Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Bike Problems/Questions => Topic started by: guest1130 on March 30, 2011, 10:38:45 PM
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Just wondering, don't know that mixture they have in different countries, but in Finland, they've just recently switched to selling only E10 95 and E5 98 fuel. The E-number of course represents the amount of ethanol in the fuel and the latter number represents octane.
I read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_ethanol_fuel_mixtures , that vehicles using a carburettor might need modifications to cope with 5-10% ethanol mixtures in fuel.
Do anyone here have any practical experience on how these work on honda RFVC engines - especially on the XBR?
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Interesting that this issue was raised here 10 years ago, and the UK is only now switching to E10 fuel. In fact, I noticed just last week that the garage I was at sold only E10 95 and E10 98.
So, where do we stand with E10 95 with our XBRs?
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Aye Welland99,
Any 'Nitrile', rubber, PVC hoses, seals, diaphrams, washers and some brass alloys are also etched by the ethanol in the fuel. The paint/lacquer on the petrol tank, if not a quality ethanol resistant formula, will be pickled by the E5 and E10 fuels. So far as I am aware, only 'Viton' rubber and 'Tygon' plastic fuel lines are resistant to E10 ethanol. I found 1 year old 'Nitrile' fuel lines cracked and perished on both the Ducati and the SRX. The latter's fuel lines are tucked up under the fuel tank above the cylinder head, so any leaks are potentialy catastrophic! :( I am also aware that brass jets can be etched if left immersed in E5 or E10 fuels.
So far as I am aware, as long as the octane rating is 95, then Japanese engines should run OK with the fuel, but it is the ancilliary parts and finishes that may suffer from the solvent effects of the ethanol. And, the hygroscopic potential of ethanol doesn't help, if it is left sitting in receptacles open to the atmosphere.
I have been using E5 95 and E10 95 in my Ducati single and add Castrol 'ValveMaster' to the fuel every time I refuel, at a rate of 1ml to 1litre of fuel. I am also using the same fuels in the Yamaha SRX 600ES engine and my wife's Honda Bros 400 and have added Castrol 'ValveMaster' during the autumn and spring periods when the bikes might be used less frequently. When laying the bikes up for more than 4-6 weeks, I drain the fuel tank, fuel lines and the carburettors, leaving them ventilated, so that condensation is less likely to form.
I use the Castrol 'ValveMaster' additive as it doesn't boost the octane of the fuel, but prevents the erosion of potentially 'soft' valve seats (Ducati) and stabilises the fuel to prevent the separation of ethanol into water in the fuel tank, all in the one product. It also has a very economical dosing rate. Most other products of this type only stabilise the fuel, or prevent valve seat erosion.
So, check your fuel lines, possibly use a fuel stabiliser and or drain the fuel system if the bike is not going to be used for more than 4-6 weeks and ride the bike, because you might no be able to in a few years! :(
If you have bikes with fibreglass tanks then you are in trouble, I have seen tanks disintergrate overnight, when left with fuel in them at classic bike race meetings. The fuel lines become clogged with glass fibres, as the E5 fuel disolved the resin and turned the whole tank in contact with the E5 fuel to a mushy, porous mess. I believe that there are resins which resist ethanol, but I am not sure if they are durable for any length of time. More modern bikes, with moulded plastic fuel tanks are also being affected by E5 fuels and this will only be exacerbated by the E10 fuels. I know that more modern Triumphs with moulded fuel tanks are having problems as are Ducatis. This following posting was made on the Morini Riders Club GB by a correspondent from the Netherlands, his first machine is a modern Morini and I quote it in full.
Most manufacturers now switched to tanks that resist ethanol, either by material or coating on the inside. Many tanks before 2015 (?) soften when exposed to higher ethanol levels and deform. Usually this results in mounting points not lining up when reassembling the tank. This effect worsens when you have a long project and leave the tank filled with fuel on the shelf not supported on the original mounts...
Seen it both on my 9 1/2 2006 and Ducati GT1000 2006. Have not removed the tank of my Guzzi V7 café classic 2012 lately so that may also have softened by now.
Others may have other advice or more detailed knowledge and if you want to get the screaming abdabs read the Wikipedia entry for ethanol!
Good health, Bill
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Don't know if this will be of any help.
Other videos are available
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I've also been concerned with the increase in Ethanol in our fuel...my old Guzzi has a fuel tank made by Acerbis from Nylon #6 and I read on an American forum that the tank was taken off the bike to do so work and when tried to refit a few days later, that the mounting holes would not line up...the tank had expanded?
I also have a more modern Derbi with what looks like an ABS tank, so I don't know how that will react.
Not taking any chances, I've been using Lucas Fuel Flex E10-E85....E85 which I believe is available in the US...so far so good.
I had an issue with my DR750 last year, I use it as a Winter bike, so pulled it out of the garage (with 7 month old fuel) and was hard to start, so when running, went out for a ride and overtaking a car, it coughed, which is most unusual, so drained the carbs and found droplets of water >:( in the float bowls, so rigged up an SU fuel pump on two lengths of 6mm steel tube to drain every ledge and crevice in both tanks, to be sure of no water to cause corrosion, so I started using the Lucas treatment with no further running issues, in fact it runs well. When I took the bike off the road this year, I drained the tanks and carbs and put 1/2 gall of paraffin in each side and filled the carbs...a bit of a faff I know, but should work.
Dave.
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When I took the bike off the road this year, I drained the tanks and carbs and put 1/2 gall of paraffin in each side and filled the carbs...a bit of a faff I know, but should work.
:)
Agreed Dave. A faff, but better than rolling 5 gallon drums of fuel/water mix about your lawn/drive, then standing it to settle, afore syphoning off the resulting "fuel" that is probably below 90 octane, having removed the ethanol; will detonate like mad in top gear and stuff a hole in your piston! ::)
A friend has multiple Guzzi' and he too reports this problem, with the 'Nylon' tank.
Good health, Bill
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Interesting to read what Dave#22 put about his nylon tank as the spitfire also has a nylon Petrol tank, think I’ll be emailing CCM just to clarify that it’s ethanol friendly 🤞🤞
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took #1 srx in for MOT yesterday ... all good, but got an advisory on what looked like perished fuel pipes .... 2 miles from home bike stopped, looked down, fuel pissing out of broken plastic filter,
looks like during the mot he must haf fiddled about with the pipes whilst checking them and cracked this filter. thankfully i had a few zip ties in my pocket (even better to carry with you than the hard to find baler twine ;-) ), so clamped off the offending pipe, set tap to prime, and got home.
on further investigation i found that the filters had become VERY fragile, and the pipe very stiff and perished ... ok, they had been in place for a couple of years, even so, i consider that a very early failure and that is when using predominantly E5 , god knows what will happen when its all E10!!
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Aye Steve,
I had similar problems with the small squareish, clear plastic fuel filters. Not only does the outer casing become weak, but the internal gauze filter collapses and either blocks the fuel flow or doesn't filter the fuel! :(
Now using Honda lawnmower filters. Will post part number when I have dug it out! :-[
Good health, Bill
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thanks Bill, i was working along those lines myself and have ordered some lawnmower filters from my local garden machinery shop.
bloody 'summer' weather is crap here ....
rear wheel out of #1, off for a new tyre .... now called a Bridgestone BT46, i called bridgestone uk, and checked with them for compatibility with the nearly new BT45 i have on the front .... all perfectly ok according to them.
pip pip
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Aye Steve,
Going "off topic"! ::)
The SRX Mono is getting aired, but the 450 MKIII has been out most of the time and now has 2,500 miles on the clock. The Hiedenau rear now only has 3mm left up the centre, so I will be going down the Avon RoadRider MKII route. Having read from the Morini Riders Club that at a very skaty Cadwell trackday this year, due to rain plus a car track day the previous day, laying a thick layer of rubber down that Avon MKII's performed as well as AM22 and AM23 race compound tyres on the day! We already use RoadRider tyres on the SRX's and the Bros. Conti radials have been suggested by some other 450 owners, but I'm uncertain about Conti's.
Good health, Bill
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Bill... what size avon's do you fit on your twinshock srx? i can't see they do 120/80-18 or 100/80-18 which are the reccommended sizes for the twinshock.
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Steve,
I have the 1987 SRX400 wheels fitted to the 1986 SRX600 twin shock (Sally), so a single front disc on a 17" wheel, with a 18" rear.
Tyre sizes I fit are 100/80 x 17" to the front and 120/80 x 18" to the rear.
I see that they do not make a 100/80 x 18", but a front 100/90 x 18" and a front or rear 100/90 x 18", also they list a 120/80 x 18".
So, either a bit of wheel swopping or use the higher profile for the front of #1?
Here is the link to the Avon tyres RoadRunner II tyre sizes listing. (N.B. there are two pages):
Avon_tyres_RoadRunner_II_tyre_sizes (https://www.avontyres.com/en-gb/tyres/roadrider-mkii?cartype=motorcycle#page-1)
Your health, Bill
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I have now run two tanks full of petrol labelled as E10, one on the Himmo, one the Jawa. They both ran absolutely fine, though in truth I suspect the Jawa would probably run on paraffin! Obviously I can't comment on any long term issues.
Let's keep this thread alive and see what, if any, problems we all get. 👍
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hi Bill, thanks for the info.... i have run 100/90-18 on the front of #1, (1986 1JK) ... at 80 mph + the tyre was touching the underside of the mudguard... in fact , on the way back from the thumperclub rally at baskerville hall, it actually wore right through on the front tip of the guard. .... after a few more miles it was ok as the tyre got worn. so, i will be sticking with the bridgestones for the correct size i think.
pip pip
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Aye Steve,
A friend is running BT45/6 combo on his Vincent 1000 and reports good handling, wet or dry and now getting 2,500 miles from a rear tyre compared with 1,500 miles from Avon RoadRider's.
Slainte, Bill
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just noticed this product ... anyone tried it ...B3C Ethanol Shield Fuel Stabiliser 118ml
at toolstation £7.98
Toolstation product code 19760
120ml treats 160L of petrol
this is what the manufacturer says about their product
Stabilizes fuel up to 3 years
OEM tested, verified and used
Prevents engine repairs
Prevents ethanol fuel problems
Works in all 2 and 4 cycle engines
Prevents water issues, conditions rubber and plastic
Vapor Corrosion Inhibitor (VCI) protects above and below fuel line
Dramatically slows fuel aging
No alcohol
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Evening Steve,
Castrol Valvemaster does similar and helps prevent valve seat erosion (I know that may not be a problem with Japanese valve seats) and I had 3 bottles delivered for £33-00 from an eBay seller, p&p free. 250ml bottle treats 250l fuel and the integral measure is very clear and easy to use.
Friend with Vincent twin found a pump with E10 in Inverness this weekend past, so decided to fill with E5 super unleaded, but is going to try the E10 as he has a "soft" engine that doesn't require the octane rating and will drain fuel system down if off the road for more than 8 weeks.
I'll probably try some E10 in the Duke as it is only about 9.5:1, with the Castrol Valvemaster and drain as required. May need to change jets and or richen the pilot screw, but if the USA has been using it since ~1980, I am sure we can run with it. Just more fettling! ;)
Bill
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Hi Bill, looks like valvemaster is the better option then, certainly price wise, and effectiveness. i'll give it a try .... if i ever get #1 back on the road.
on the plus side, i treated myself to an ultrasonic cleaner, obviously chinese, none the less it's doing a grand job, while i had the carbs off #1 (2 x dellorto 33's) i stripped them and left them in the cleaner overnight, gave them 3 30 min sessions, and they are looking grand. all reassembled and (hopefully) fuel proof.
pip pip
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You keep a troshin with that #1 ;D ;D ;D ;D
We are off for a bit of 'therapy' today, afore it gets too hot, 26°C past couple of days and shingles is giving me jip and I get rid of the pain on the bike. Maybe not what the Doc suggested, but the Mono will get an airing. ;)
Good health, Bill
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Shingles ???!!! ... .bugger!!, thats not good Bill.... horrible pain, sleepless nights ... are you getting any treatment? ... how long you had it ?
you're lucky with the weather , been grey, damp, cold and drizzle here for 5 days.
enjoy your ride out
pip pip
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I can conirm that Srx400 3VN monoshock, runs fine on E10, no knocking or lack of power. The solvent effect is clear and the cheap respray from the previous owner has bubbled up on the top of the tank around the filler cap, when evaporation was trapped by a rubber mat laid to protect the tank from knocks in the garage. The hydroscopic effect is not so much of a worry I think as it is treatable much like I did with a Harley to prevent fuel icing in winter. Using the bike regularly should help as well. The solvent effect is a worry for carb internals and I cannot see any additive that will stop this but it might slow it down. Fuel lines can easily be swapped. I run 2 filters between the tank cock and the vacuum tap to the carb. Currently using small round filters for a 50cc scooter. Will keep an eye on them but if bikes post a cetratin year are resistant to E10 solvent then surely filters designed for more modern bikes should be ok.
Interesting videos about removing ethanol but without that what do you think about carb/petcock damage from solvent?
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Aye Steve and welcome Simon,
You'll notice we can ramble on a bit here and go off at tangents! ;)
Steve, went out on the run and after ~10 miles the Duke coughed at a set of traffic lights and even though hot wouldn't run on the throttle and required the choke to start? ??? Thought that it might be vapourisation as we were up at 23°+ today, but the problem persisted. So, nothing for it, Kat went for a run, whilst I awaited rescue! :( I decided to investigate further and opened the slide whilst gawping down the inlet. Lo and behold the needle sat in the main jet! :o ::) So, off with the carb top and pull the slide out and found that the needle circlip had chewed the needle groove and also worn so that it wouldn't grip the needle. Amal MKII 2932, with less than 2,500 miles under the belt! :( Fitted spare carb needle and circlip after recovery home and put 35 miles on the old bird tonight, nae bother.
Shingles is not bad, taking anti-viral drug and now in my second week. For me, the internal pain behind my right shoulder blade is worse than any itching etc behind the blisters that are on the front. Ride the bike and it goes away! ;) ;D ;D Keep taking your #1 medicine! ;D Down to 5°C at night, with cold heavy dew and harr in the mornings, burnt off by 11:00am and heavy dew back down by 20:00hrs.
Simon, thank you for your contribution, it is the solvent and hygroscopic affects that I too think are the problem, not the running qualities of the fuel that some tweaks to carb adjustment cannot sort out. After all, post WWII, apparently one of the fuels sold and was a mixture of alcohol and petrol and it was sold as a 'performance' petrol. I have seen at my local independent garage a forecourt list with manufacturers recommendations of the date from which machines are E10 compliant. Machines prior to the date are advised to use E5. For the 4 main Japanese manufacturers, the cut off date is ~1990.
A definitive list is available from the DVLA website at this link: Check-Vehicle-E10-Petrol (https://www.gov.uk/check-vehicle-e10-petrol)
Reputable carb rebuild kits will maybe at a premium soon and the kits from NRP carbs have proved reliable: NRP_carb_spares (http://www.nrp-carbs.co.uk/index.htm)
Our Far Eastern "trading partners" may try flogging all sorts of rubbish, like their fuel filters. Viton, rather than nitrile et al, appears to be reliable in resisting E10.
I hope this helps.
Good health, Bill
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Hi Bill, sounds like you have caught the shingles in time with rapid treatment, here's hoping for a quick and full recovery. i remember, when i were nowt but a nipper, and our family transport was a 1936 Sumbeam 600 with a double adult sidecar (i looked up the reg on the dvla and the old girl is still going) ... my father insisted on National Benzole which he thought had an alcohol component, and then a shot of RedeX UCL (an additional penny on the bill) ... funny how you remember these things.
i have just put a pair of Amal 2932's through my ultrasonic cleaner, no sign of degradation on the needle grooves, but these were off my old track day bike, and not used in the last 10 years. still, will have to keep my eye on them once they are in regular use.
actually got some sun this morning, but at 15c not going to overheat any time soon.
shiny side up old bean
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National Benzole did indeed contain ethanol (or ethyl alcohol as it was then known) as did Cleveland Discol which was widely available in the North East - said to be up to 20% ethanol. My dad reckoned it was great stuff and never had problems with it.
I'm still firmly of the opinion that the issue is not ethanol but is the plethora of weird substances that are now added to petrol. I think it's these that have the solvent effect etc. As regards carb parts, I put various old Amal bits in a jamjar of E5 and left them for a year. There was no corrosion or deposits on any.
These are the bits after a year:
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/ethanol/IMG_4776.jpg)
Afterwards I put some water in the same jamjar so that it sank to the bottom and left it for another few months. The result:
(http://www.iansoady.org.uk/ethanol/IMG_6046.jpg)
The crusty deposits appeared only on the parts in the water - note the carb slide which was half in water half petrol.
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A nice wee experiment Ian, thank you for posting.
I also like your choise of jam, very tasty! ;)
All the best, Bill
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interesting test Ian, all good info to add to our collective 'thumper knowledge base'
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Hello All,
just watched this video
Quite interesting.
I might have an experiment myself.
Cheers,
Richard.
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How interesting....a group of us have just completed a 500 mile tour of North Wales in classic cars...the first fill up was with E5, with no issues, the second was with E10 [no E5 available] and a few were complaining of pinking....of which I was one in the Lotus Elan....the last fill up was with Shell super E5, but I had to give the car back shortly after, so I don't know if the pinking stopped....I'll forward the link to the others.
Thanks.
Dave.
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so Dave, lets get this straight ..... you know someone who will lend you a lotus elan for a spin out on a 'fuel test' ??????