way better than the electric car brigade who seem to think the power for the charger comes from a magic imp). When we play we learn. Small steps hopefully filter to road bikes and make everyones share bigger. The sport in this case may or may not drive the change, so maybe we pay now for a gain later. The same can be said for thousands of touring riders demanding 100 mpg because petrol is £5 a litre. If the ideas don't come, motorsport and pleasure rides will die out naturally as people choose to spend what they are given differently.
OK, maybe we don't learn, but we wouldn't learn in that dark corner either.
Andy
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Some good points AndyM, but some awful assumptions too. Yes I would agree it is better to think our way out of the carbon crisis (after all we can't uninvent stuff) but to assume we can only sit in the dark without harming the environment is a little extreme.
Remember, carbon is an element and is constantly getting recycled by nature all the time. The problem now is one of volume and the planets systems for coping with it getting overloaded. Yes everything we do will create carbon emisions (even sitting in the dark, your breathing) it's a matter of degrees. Burning fossil fuels to travel from A-B puts more carbon into the air, than walking there. (bear in mind the human element is a constant as you will live the same amount of time and produce the same amount of carbon whether you sit in the dark or ride about on a rocket)
You can't sit there and tell me that it is as harmful to hill walk for a day as to ride a motorbike for the same amount of time.
To be honest here, I will still ride (a bit) for the hell of it and I can justify it because I've put in the effort to reduce my effects on the environment. I like to think it's like being on a diet and treating yourself to a curry at the end of the month :-)
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I like to think it's like being on a diet and treating yourself to a curry at the end of the month :-)
Brilliant analogy (mind if I borrow it elsewhere?)! We need to cut out the supersize burgers, eat more salad but have the odd curry so we don't go nuts.
Andy
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I did consider hitting the report to moderator button, this is a bloody good question and great answers, but my head hurts now and I feel even more guilt, does this count as assault.
Paul
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Hells Bells................imho......we really are too late..... whatever we do now will have little effect on where this planet will be in a 100 years time.
I'm convinced that the planet has gone through far worse upheavals in its history, and will do so in the future...and survived them. The human race happens to be an unfortunate and insignificant (though catestrophic) interlude in the planets history,
a mistake that evolution probably won't make again...... as someone said the co*kroaches will out survive us all.
So i shall continue enjoy my odd trip out whilst i can, ruining my otherwise carbon neutral footprint.
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Hi all again
Bio ethanol - a disaster waiting to happen. Like the eleccy boys who seem to think that electricity is carbon nutral - where does this come from? In the main it is intensivly (read non-sustainably) raised corn, either grown where it should not - ie cutting down swathes of the carbon sink (read rain forest) or on land needed for food. To make it economic it has to be grown with massive fertiliser etc inputs - which come in the main from fossil sources and take loads of energy to produce. Then the residues of these in the watercourses, adipose tissue etc are not dealt with by the producers / users but through other taxation - IF and this is a big IF - IF the cost of removing artificial fertilisesrs etc was added to the cost of food crops grown with those fertilizers etc - the cost would typically be greater than for similar Organic produce - gives you an idea of the financial oncosts of intensive growing - and apart from in "Cars" I have not seen 'Organic' fuel yet.
The world has suffered worse? Mmmm the rate of change and the magnitude of change and the cause of change are all pretty unique. There is this feeling that the world as a complex adaptive system will cope - but remember that neither Venus not Mars coped. If we make a systemic pertebation for which there is no stable state - we cause runaway reinforcing systemic change we could see cataclysmic changes with in 50 to 100 years of that pertebation. Just a basic XbarR chart of the temperature shows that we had a systemic change 10 years or more ago, and this change seems to be a growth system, and it seems to be moving faster than the general consensus. Lovelock showed quite clearlyt with the Daisyworld experiments how quickly and how easily a complex adaptive system ceases to be adaptive and just fails.
Curry at the end of the month - nice analogy, but maybe we ought to be enjoying our heathy eating rather than seeing it as a pennance to be 'treated' with a curry.
Big business being the problem - nope, big business just serves us. If we do not like the actions of (eg) Exxon but think SHell are OK - then use Shell not Exxon petrol. If you do not like the actions of Nestle, dont buy their products.
Mmmm does this make me bipolar? - Arguing against what is in the garage?
R
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What's wrong with conversion into a Venus or Mars?
All seems a bit NIMBY.
No one asked you if you would like to appear in the production, you do your best with the part you're dealt and you maybe fortunate to leave your genes and some icons for which you'll be remembered by.
Live 'The Spark', you might be one of those cockroaches or amoeba!
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Sums this debate up nicely! ;-)
http://www.ibiblio.org/Dave/Dr-Fun/df200605/df20060529.jpg
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Hi all again
Bio ethanol - a disaster waiting to happen. Like the eleccy boys who seem to think that electricity is carbon nutral - where does this come from? In the main it is intensivly (read non-sustainably) raised corn, either grown where it should not - ie cutting down swathes of the carbon sink (read rain forest) or on land needed for food. To make it economic it has to be grown with massive fertiliser etc inputs - which come in the main from fossil sources and take loads of energy to produce. Then the residues of these in the watercourses, adipose tissue etc are not dealt with by the producers / users but through other taxation - IF and this is a big IF - IF the cost of removing artificial fertilisesrs etc was added to the cost of food crops grown with those fertilizers etc - the cost would typically be greater than for similar Organic produce - gives you an idea of the financial oncosts of intensive growing - and apart from in "Cars" I have not seen 'Organic' fuel yet.
R
Never looked at it that way. I guess the sugar based stuff in Brazil is intensively farmed on cut down rain forest land?
The fuel cell brigade are rather ahead of their time too and seem to skip over the bit where they can't have a fusion reactor to make the hydrogen and so distill it from oil! The media then go on about taking hydrogen and oxygen and having water as a by product!
Harry Harrison had a solution, the flywheel vehicle. Ok, it'll only go in straight lines and until we make frictionless bearings it'll be a years winding up for every 10 minute ride, but it would run on beer and curry!
I don't think there is any doubt that the planet will survive and sort itself out in the end. The question seems to be if humans will be about to see it (with no disrespect to Venusians, Martians etc.). As an off topic comment, I wonder how much H G Wells worked out? The idea of Martians coming to get the Earth because Mars was dying seems pretty topical these days. Boots on the other foot now of course. Pass me the heat ray......
Andy
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Hi All
Neither Venus nor Mars appear to be complex adaptive Systems - the atmosphere is for all intents and purpose a stable gas mix. Earth on the other hand has an unstable gas mix - suggesting that something is occurring over and above the normal geological gubbins to affect it. This would be life, which is complex and adaptable. There may be a slight imbalance of methane on Mars - suggesting that there may be small amounts of life - but as Lovelock points out - not alot as you cannot pick it up on the spectrograph's from here - where as the O2 CH4 etc in the Earths atmosphere would stand out like a beacon.
Venus and Mars are stable state systems, we are Complex and Adaptive - and whilst I may not survive and my boys may have a struggle on their hands I would like to think life will continue - but it may not...
As Dr Deming used to say about businesses Survival is not guaranteed
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But can we now justify driving as well as riding purely for pleasure?? By that I mean hopping on the bike/in the car and going for a jolly. I'm not so sure we can. To be honest, I've never been that big on pleasure rides just for their own sake, but that's more to do with cost, time and family commitments plus I get to ride every day (near enough) with a just reason anyway (ie work/shopping/visiting etc)
Errr...the winters are milder now, is that a bad thing? I never really liked riding in snow and ice. Also, you hop in the car for pleasure?
There's a much bigger picture, don't let the powers that be use global warming as an excuse to control you and take your money and fun. If there was a political will to save the world it would require fairer distribution of the worlds resources in general and that aint gonna happen. It is no accident that conspicuous consumption goes hand in hand with membership of the political and social elite.
The earth is a self-regulating system; it'll rectify itself and humans will probably survive in some form, it might be a bit traumatic though so better stock up on penicilin and black powder. The problem is not the amount we waste individually, there are just too many of us but we breed readily so are fairly expendable.
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bear in mind the human element is a constant
But it's not, we keep breeding and have too few natural predators.
Enjoy your bike and don't feel guilty (unless you've neglected to change the oil).
Your starting post asked whether we could justify riding for pleasure, what better reason is there? I've given up doing hard miles and bought a car for the chores.
...never mind light the blue touch paper and retreat to a safe distance, throw a match in the box and stand there grinning like a loony.
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bear in mind the human element is a constant
But it's not, we keep breeding and have too few natural predators.
Enjoy your bike and don't feel guilty (unless you've neglected to change the oil).
Your starting post asked whether we could justify riding for pleasure, what better reason is there? I've given up doing hard miles and bought a car for the chores.
...never mind light the blue touch paper and retreat to a safe distance, throw a match in the box and stand there grinning like a loony.
LOL LOL LOL!
Good points. I suppose of all the 'pleasure polluters' out there, us lot on aging thumpers are the less damaging (the kettle club have a lot to answer for mind!) so I shall carry on being good for 95% of the time and enjoy a few miles every now and then.
Good debate though :-)
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Errr...the winters are milder now, is that a bad thing? I never really liked riding in snow and ice. Also, you hop in the car for pleasure
Depends on how you define a bad thing - we are getting and will get more extreams of weather - storms wind etc and the lack of cold does not kill off the slugs etc, nor does it stratify the seeds of our wild trees etc.
The earth is a self-regulating system; it'll rectify itself and humans will probably survive in some form, it might be a bit traumatic though so better stock up on penicilin and black powder. The problem is not the amount we waste individually, there are just too many of us but we breed readily so are fairly expendable.
It is at present - but SRS are fragile and prone to collapse from runaway inputs. There is no reason to believe that either the Earth will settle in a new slot nor that we or anything will survive. It probably will settle down somewhere - but frankly I have growing doubts.
It is not that there are too many of us it is that we use too much each - one - cutting consumption we can address creativly and humanly, too many people we can only hope for pestilence or a damn good war.
R
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global warming ? whats wrong with nice warm winters with 20 celsius and summers in the high 30celsius ,
perfect biking weather all year round , global warming sounds like bikers paradies ,no more frozen toes and fingers
the aftereffects of global warming in 50 years time like rising sealevels are not an issue realy ,the dutch live far under sealevel and have a coastline too and no problems with this fact in reality they even have a profit from it they get theire energy produced from the sea , they dont need nuclear powerstations they get it from the sea , to compare it just before london they have build a huge barrier but are they using it like the dutch to produce energy on a big scale ...no
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I have to say those who think warmer winters and sunny summers make global warming a good thing are akin to drug addicts who suggest the kick from a fix is worth it. Doh! True, this seems OK for now, but nature is slow to adapt to climatic change and this (relatively) sudden alteration will have dramatic effects in the future. Already sea life is being effected, with migration, feeding and breeding habits changing. Britain is getting invaded by some very unpleasant insect life too which find they can thrive here now.
By all means let us enjoy our bikes, but we owe it to future generations to start cleaning things up a bit.
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i was just a bit sarcastic , but i realy cant see a way for me doing more for the envirement
i dont need much energy in my bedsit , i have energy saving bulbs fitted , i even dont use plasic bags when i go shopping , fits all in the topbox
my bike is nearly eco friendly euro2 conform and always between 90 and 110 mpg , best was 116mpg on a trip to france, while others take the plane to paris an pollute our earth with one trip more then i in years on my bike
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There was a little sarcasm in my original posting too, sorry! I generally agree with the thrust of what people are saying here but I really do think that we're p******g in the wind without any global political concensus; Kyoto's a farce and that's our only hope??!!??
In the meantime the powers that be will use the whole business as another excuse to waste our taxes on interfering with our lives and skanking yet more taxes off us to replace what they are wasting to pay for the army of bean-counting bureaucrats required to fine us for putting the wrong kind of bottles in the wrong bins.
I doubt whether anyone here is a serious offender in the carbon stakes; older vehicles have paid the environmental debt owed by their construction and singles are generally frugal.
I had a new BMW X5 pull up next to me at a set of lights the other day; the chrome legend on it's side suggested it was 4.6 litres! If global warming is a problem why not just ban the sale of personal transport with an engine capacity greater than 2 litres? That'd be a start...in fact, ban the sale of all new vehicles; we'd have to fix the ones we have and make them more efficient.
CO2 is a by-product of global capitalism, I'd wager that it's level of production more or less reflects the wealth of the producer.
We're scr**ed, enjoy the warmer weather while you can and don't feel guilty.