Thumper Club Forum
Technical => Bike Problems/Questions => Topic started by: boze on April 04, 2007, 10:35:14 PM
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the saga continues.....ive replaced the accelerator pump diaphragm etc and took the bike out today, after about 45mins (long enough to get bloody miles away from home) the useless piece of shit broke down again!! thats twice in two weeks!!
it just cut in and out a couple times then died, i stopped and kicked her again and she started but when i tried to rev her she just died again. this happene a few times.
im at my wits end and considering scrapping her as i need something reliable to get me to work!!
i dunno what to do, i spose ill strip the carb again tomorrow and see whats happening..
any ideas?
damo
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Was running well and then died, would start but not run cleanly - sounds to me like you are getting dirt into the main or needle jet area. When you take the carb off - keep it upright and carefully remove the float bowl, see if there is any dust, grit etc in the bottom. Yoou may even see what looks like a small or some small transparet ball bearings - if you do there is a small amount of water in the carb. What would happen is the water would eventually get drawn up into the jet where it blocks the flow, engine dies, bike will start - on pilot, but not pull on to the main. After a bit the water falls out and the bike runs well then it all happens again. Have a look in the fuel tank - is there any evidence of rust? If so get a cheap in line fuel filter and chop this into the fuel line or lines.
If the accelerator pump rubber had corroded some of this may be floating about in there too, it only take a tinly little bit of crud to block the jet. Cleaning it all out, try and pick up a can of squirty air - like an aerosol with no charge of chemical etc - often found in electonics shops, this will allow you to direct a good blast the wrong way down the jets - if something is stuck it has gone in from the 'bottom' and you want to blow it out if possible from the top so as to not jam it in more.
I have had carbs that have given me no end of grief, and in the end I have gotten out a bit of dust or grit so small it is barly there and - mmmm bike ran nice.
Mind could be wrong
Oh - and when yo have the carb apart you are a surgeon - so get your tools spotless claen before you start, ger the outside fo the carb spotless before it comes off and work in a good light on a clean surface
R
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Is this a multi cylinder bike? It a bit strange that all carbs would be so far out as to stop it. Are you sure you getting fuel down from the tap.?
Ken
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Aye damo,
I'd go along with Rog and also take the tank off, give it a good sluice around and throw the contents away and start with some fresh petrol.
Check that your tank breather is working.
If the inside of the tank is corroding, consider using tank sealer to stop further rusting and general nastiness getting in the 'petrol' or whatever the distillate is these days! At least a malt is still a malt!! ;-)
Frost's : www.frost.co.uk
They are as good a place as any to get a tank sealer kit from, although it may not be the cheapest and others may chip in here with alternative suppliers and prices.
If after all this, you still think you need to punt it, let us know. Somebody may have a home for the old war horse!
Regards, Bill
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Having spent a couple of hours cleaning the gunge out of the fuel tap on the K4 - I would suggest taking the fuel tap off the tank and soaking it over night. Seems modern petrol is not like the stuff of old.
On which pint I have an old petrol can of Jen's grandad's. Now he died ummm 15 years ago, I picked the can up after her gran died 5 years ago. Gave it a shake today - meaning to put some parrafin or the like in it to see if it leaked, and it sloshed. Opened it and lovely petrol smell. K4 even ran on it. So there we have some 15 plus vintage petrol.... Whereas the modern stuff that had been in there about 2 years had turned to gunge - must be more volatile or some like
R
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right im off today and am gonna get battered into it...
ken: its an sr500 thumper
rog and bill: im gonna strip the carb today, plus ill drain the fuel, check the fuel tap and clean ou the tank, ill let ya know how i get on.
cheers
damo
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If you're not going to coat the tank (petseal, etc. ) then you can't guarantee that you have got all the nasty little bits of rust out.
An in-line filter is a cheap and easy way to ensure that any crud doesn't get into the carb.
Cheers and good luck
GC
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In regard to water in the fuel: it's extremely common, and easily cured by adding alcohol or a marine additive like Fuel Set to every tankfull. Do this and you'll have no more rust. Pure methanol or ethanol seem to work best.
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Adding methanol or ethanol - yup will absorb the water pretty well down to about 70% alcohol equ. However, despite the addition of ethanol and methanol to petrol for sale, doing it your self is technically strictly illegal... ho humm whyat they dont know wont hurt them
R
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im gunna cry.
how much would i get for a 1980 sr500 in need of a new carb?
damo
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I could send this onto the uk for postage cost if its of any use and the vendor wont send it to the uk.
http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300097082785
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What is the problem with the carb Damo?
I must learn to look on other eBay sites - or at least the French / German etc names for things
R
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Just a thought, but aging Yam's are notorious for developing intermittant shorts in the kill switch. This can also cause the symptoms you describe. Check by disconnecting the single wire going to the kill switch. I don't think my SR (or any) had a clutch or a sidestand cutout, but if yours does, same goes for them.
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Aye damo,
Whats up wi the carb?
Bill
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ive stripped the carb 4 times in the last 2 weeks, twice today, the bike starts then after a wee minute it judders like it cuts in and out makin the bike jerk then it stops. if i kick it, it will start again but dies after a few seconds.
it has a new air filter (but its not a performance filter, just stock) new spark plug (once again its definately the right one) and today i drained all the petrol out, cleaned the filter in the tank, flushed the tank with clean petrol then dried it totally with a hairdryer to make sure there wasnt any water in it, it still does the same thing. i also stripped the carb again and cleaned it thoroughly. no dirt etc in it. ive also tried adjusting the air/fuel mixture but to no avail.
its as if it starts to fuel properly then something happens and the fuel supply is cut short. ive checked all the diaphragms in the carb and theyre sorted, the accelerator pump is also functioning correctly.
im really at my wits end here, i need it to get to work on, its sooooo important.
it sounds to me like a fuelling problem but i dont know what else i can do, ive had a few bikes before which ive stripped etc but im by no means a pro, im only 24 and you guys have a much greater understanding of these problems, does anyone have any ideas as to what i should do? should i get a new carb? should i take it to a garage (with all the cash i dont have)? should i sell it and buy a plastic rocket with wheels? should i sell it and buy a skateboard? :(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(:(
damo
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One thing you could try is check the flow of fuel to the carb. The float bowl should have a drain screw at the bottom and a pipe attached for the overflow. After it dies, open the drain screw to see if any fuel flows out.
Have you checked the breather in the tank filler cap ?. Open it after the bike has died, do you get a sound of air being sucked into the tank ?.
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It still sounds like a fuel prob to me, but picking up on the above disabling the kill switch - not when you are riding it mind - to remove that possibility.
How did you clean through the jets? - I am not desperate to be right - but starting - running a bit and then dying sounds like a blockage getting into a jet - or possibly an air leak - not running off choke? Dunno guessing.
As to buying a new carb. IF it is the carb we should be able to get it running all be it roughly on a worn carb. If we are then sure it is no the electrics cutting out - coil losing it when it gets warm? I dunno. If we can pin it down to the carb, then get a new un. BUT if it is not the carb you are out of pocket.
Does it start and tick over - chug chug chug, and then die when you open her up a bit? Or is it all OK until = pop she stops? - Trying to get a feeling for when it happens.
Just as a side note - I have had the K4 carbs off and cleaned them through a couple of times over the last few days - stood and full of gunge. keeps blocking up again as another little bit of gunge comes lose and jams in there - she is now taking throttle - and the slides are starting to jam but that is different. I know how you feel - if this is a carbie prob she is being a bugger.
More detail on what happens when she starts and then what occurs.
Best wishes - the Roger 14lb sledge does not work BTW
R
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Actually, following on from Steve , just take the petrol cap off and see if it runs. Have a spare spark plug ready and as soon as it stops see if there is a spark on the outside of the engine with the spare [not bothering to take off the one that's screwed in]
If the spark isn't there at once
The coil/condensor could be breaking down
Narrow the plug gap and try again
If the condensor is breaking down you will get a weak yellowish spark [or nothing]. It may spark and then break down as soon as it warms with the current, then it cools and uh there's a spark again!
Check the points aren't sticking open or arcing onto the cover.
If theres always a spark then see if someone has a carb you can try out, just to make sure it is the carb.
If you have a slide carb get the carb cleaned professionally [£15 or so] to make sure the pilot circuit isn't blocked. I had that trouble and a clean fixed it.
PS Never use champion plugs, I've had duff brand new ones
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One more thing
I sold a nice PE 175 to a really solid bloke and started getting e's about was the motor alright when I had it? The bike was cutting in and out and making no power
After some weeks the reason became apparent. the guy had taken off the tank cap rubber grommet thingermyjig whatsit and parked it under the seat over the airbox intake...and put the seat back on.
You haven't got a rag or anything blocking the air intake?
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Steve: the carb is definitely getting fuel, the bowl is full when i take it off. also the tank is breathing fine, no vacuum here.
Rog: when she dies it doesn't seem to have any correlation to what the throttle is doing, she has died when Ive been revving and when shes been idling.
i cant work on her till Monday as I'm gettin shafted at work but on Monday I'm going to have another bash at cleaning out the carb except this tI'me im going down to my mates work as theres a chem-clean there. basically is a barrel of kerosene with a filter and pump in it which pumps kerosene through a hose with a brush on the end and into a metal basin with a plug in it on top of the barrel. would it be worth getting one of these?: http://cgi.ebay.com/Yamaha-SR500-SR-500-2J4-2J2-carbureto-full-Kit_W0QQitemZ300098717363QQihZ020QQcategoryZ10490QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem just seeing as how its such an old carb, or should i clean it out first?
thank you so much for all your help!!! this is one hell of a community and i look forward to getting out on a run with ya all sometime!!
damo
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MM - I would be a little careful of using a parts cleaner - do nto want to shift any grot out of the cleaner into the carb, but if it is fresh and new - OK - as for cleaning other parts, cases etc - great.
Champion plugs failing from new - have had the same with NGK and ND - it is not unknown on any make I understand.
This problem is a cycling thing - runs Ok and then dies (sorry thinking out loud here) but when it is running you seem to be well made up with the bike - so we know it is a problem that can be cured - bike runs fine sometimes - and you want it cured - you like the bike when she is going.
It dies when it has been running for a bit - whether it is ticking over or being revved - suggesting carb picking up dirt - would cause the engine to run rough on the jet that is blocking or stop, but would not overly affect jetting away from this - ie if it is a blocking pilot jet, revving it up on to the needle or main would loose the problem. If the engine is just dying and not revving itself up then dying this suggests that it is not fuel starvation - the bike wil pick up revs and run quite well as the float bowl empties and the bike runs lean.
It is occurring when the engine warms up, this has got me leaning towards electrics now - but I would still give that carb another clean -
Please wait until others have confirmed this. Looking at the wiring diags on the following web site, your bike runs a CDI with spark info coming from the AC generator (alternator) so there must be the ign circ coil and a pulser coil or the like in there. The CDI is fed 12V DC through the B/W wire, the B wire is the earth and the O wire is the low tension to the coil. We can exclude a lot of the electrics from any test (this is the bit that needs confirmed before we cook your CDI) by chopping in a wire from the battery +ve to the B/W wire to the CDI - Thus if the vibration or what ever are causing the ign switch to cut out, kill switch etc, this will cut them out. Of course you will not be able to stop the engine once it has started unless you pull the wire from the +ve pole. - Personally I do not think the problem is in any of the switches - but I am often wrong. There are then three potential culprits. The CDI, the coil and the ign trigger in the alternator. I would start looking at the one one most liable to fail - the coil. Can you lay your hands on a CDI suited coil? Does not have to be the right one for the bike, so long as it is from a bike (car ones tend to be too big and hungery) - jury rig it to the CDI LT output a good solid earth and the plug. - You do not want to be touching it when it is up and running just in case. See if the engine will run up and if it does will it stop running again. If it is now fine - the issue is your coil, if it is not you may have two duff coils or the bike may not like the one you are using.
Jumping about a bit here... On the web site below it has the test resistance for the charging coil and the pulser coil, if you have a test meter you could check these when the bike is cold and again just after it has failed - there should be some difference between the two sets of readings - resistance changes with temp - but the magnitude of change should be pretty much the same for all elements - if not - if you get an open circuit, or even total resistance - this would / could be the issue. Ditto the same for the coil if you cannot lay your hands on an alternative.
Probably late to the ball but have been looking at this http://www.slash5.net/sr500.html
Oh I would look to check resistances etc first - before I start poking wires in trying to short out the ignition switch etc - I mullered a Renault EMU by connecting up the wrong wire - right colour, wrong wire...
Hope some ideas help - kinda difficult being here in South Wales...
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did i mention also that when i hear her beginning to fade if i rev her she sometimes picks up and sometimes just dies quicker?
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It obviously isn't fuel, so it's electrical. It works fine till it gets hot, so it's coil insulation. Two coils that make the bike run are the ignition coil and the spark sensor down by the flywheel.
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ok i was at it for a short while today, put my new indicators on...gotta make myself feel like im makin progress...
i disconnected the kill switch and it still does it so i can rule that out.
ive never really had any experience with bike electronics as ive never had any problems with them. please excuse my ignorance but Rog: The CDI is the black boxy thing mounted under the tank on the frame yeah? what are the coil and the ignition trigger?
GB500nz: what are the ignition coil and spark sensors? what do they look like and where is the igniton coil?
Ill hopefully get the carb cleaned again tonight and ill try and make a start on the electrics but i really am quite crap with electrics so ill probably fry something and make it worse.....
damo
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Right, its only been 20mins or so since my last post but ive been thinking about this.
I need transport to get to work and im honestly thinking about selling her. I cant spare the time to fix her, the train fares are killing me and i often start work before the first train in the morning so my missus has had to run me into work, this is not feasible to continue as she has uni and work herself etc and its an hour drive to work.
In all seriousness how much do people think id get for her? Does anyone want to make me an offer?
having had the engine apart, the cylinder, piston and valves are in excellent condition, the bike has only done 46000 kilometres, new gaskets, air filter, oil filter, fork seals+oil, indicators, spark plug. The tyres have an excellent amount of tread on them and she also has 11months tax and MOT.
She is a beautiful bike but i just cant spare the time to troubleshoot the problem and if i can fix her im going to sell her anyway as i am looking to buy a 600 or a 650.
This is breaking my heart but i need to be able to get to work.
Im going to have one last try to sort her out tonight but in the meantime please let me know what you think.
regards
Damien
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Hi Damo
Two thoughts - chasing after a problem can be soul destroying and maybe getting shot of her would be the best - but she will probably be worth 2X as much running than as she is.
Two - you may get the same or another problem with another bike. (May not mind, just know I hever have a car that does not go wrong)
OK - When you fiollow the HT lead back from the spark plug it comes to a (usually) black palstic encased thing bolted to the frame, this not only has the HT lead running into it but one or two standard sized wires too. This is the 'coil'. This has a low tension side (12V) and a HT side (20,000+ volts) When the 12 V power is switched off suddenly the induction causes a suddern burst of KV from the other - which passes to earth as the spark across the plug - can also be done with a suddern burst on the LT side - like from a CDI unit. As this coil gets hotter - with use - the insulation on either the LT (12V) or HT side can break down - usually the HT side as it has a bigger job holding in the KV (kilovolts). If you follow the normal sized wire back you will come to a black box thingy under the tank - this usually has two bundle of wire going to it, one side is the output to the coil - switches the 12V side oat the right time to make the spark, there will also be a 12V feed - this is what is killed by the kill switch (usually). The other bundle of wires head off into the cover on one side of the crank cases - to the alternator. The CDI gathers electricity from here and also information as to where in the cycle the piston is. This is done by a small coil - often sat outside the alternator, but sometimes in the alternator and a small magnet set on the alternator rotor, each time the magnet passes the little coil a small induction charge (burst of electricity) is sent to the CDI - the magic in the CDI then decides when to make the spark plug fire. The little coil triggered by this small magnet is the trigger coil or pulser coil.
The think about electrics - and I am not the best sparky person by far - is that they are logical. They are pretty basic physics. They just frighten because you cannot see what is happening, they can hurt if you grab the wrong bit, and they can be annoying because there is so much of them all tangled together in the wiring loom.
Hope this helps.
You say that you can get the bike back when she starts to die if youo rev her hard - does this get her back for a time or just whilst you are revving?
R
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"You say that you can get the bike back when she starts to die if youo rev her hard - does this get her back for a time or just whilst you are revving?"
it doesnt always get her back...sometimes it seems to have no effect, sometimes it feels similar to when shes really cold and you open the throttle only for her to die.
im gonna go try not to electrocute myself.
Damo
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Arrrrrgrgggg - just want to stand there with the bike and give you a hand rather than all this. I think you are saying that she never comes back fully on song when you rev her just as she is dying. Mmmm - is sounding electrical - but was sounding carb, mind it could be both.
R
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yeah, basically if shes dying theres not a lot you can do to stop her, revving will occasionally rescue her but not for long.
im way too tired now, mentally and physically to tackle it.
im toying with the idea of taking her to a garage to sort out but that would go against my "no garages" rule....plus it would have to be a last resort as im so ridiculously tight on cash.
*sigh*
damo
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Aye damo,
Garage will spend a lot of time going over where you've already been and cost you.
May I suggest you start with the ignition coil under tank with thick black wire to plug. Check that the thin wire going into your coil from the loom hasn't broken the insulation where it enters the coil body. Sally had, and would short out for no apparent reason. Cleaned up the wires and surrounding areas with brake cleaner, then sealed the whole lot with Araldite. No more shorts!
Replace your ignition coil with an ignition coil off known runner and see how you go.
Other bits are more expensive or involve diving into the 'guts' of the old ****!!!!!&& cantankerous one. I understand the frustration (Ducati single electrics!), you aren't the first and won't be the last. AAAAAaaaaaahhhhhhhh!
Get a good nights kip, Bill
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Aye damo,
I've been doing a bit of digging (it's my job!).
You said in your initial mail when you joined this site you had an "SR500 1980 imported from SA", correct?
This would be an SR500 1979 - 1983 Model (2J4), according to the Weemoto site [http://shop.wemoto.com/index.dyn]
What I didn't realise was that the 'Old Warhorse' if it is still standard should run a set of points, condenser and ignition coil. Have you got this model and do you have these bits fitted?
If this is the case then a condenser from Halfords or your local friendly garage (~£5-00) may prove to be the problem and should be easily replaced. A clean up and adjustment of the points until you can get a new set would also not go amiss. These goodies are in stock at Weemoto as I have just checked their site. They are good and quick, as I get bits for the BROS from them.
Please let us know, I might be talking ball cocks if an after market ignition set up has been fitted.
Hope this helps, Bill
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yes its completely factory original, so i can get a condenser from halfords? is that the same as the cdi?
sorry for the confusion but where exactly is the condenser?
i reckon ive got points, think ive seen em at some point lol!
and ive bought a few things off wemoto too, great stuff!! so basically what exactly do i go into halfords or a garage and ask for?
damo
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Damo
The condenser is a little cylindrical thing attached somewhere between your points and your coil. You shouldn't have any bother getting hold of points and a condenser for your SR500. They're pretty cheap too.
Dave B
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I've just remembered lawn mower runs for a while cuts a 1/4 of the lawn then dies, and wont start till its cold, it has no relation to the throttle setting of the mower. Put it away last year intending to put new condensor in it as I have already rebuilt the carb to get rid of cr*p. Bu**er lawn now needs cutting and mower needs fixing.
It don't half sound familiar boze. If it is the condensor at least it is probably the cheapest thing to fix on the SR.
Good luck
beeman
Ps Can you tell I'm bored and can't go out to play, due to needing the proximity of WC
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Damo
The condenser is a little cylindrical thing attached somewhere between your points and your coil. You shouldn't have any bother getting hold of points and a condenser for your SR500. They're pretty cheap too.
Dave B
would that be the coil in the cdi or is that the coil inside the engine?
also i remembered that fuel comes out of the overflow pipe on the carb quite often, its been happening since before the problems im having now so i dont know if its related...
damo
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also i remembered that fuel comes out of the overflow pipe on the carb quite often, its been happening since before the problems im having now so i dont know if its related...
Thats not going to help matters, not convinced it could kill the engine but you could be flooding the engine, does the bike smell of petrol after its stopped on you ?
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Thats not going to help matters, not convinced it could kill the engine but you could be flooding the engine, does the bike smell of petrol after its stopped on you ?
not really, it only ever really happens if im kicking her and she aint starting or if shes sitting idling for ages.
damo
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Aye damo,
Your going to have to get the 'Manual' out, you said you had one!
Condenser will either sit beside the ignition coil under the petrol tank or next to the points beneath a cover on the side of the motor. 'Electrical System' 'Ignition' is the bit you need to look at.
Weemoto have the individual parts listed with images on the parts list specific to the SR500 79-83 (2J4), so you can see what they look like. Total cost about £12-00 inc P&P.
As for the 'piddling' from the carb, with three diaphrams and at least two needles there are plenty of options for a little perished rubber to stop you playing! ;-) It would sound as though either the float needle or float in the carb are sticking or worn and not sealing properly, when there is a lack of demand for petrol from the tank. Hence the flooding. To see a full repair kit for the carb go here [Ebay: 300098717363].
Finally another possible is that the insulation on a coil within the alternator is breaking down and shorting to earth once hot. Whilst it is a b***** it is not insurmountable and a re-wound and insulated stator (techy term, its the bit with all the alternator coils mounted on it) would cure this. It would involve a strip down of the side of the motor, not a crankcase splitting scenario!
With the SR500, think Japanese BSA B33! They aren't bad and with a production run from 1974 - 2000 spares aren't difficult even if you have to go to Germany (they luv them) for the bits.
Persevere my friend.
Regards, Bill
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Is this points or CDI? I thought we had a black box on the fram about the size of a fag packet - Nippondenso with a part number starting 70000, in which case there will not be a condenser? - If there are points and a condenser there will not be a pulser coil and a CDI?
Which do we have anyone - all the wiring diags for a SR I have seen are CDI units
R
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Aye Rog,
From date of manufacture 1980 and a personal import from SA to boot, go to Weemoto and select those details gives Model 2J4. Lists points etc in spares list for this model.
Damo has Haynes manual I believe, so should be able to locate model number and other relevant 'techy data bitties' and where on machine these things are located.
All we can do is stand back and see what the messenger brings.
Bit like flying a ROV over a wellhead when the lights go out or the camera goes 'blink'! What wellhead? Are you sure? Beam me up Scotty!!!
See, lost the plot again. Need a dram afore 'Shut down'! ;-)
Will damo find a condensor or a 'black box'? Ring William Hill! Beats all soaps into a cocked hat.
Ta ra, Bill
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righty, pictures a gogo:
this sucker is what i think is the CDI, wires from the alternator go into it and the ht lead comes out.
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k62/saltmason/DSC00563.jpg)
and this is a pic of the electrics page in the manual....
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k62/saltmason/DSC00566.jpg)
are we sure now it isnt the carb? just so i can rule it out in ma head....
best regards
damo
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Hi Damo -
The pic is the coil - HT coil - what makes the spark plug spark.
The relevent bit from the manual suggests CDI
I have a nippondenso CDI from sommat else loose in the shed - I will put a pic of it up tomorrow and a set of points if that helps.
Sure it is not the carb - no, but we do seem to have hammered that one - I am a little worried about this flooding of the carb - but that may be something totally different.
R
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Hey Damo
That looks like an ignition coil to me. If that is connected directly to the alternator then you have a CDI. No points or condenser.
Does this look like your setup? Its from a 1980 SR500G
(http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n305/pigafetta/yamaha_electrical_1_sr500_1980_bigy.gif)
The CDI unit is part no. 1 in the image. I'm not really helping, am I.
I'll get my coat...
Dave B
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this here is my ignition setup:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k62/saltmason/DSC00568.jpg)
and this is the ignition coil:
(http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k62/saltmason/DSC00565.jpg)
it says in the manual that "..the sr500 is equipped with a fully transistorized ignition system. This solid state system, unlike conventional ignition systems, does not use breaker points..."
so where does that leave us? ive got instructions here as to how to test the ignition coil, but if it was b***ered then surely it wouldnt even start? or are we thinking along the lines of a loose wire? a loose wire is gonna be hard to find as you can see in the picture the wiring is rather manky :(
damo
ps. im going to buy one of those complete carb rebuild kits on friday when i get paid just so i can 100% rule out the carb.
::EDIT:: is this too good to be true? http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=004&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=140098719925&rd=1&rd=1 theyre normally about 40 quid...
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Hi Damo
Yup that pic is of an ignition coil, and it is a CDI suited coil - says so on the side - so somewhere you should have something that looks a little like
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w230/Shaftoflame/Junk/DSCF0085.jpg)
You should not have one of there anywhere (points)
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w230/Shaftoflame/Junk/DSCF0090-1.jpg)
But if you have you will have a CDI suited coil fitted to a points ignition - which is not a problem, and you should have a condenser some where - it is the little cylinder on the end of this coil, often they are in with the points.
(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w230/Shaftoflame/Junk/DSCF0091.jpg)
Hope this helps.
As to the coil not working - sometimes they work fine for a while and then the insulation inside them breaks down as they heat up etc. Hence no problems when the engine is cold but then when it gets hot - phut
R
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so is this the cdi?(http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w230/Shaftoflame/Junk/DSCF0085.jpg)
so where do i go from here? ive gone and gotten myself extremely confused...
is that carb kit any good?(the link in my last message?)
damo
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You do what I advised several days ago.
You start the thing up and when it stops you check if you have a spark with the spare spark plug enabling you to do this quickly before the electrics have a chance to cool and start working again.
Don't think Haynes is God. I once spent a whole afternoon trying to undo a nut that turned out to be left hand thread. Haynes said it was right ie normal, which it was on some models.
As far as I can make out you have yet to check if you have a spark. That's the first thing you do, before you start taking the carb apart. Intermittant engine stopping faults are nearly always electrical, carb faults tend to be related to certain throttle openings.
Since you have taken the carb apart several times you may well now have several faults you didn't originally have.
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In the past I've ruled out electrical problems in the following way
- But a cheap 12v or self powered iginition strobe.
- Put sensor around HT lead and strap up the trigger so its always on and attach to the handlebars so you can see it in your peripheral vision (not so it blinds you !!!)
- The strobe should flash with the ignition as you ride along.
- When the bike starts to cut out watch the strobe, is it flashing normally ?. If so then its fuel problems
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You do what I advised several days ago.
You start the thing up and when it stops you check if you have a spark with the spare spark plug enabling you to do this quickly before the electrics have a chance to cool and start working again.
Don't think Haynes is God. I once spent a whole afternoon trying to undo a nut that turned out to be left hand thread. Haynes said it was right ie normal, which it was on some models.
As far as I can make out you have yet to check if you have a spark. That's the first thing you do, before you start taking the carb apart. Intermittant engine stopping faults are nearly always electrical, carb faults tend to be related to certain throttle openings.
Since you have taken the carb apart several times you may well now have several faults you didn't originally have.
i totally forgot about that!! im gonna go check.... be back in an hour or so...
im compiling a list of things to check and how to check them lol
any more suggestions?
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Yeh Steve's system of checking electricals seems brilliant, but he might need to tell you where you can get a cheap strobe from, and exactly how you wire it up. I once took my car carb apart several times when I was in Spain, which was always fraught since if I dropped a part I was buggered, not speaking the language and all. After about the 5th dismantleing I checked the points, recently serviced with the assurence that they wouldn't need adjusting for months. They were almost closed, an adjust later and end of "fuelling" problems. It looks like your bike doesn't have points but a weak spark means that as the loading on the engine varies due to opening the throttle at low revs on a hill for instance, then so does that crap sparks' ability to ignite the fuel., hence the engine will run intermittantly. Coils are cheap
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i did what cloggy said and im still getting a nice blue spark......
im going to get a carb kit to replace all my jets and seals etc anyway so would you suggest a new ignition coil too?
damo
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Ive used one of these in the past
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WATSON-STROBE-IGNITION-TIMING-LIGHT-BMC-MINI-COOPER-MG_W0QQitemZ300100177425QQihZ020QQcategoryZ30921QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItem
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Ive used one of these in the past
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/WATSON-STROBE-IGNITION-TIMING-LIGHT-BMC-MINI-COOPER-MG_W0QQitemZ300100177425QQihZ020QQcategoryZ30921QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItem
will that be easy enough to adapt for the bike?
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Yep you attach one end of the lead to you plug and the other to your HT lead by pushing it into the plug cap. It is self powered so no need to connect anything to the battery.
These are pretty cheap and cheerful too
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/TIMING-STROBE-LIGHT-12V-MECHANICS_W0QQitemZ130099916645QQihZ003QQcategoryZ30917QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Run the leads to your battery and clip the sensor round the HT lead, no need to insert anything into the line. Would need some tape around the trigger to keep it on.
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could i use a neon tester screwdriver like the ones electricians have? or would the strobe light be better?
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You can get a neon flashing spark plug cap that goes in place of the normal ht cap and flashes when theres a ignition event. Theyre cheap and nasty tat and I wouldnt run with one full time, but its a quick and dirty diagnostic tool...
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Part of the idea of teh strobe is so you can see what is happening whilst its dying, if you use a scredriver you have to kick the bike over and attach the screwdriver at the same time. That said I recently bought a voltage detector which you could tape to the HT lead. Is that what you mean by a neon tester ?
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Part of the idea of teh strobe is so you can see what is happening whilst its dying, if you use a scredriver you have to kick the bike over and attach the screwdriver at the same time. That said I recently bought a voltage detector which you could tape to the HT lead. Is that what you mean by a neon tester ?
its just a screwdriver with a light inside it, rated to 30amps. my mate suggested it to me, was wondering if it would save me some cash.
if not ill see if i can borrow a strobe from a local garage, if not then ill have to buy one :(
right, the list of things for me to do and what to do depending on what happens...
1)buy a carburettor rebuild kit (the O rings and seals are starting to look a bit shabby now anyways and it cant hurt)
2)check the timing with a strobe, if its ok then the carb kit should sort it, if its not ok then a new ignition coil? new CDI?
3)assuming the bike runs nicely, one by one visit you all and buy you all a pint :)
D
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One of these is what I mean if it helps any :-
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Neon-Plug-cap-Xsport-pit-mini-moto-scooter-thumpstar-50_W0QQitemZ230116195765QQihZ013QQcategoryZ10460QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Cheaper than a strobe and your less likely to electrocute yourself with a HT shock from one of the connections as you ride along, which is what always happened to me when I used to try the strobe method.
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right, im gonna have to hold all this just now. i want to check that my bike definately doesdnt have points first because ive just noticed that my extremely worn workshop manual is for the '77-'79 models.......mine is a '80......
ill get back to ya all this weekend, i feel like a proper idiot now. :(
it could very well have point and a condenser and they could be the problem, should i still do the old strobe test?
mr fluffy: i wont be riding the bike when i test the timing, just standing beside her as she idles and ill give her a rev - if i rode her id have to push her home again when she dies and as you all know these old bikes aint light!!!!
damo
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Back to the CDI question - yup that pic is the CDI. The pic you put up is the coil - it says CDI on the side because it is a coil suited to CDI.
As for the pint - I think we should be buying for you - we have yet to sort the problem...
Best wishes
R
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Aye Rog and damo,
Sorry for having thrown the points, condenser, red herring into the ring! BLUSH!
Pleased to see that it is CDI as originaly described.
I hope the dogged persistance resolves this 'War & Peace' saga.
All the best, Bill
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Hey Bill - where abouts are you - my neice is coming up to the Mull later this month for a Uni dig and I want to know if she needs armour to protect against midges yet?
R
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they arent out yet where i am, south west of glasgow in a town called largs...we get it quite bad too!!
damo
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right, i got me a strobe....
ill let you all know the outcome this afternoon....
damo
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ok, today was a very strange day....
i got a strobe from my mate the other day and went round to work on the bike today. i hooked up the strobe etc and when she started spluttering the strobe was also cutting in and out so i thought "right, it must be an electrical fault" so i went to annoy the (nearly)father in law for a multimeter and set about the electrics disconnecting things and reconnecting them in a sort of "of course i know what im doing" way.
once i had "worked" on the electrics i started her up expecting yet another quick death but wait? why isnt she dying? is she toying with me? this isnt fair! dont play with my emotions! she sat and ran fine for 15 minutes so, and it might have been the exhaust fumes in the garage clouding my judgement, i decided to take her out for a run....
shes kept in a garage at the bottom of a big hill so i thought id take her up and down the hill, so if she dies there no drama involved in the push home, and shes running sweet as a nut!!! not even a little blip or falter whatsoever!! i was running her for about 30 minutes up and down the hill, around the block, getting through the gears, revving her right up etc!!
the problem is that im now afraid to take her on the 1hour ride to work incase she breaks down as i have absolutely no idea what i did to fix her and it may be an intermittent thing thats gonna crop up again! id rather have found out the exact problem and had to spend £100 to fix her than have this on my hands!
i reckon ill join the AA, get the train to work tomorrow then take her out a big run tomorrow after work to see what happens....but i dont know if i can rely on her now as ive lost my faith in her :(
any other ideas?
damo
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Bad contact, I'll bet you a beer ;) You've taken off leads and re-fitted them properly, a formerly intermittent bad connection is now connected...
Were I in your shoes I'd get that AA card and ride it. If you are worried, or the symptoms present again then take all the leads off one by one and give them a good clean up and refit making sure they are snug clean and secure...
All imho of course!!
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Things like crimps and bullet connectors are a right pain once they start getting a bit old and oxidising. You get intermittent faults all over the place. Cutting the connectors off and soldering the wires up works well. I've just been through all that on my CD175. If you dont want to solder, just spendan afternoon with a bit of emery cloth getting all your connectors nice and clean.
It sounds like you've got to the bottom of it though. AA card sounds like a top idea. I should probably do that too.
Dave B
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And a good dose of WD40 over the lot - or vaseline on all the connectors once they are pushed together - helps keep oiuyt the damp and corrosion.
Damo, whilst I would love to know what was wrong I am really hoping that this is problem solved, that you have a far better understanding of the intimate nature of your two wheeled lady, and that the love affair will burn anew - mind if itr does the two legged lady friend may complaining about the relative priorities of the love affairs.
R
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haha, im gona go a big run tomorrow and see what happens (after i join the aa).
my missus has started badgering me to sell her now shes running because shes "not reliable enough for you to commute on".
shes really not letting this one drop, i have the fear......
damo
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Tell her 50mpg and classic insurance = more cash for her and the house. Reliable will come cheap once she's running right, commuting by bike = shorter journey times so more time to spend with her, more pleasant commute = happier Damo = nicer to swmbo... ;)
no......?
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I use CRC Marine 6-66 on all my contacts and no more problems. Soldered connectors will corrode away quickly (I've done that!). If there's salt in the water anywhere nearby, you need marine-grade contact cleaner.
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So all my joints are going to fall apart? Brilliant. I hate soldering too but all my old connectors were really in a bad way. A bloke from the Honda owners club told me that was the way to go as long as I used a decent soldering gun. Well, its doing the job so far, I'll have to see what happens. Also, I've been told by a few people that WD40 on conectors is a big No-no. Dunno why though. Dunno much at all really.
Let's know how you get on after your big run, Damo.
Cheers,
Dave B
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Following a brief perusal of the inteweb, it seems that the WD40 on connectors thing is a massive can of worms. Some say it leaves a residue which attracts muck, which in turn attracts moisture. Others say not. I still don't know. And I don't care enough to spend any more time worrying about it. I really should get out more.
Dave B
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hose it with WD personally, it is a water dispersant so will do more harm than good imho, if you're worried about muck causing tracking etc then give it a hose down once a year (whether it needs it or not eh GC ;) )
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right, i was out on it this evening, didnt stray too far from home but still did about 35 miles and all seems to be well :)
she seems a bit louder than she used to but then its a diferent kind of sound, probably because the old exhaust gasket was smooshed to little bits!!
about two thirds of the way through the run she started feeling a bit funny and backfired a hell of a lot when i closed off the throttle, when i got home i noticed that the air/fuel screw on the carb had rattled itself off!!!!!! ive refitted it to the correct depth (1 7/8 turn) and plastered it with gaffa tape until i can get some superglue tomorrow!!!
so basically i think everything is ok, im still extremely nervous about her breaking down on the way to work tomorrow...
hopefully ill be able to make the rally in june but 'er indoors has been coniving with her dad and has produced pictures and adverts for a vfr750 she wants me to buy "when" i sell the sr500...i have to talk sense to her!!
damo
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If you have to use threadlock dont superglue it, youll never be able to adjust it again
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is there a certain product that is readily available?
damo
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A tiny spot of nail varnish might do the trick. I use it on the bridge adjusters on my guitar. If I ever need to adjust them it cracks off when you turn the screws but is strong enough not to vibrate loose. And wives have loads of it.
Dave B
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A tiny spot of nail varnish might do the trick. I use it on the bridge adjusters on my guitar. If I ever need to adjust them it cracks off when you turn the screws but is strong enough not to vibrate loose. And wives have loads of it.
Dave B
minted idea!! ive always used a tiny bit of enamel paint for my guitar bridge :)
damo
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i hope this is the end of the sr500 saga and would like to take this opportunity to thank each and every person who has helped me through it :)
i just noticed that this thread has more replies than any other thread in the whole forum!
i hope to meet a fair few of you on the scottish rally.
peace
Damo
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maybe im just looking for problems now but theres a rather annoying clicking from the cylinder head, i gather this is the rockers but should they be so loud?
peace
Damo
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Set the tappets[valve gear adjusters to dampen 'clicking'] and the cam chain tensioner by the book. Actually before you start adjusting them check if they are correct in the first place [appropriate feeler guage should slide smoothly between the gap, but not a thicker feeler guage] If they are correct or very slightly loose [say 15% over setting] LEAVE THEM ALONE
If it still sounds noisy don't worry. It's an air cooled 500cc single with only two valves so they are going to sound louder than itsy bitsy valves on a water cooled 4valve per head 4 3 or 2 cylinder machine.
Do not be tempted to set the tappets tighter[quieter] than the manual tells you. If you do the valves will burn out.
As for the carb idle adjustment don't set it rigidlyly at 7/8. that's your starting point, that's why it is adjustable.
With the bike ticking over make tiny adjustments each way, feeling if the bike is ticking over faster or slower. If it picks up speed then wind back the throttle stop until it slows down a bit . What you want to end up with is a slow even tickover that doesn't die if you open the the throttle quickly. Generally turning the idle mixture in richens the mixture [but only on the tickover /idle circuit. However if it is running happily LEAVE IT ALONE!
Also you might mention to your beloved that any problems you encounter on an aged VFR are going to make your present problems seem like a walk in the park/ and be very expensive.
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thanks for the tremendously perfect answer!!!!!
yeah ive told the missus how much harder things will be on a multi cylinder bike as ive only ever had singles!
one more quick question, are these bikes prone to overheating? i could feel the heat off mine through the petrol tank today! probably because the oil goes in the frame and the tank is wrapped around it! ive seen oil temp guages that screw straight into where the dipstick goes and ive also seen bolt on liquid coolers, are any of them reccomended?
regards
Damo
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www.yamaha-xt500.com will tell you about the aftermarket oilfeed line that feeds the exhaust rockers first instead of the stupid wrong way round standard set up. Your bike may already have it, it's a popular mod. Apart from that they don't have a rep for overheating, though if they are anything like my sp/dr 400 engines they will feel very hot.
I woudn't be tempted to use syntheticic oil though. I did and I've just installed a new piston rather earlier than normal. I think it picked up all the gunk hiding in odd corners, this being a wet sump motor it spashed up the barrel when I was rallying it over bumpy ground and wore it out. The oil control rings and the barrel were worn, the piston and compression rings seemed fine. About £180 that cost me, of course it may just have been that I was thrashing the nuts off it...
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i cant get on that site, they arent accepting new members.
sucks.
ill have a look around and see what i can find, the oil i got recently is semi synthetic, should i change it again and go back to non-synthetic?
Damo
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It's generally recommended that you DON'T replace mineral oil with (fully) synthetic oil, or vice versa. Semi synthetic however IS fine to use after mineral oil. I've been doing it for years on older bikes.
My XBR gets semi synthetic about every 1500 to 2000 miles (or it did while it was in use!!) as a precautionary measure against the quick wear cam followers and it was fine :)
If you choose to use normal mineral oil that's fine but many people recommend throwing the manufacturers recommended oil changes out the window and just changing it every 1000 miles, filters every second change...
Oil is cheap, engine work expensive ;)
Of course all of the above is IMHO and it's up to you what you choose to do!!
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Smudge is spot on. The Yamaha website has got bits open to non memebers. The oil line thread was recently one of them
www.thumpertalk.com will get you advice[vintage forum, there will already be a thread, do a search] also www.thumperstuff.com/srxttt.html will take you to the part you need and the dollar's dirt cheap at present. They might take a Western Union transfer if you want to risk it, I have in the past [though I got sent the wrong wheel, not from this mob though]
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sorry www.thumperstuff.com/SRXTTT.html in capitals
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Thread is hard to find, but here's what people say:
Yes. You come off the stock hard line (the one that goes to the intake side at the base of the motor). They make a kit what you get is a longer banjo bolt where the stock one is at you tie in the newbanjo bolt there.On the exaust side you take out the chrome bolt and you use the stock banjo bolt that you took out early and tie in there. The kit contains a longer banjo bolt the new oil line and a new fiiting that goes on the exaust side. The kit is supposed to keep the exause and intake side cool with oil. I just put one in 2 days ago.
You can get them from www.thumperstuff.com they are $48.00. It is called 1 1/2 high volume kit. You use existing oil line plus the high volume line to the exaust valve. He's got a lot of cool stuff.
check eBay seller "biebo" from Germany. He sells a dual top end oil line kit (single line with dual outlets for exhaust and inlet side of rocker box). I've fitted three of them to SR's and one to a TT and they work great. I also have a set of upper and lower oil lines that billalb made from my stock lines and they're great.
HTH
GC
p.s. and $48 is really cheap these days :)
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excellent! cheers!!
Damo